292 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:28 AM, said:

Actually clan mech trials are 100% just stock TRO prime variants.

Do they really need to be more than that?

[Knyx]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Did we all forget that tweet where Russ specifically said clan groups were winning over 63% of their matches a couple months back or is that one of those inconvenient truths you guys like to pretend never happened.

except he didn't, you are exaggerating. It was like 53-53%, and even 64% is still well within reason for the exact deduction I showed you above based on population imbalance vs ques.

I would be happy if there was an event where IS players can use the "top" clan mechs as salvage or whatever and clans get the quirk god IS mechs for like a week and all of them would be auto master tier for both sides. I'd bet 20k MC the clans would not only jump in pop for that week but wins/average damage per match and k/d of clan players would skyrocket.

Edited by Knyx, 27 April 2015 - 09:58 AM.

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Knyx, on 27 April 2015 - 09:50 AM, said:

except he didn't, you are exaggerating. It was like 53-53%, and even 64% is still well within reason for the exact deduction I showed you above based on population imbalance vs ques.

I would be happy if there was an event where IS players can use the "top" clan mechs as salvage or whatever and clans get the quirk god IS mechs for like a week. I'd bet 20k MC the clans would not only jump in pop for that week but wins/average damage per match and k/d of clan players would skyrocket.

And all of this still doesn't show inferiority or superiority of any side's mechs. CW is the worst way to try and prove that point.


As a filthy casual, I hate to use this argument, but what mechs are teams bringing in the, currently, only for money competition that exists for MWO, going on presently?

I'll tell you now, it isn't stalkers and thunderbolts,

[WarHippy]

Some of the Clan mechs are rather good, but even the holy trinity feel off after playing my IS mechs for awhile. I'm not saying the Clan mechs can't be or are not effective because that wouldn't be true, but they definitely feel significantly less efficient than a lot of the IS mechs as they are now. I keep going back to my IS mechs because they just plain feel better.

[km1710]

El Bandito, on 27 April 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

Yeah, one mech--and only one variant at that. One that is only competitive due to quirks--quirks that are frequently subject to change. Now compare that against Timbies and Crows, which are already top tier without any quirks, and will likely to remain so.

As long as it is the best one for the current gameplay type I experience, AND I can get the most of it in overall drop deck potential, I personally don't care if there is only one mech which shines over the others.*

I know that wolfes and crows are T1, but with the casual game strategy which tends to be pretty static, the current mix of hitbox / weapon placement / quirks of the STK is just better for me. Things will change, yes; I will just reevaluate my next "best" mech, and how is (are, if I can bring more) worthy on the whole drop deck configuration. Today, I find a STK dropdeck better than wolf/crow combinations; tomorrow it may be different.

I don't know about competitive gameplay dynamics, maybe for the top players the high mounted hardpoints would not be as fundamental as they are for me, leading to different evaluations.

*Just to clarify, I do not like that only three mechs are useful among ALL the others, and I think that quirks are not the solution to this issue, but a cheap workaround (as they are designed now).

[S13gtastic]

I'm finding myself less concerned with wether or not the Cheetah will be better than the top tier IS mechs and more just happy to have some variety for my drop decks. While you don't have to ever do the meta and some players have better luck with their own homegrown builds currently the way it is in CW it's better to min/max with the limited number of Clan mechs.


Oddly enough I thought it was kind of funny that the TK battle Clan Wolf was advised to carry only Laser weaponry the mirror in CW kinda makes me chuckle.

[Almond Brown]

Which would you prefer to drive if they were the ONLY 2 allowed?

Summoner-D (could tweak armor (lose 1 DHS) to match if needed) Heat profiles Match almost exactly.

vs
Cataphract-3D(C) - No slots for 1 more JJ, but with add 1.5t to even the Engines thing are super close.

Which is really the better Mech?

[Mirumoto Izanami]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Which would you prefer to drive if they were the ONLY 2 allowed?

Summoner-D (could tweak armor (lose 1 DHS) to match if needed) Heat profiles Match almost exactly.

vs
Cataphract-3D(C) - No slots for 1 more JJ, but with add 1.5t to even the Engines thing are super close.

Which is really the better Mech?

Summoner. CFT's hit boxes suck for XLs right now.

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2015 - 10:28 AM, said:

Which would you prefer to drive if they were the ONLY 2 allowed?

Summoner-D (could tweak armor (lose 1 DHS) to match if needed) Heat profiles Match almost exactly.

vs
Cataphract-3D(C) - No slots for 1 more JJ, but with add 1.5t to even the Engines thing are super close.

Which is really the better Mech?

Objectively, both suck balls.

Neither. Put a good build on at least one of them.

[WarHippy]

QuantumButler, on 27 April 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Did we all forget that tweet where Russ specifically said clan groups were winning over 63% of their matches a couple months back or is that one of those inconvenient truths you guys like to pretend never happened.

Did you forget that Russ also said the Clans had on average 100 more Elo than the IS during that event which would mean that those Clan teams based on Elo would have 63-64% chance of winning, or is that one of those inconvenient truths that guys like you tend to ignore?

[Almond Brown]

Mcgral18, on 27 April 2015 - 10:38 AM, said:

Objectively, both suck balls.

Neither. Put a good build on at least one of them.

Could have done, but went Stock Summoner and then matched with the CTF for comparisons. Can't do it the other way around.

Having 2 different load-outs would not make for a relatively fair comparison...

If you can do better? please...

Edited by Almond Brown, 27 April 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Almond Brown, on 27 April 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

Could have done, but went Stock Summoner and then matched with the CTF for comparisons. Can't do it the other way around.

Having 2 different load-outs would not make for a relatively fair comparison...

If you can do better? please...

Discounting any quirks, since I don't want to waste time.

SMN-D

If you wanted to do something similar:
CTF-3D


Or, if you didn't want to follow a hardpoint starved robot for no reason:
CTF-3D(C)


You see, it's not a Clam robot, you shouldn't be gimping your mechlab to prove a point.

[Kristov Kerensky]

You want to know where the real balance of power is in regards to the Inner Sphere vs Clan Mechs and weapons?

Look at where certain groups are playing, Clan or IS, and that will show you quite clearly which side has an actual advantage in the balance of power.

Currently that happens to be the Clans, not the Inner Sphere, even with the stupidly OP quirks some IS Mechs get, the Clans still out perform the Inner Sphere overall.

When -MS- departs Clan space for another House contract, that is when you know the balance has shifted to the Inner Sphere. And as someone already pointed out, look at what is being used in the money tourney, if you still try and insist that the Clans are weaker, you are either flat out lying or are incredibly unintelligent.

[Mcgral18]

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

You want to know where the real balance of power is in regards to the Inner Sphere vs Clan Mechs and weapons?

Look at where certain groups are playing, Clan or IS, and that will show you quite clearly which side has an actual advantage in the balance of power.

Currently that happens to be the Clans, not the Inner Sphere, even with the stupidly OP quirks some IS Mechs get, the Clans still out perform the Inner Sphere overall.

When -MS- departs Clan space for another House contract, that is when you know the balance has shifted to the Inner Sphere. And as someone already pointed out, look at what is being used in the money tourney, if you still try and insist that the Clans are weaker, you are either flat out lying or are incredibly unintelligent.

They have the two best robots; and quite a few worthless ones.


People won't use the terrible ones because they've been blanket nerfed multiple times to combat the two God Tier robots...which are still God Tier, while the others are still worthless.


Hurray

[Khobai]

Quote

Currently that happens to be the Clans, not the Inner Sphere, even with the stupidly OP quirks some IS Mechs get, the Clans still out perform the Inner Sphere overall.

Then why are the Clans losing Tukayyid? Clearly what youre saying isnt true.

+10 tons for IS changed everything.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Mcgral18, on 27 April 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

They have the two best robots; and quite a few worthless ones.


People won't use the terrible ones because they've been blanket nerfed multiple times to combat the two God Tier robots...which are still God Tier, while the others are still worthless.


Hurray

Yes, indeed, the Clans have the most powerful Mechs in the game currently, which also happen to perfectly coincide with the amount of tonnage the Clans get to drop with in CW so that the 2 top Mechs in the entire game comprise their entire dropdeck. Funny how that works out isn't it, that the top metaMechs in the game are Clan Mechs and also comprise the entire Clan dropdeck of the top comp teams.

I do agree that other Clan Mechs need some love, stated that many times, but overall the Clans are not underpowered, the non-Trinity are just not as effective as the Trinity, which is like saying a .308 Winchester isn't as powerful as Barrett .50, either way you have a powerful weapon, one is simply overkill compared to the other.

And lest we forget, the IS has far more less effective Mechs than they have top Mechs, ratio is way higher than the Clan's ratio of non-top to top, and few of the Clans Mechs are not better overall than their IS tonnage counterparts. Some are worse, that's true enough, and they definitely need some love. AC/uAC changes, shorter burn times on lasers or less heat or ghost heat changes like the IS got, those would make a real difference, along with some quirks to help with handling and such.

Khobai, on 27 April 2015 - 11:26 AM, said:

Then why are the Clans losing Tukayyid? Clearly what youre saying isnt true.

+10 tons for IS changed everything.

No, the reasons the Clans may be losing at this moment is simply due to who's playing for each Faction, which varies by the time of day. Yesterday, Sunday afternoon here in the United States, the Clans were winning with over 70%, that dropped all the way down to 60% around 10pm EST when I last checked before going to bed. If you watch the ratio throughout the day you'll see it constantly changes but the Clans generally have the winning advantage. I fully expected the Clans to win this event, but with the constant changes it could go either way depending on who does what in the last hour of the event. Since that happens to be during the middle of the day on a weekday for the NA, late night/early morning for the Pan-Oceanic and prime time European hours, it's really up for grabs still, I know there's a number of large organized units for both Factions in Europe, so who knows?

[Gyrok]

Adiuvo, on 25 April 2015 - 11:46 AM, said:

Does a Centurion have any chance of beating a Stormcrow? A Blackjack? A Vindicator? A Kintaro? A Trebuchet? Does a Cataphract have any chance of beating a Timberwolf? A Quickdraw? Catapult, Orion, Grasshopper?

I'd list all the rest, but I'd hope the point is clear.

A YLW does have a legitimate chance against a SCR...in fact, considering the PPFLD AC20 and quirks, the SCR might be the worse brawler. Let us not forget the WVR-6K either...

The TDR-5SS and STK-4N most certainly outclass the TW in what they do...there are areas where the TW will be ahead of them, however, in the wheelhouse of those mechs strengths, the TW flat out loses.

Kristov Kerensky, on 27 April 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

You want to know where the real balance of power is in regards to the Inner Sphere vs Clan Mechs and weapons?

Look at where certain groups are playing, Clan or IS, and that will show you quite clearly which side has an actual advantage in the balance of power.

Currently that happens to be the Clans, not the Inner Sphere, even with the stupidly OP quirks some IS Mechs get, the Clans still out perform the Inner Sphere overall.

When -MS- departs Clan space for another House contract, that is when you know the balance has shifted to the Inner Sphere. And as someone already pointed out, look at what is being used in the money tourney, if you still try and insist that the Clans are weaker, you are either flat out lying or are incredibly unintelligent.

MS was IS until monday...they switch weekly...

So your point was really that they are already well balanced now right?

QQ came over for mech bays and to play wolf for the event...(not sure why tbh, but, whatever)

Edited by Gyrok, 27 April 2015 - 01:58 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Gyrok, on 27 April 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

A YLW does have a legitimate chance against a SCR...in fact, considering the PPFLD AC20 and quirks, the SCR might be the worse brawler. Let us not forget the WVR-6K either...

The TDR-5SS and STK-4N most certainly outclass the TW in what they do...there are areas where the TW will be ahead of them, however, in the wheelhouse of those mechs strengths, the TW flat out loses.



MS was IS until monday...they switch weekly...

So your point was really that they are already well balanced now right?

QQ came over for mech bays and to play wolf for the event...(not sure why tbh, but, whatever)

-MS- was Clan last week and the week before as well, they've been Clan since the TBolt quirks were toned down. QQ, like you said, doing the rotation thing, quite a few units and individuals are doing that it, SRM is even doing it a bit, but we stick with Inner Sphere units, Steiner, FRR and Kurita, just love fighting against the Clans. Dropped against some of yours a few times now Gyrok, and I must say, good players all around, I commend you on your training and command practices.

Overall, like I said, the Clans are slightly ahead of the Inner Sphere on the balance of power, but it's very small margin and some of the IS quirks are pushing that margin even closer. But we've been over that and we both agree that the Clan non-Trinity Mechs really need some love.

[Lily from animove]

Knyx, on 27 April 2015 - 06:54 AM, said:

That's like saying you are not convinced 1+1=2


It is really simple..

If there are say 45-50 IS groups in que AND all the planet slots have matches going on, let's say 15 of those are premades mixed in (Id say 15 is beyond pushing it).

Now let's say there are only enough clan groups to have maybe 3-6 in que on primetime, sometimes no full groups in que at all. Now lets say with those matches already goin on and the que there may be 5 or so clan premades. If the IS que times averages at 20 minutes to 1 hr, and the clan que times I near instant those clan premades are gonna get to have like multiple matches to every 1 match one of those IS premades get. Therefore those clan premades are gonna be doing a lot of pub stomping, ergo padding the win %

this implies that those clanpremades will face pugs next, which is not actually happening all the time.

[Adiuvo]

Mcgral18, on 27 April 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

They have the two best robots; and quite a few worthless ones.


People won't use the terrible ones because they've been blanket nerfed multiple times to combat the two God Tier robots...which are still God Tier, while the others are still worthless.


Hurray

They have 4 useless mechs. 4 mediocre, and 4 excellent.

Useless: Mist Lynx, Adder, Ice Ferret, Gargoyle

Mediocre: Kit Fox, Nova, Mad Dog, Warhawk

Excellent: Stormcrow, Timberwolf, Hellbringer, Daishi

This really isn't that far off from what the IS has, and yet you don't see people constantly asking for buffs to those first before fixing the broken mechs.

I've said this multiple times, but the framing this as a clan vs. IS problem is completely stupid. Game balance applies to everything and everyone.