23 replies to this topic

[Gaussfather]

So after fighting in Tukkayid for the last 20 drops I can observe that the ATTACK mode/objective is much easier than the COUNTER-ATTACK that IS has to always do.

IS can never use its superior lights to zerg rush: We always have to grind and win by attrition no matter which drop we get as Defense or Counter-Attack requires us to usually kill all the Clan mechs to win the sector (unless time expires).

On the other hand, Clanners are using their speedy Mediums & Heavies to rush to the Gens to great effect on maps like Borreal or Tiago, etc. A few rushes and they win the match and claim the sector. Since they never have to really defend it feels more like an uphill battle for the IS.

I think the Attack mode objectives need to be redesigned by PGI after this event. Its never been a great game mode in my opinion. Generators on the gates out in the open, attackers having to funnel to 2 gates next to each other, etc. Any thoughts?

[QueenBlade]

I was thinking something more in line with not being able to damage other objectives without first taking down front line objectives.

How LoL you have to take down turrets before base objectives would be allowed to be damaged.

Perhaps something where the attackers are split up by lances and must push forward as lances against the defender's lances. Like outposts or firebases located in front of the main alpha / beta gates. And the attackers have to take all three bases before being able to damage the alpha / beta gates. Then the attacker has to take down the gate gens before being able to damage the omega gens. And finally take down the omega gens before being able to take down Omega.
The defenders would initial spawn at each firebase, but when they died they would respawn back near omega behind the alpha / beta gates (like it is now).

Idea here is that battles would start out as 4 v 4, then through advancing the battle line end with 12 v 12 combat.

[ScreamingSkull]

You do realize that both sides have to counter attack depending on how the battle is going? All Friday we had nothing but counter attack.

[Pineapple Salad]

ScreamingSkull, on 26 April 2015 - 12:53 PM, said:

You do realize that both sides have to counter attack depending on how the battle is going? All Friday we had nothing but counter attack.

I'm pretty sure attackers do not have to counter attack. All I've had this weekend is Attack and Hold Territory.

In my opinion, one of the reasons why CW is so boring is that majority of the map area goes unused. I'd like to see some secondary objectives and attack phases that would require the defending team to move around and fall back when the objectives get taken out.

Edited by Pineapple Salad, 26 April 2015 - 12:57 PM.

[QueenBlade]

Attackers have to defend the counter-attack.

[AEgg]

My experience (as a solo only player) is almost always the reverse. I've only seen a handful of attacks succeed (less than 10%), regardless of whether clan or IS is attacking. As best as I can tell, the only way to win an attack is to be vastly more organized than your opponent (in which case you'll win no matter how bad the odds are) or to rush gens and not fight your opponent at all (which randoms cant do since half the team always ignores any orders to move forward).

[Estonniel]

I maybe InnerSphere, but come on. do half of you play CW just to Light rush ? and kill a power generator and a Cannon Battery ? i Rather Wreak face in any possible way. Clans Cant Zerg Rush yet that effective as IS can atm, but soon they will. ones Wave 3 is there. Learn to Fight IS. its not all about Gens and Guns.

[Balder Lodbrokk]

Well yet he has a point in that attacking / defending a counter is usually the "easier" side to play. so it is playing into the hands of the coordinated Clan Groups. But well, thats what the lore is. We are defending this planet. They attack it. Gameplay wise it would make sense to let IS be Invasion forces too, and Clan be the defenders.

[Odins Fist]

ZOMG... CLANS ARE OP...!!!!

[Gaussfather]

I like fighting mechs which is why I don't like the Zerg Rush tactic - its more of an "exploit" than a fun way to play MWO. But as long as the Attack Mode is only about killing Omega then Zerg Rushing is viable tactic. And its hard to stop when its done properly.

Anyway, this Tukkayid challenge is fun because we have a lot of people playing at the same time. Otherwise I think PGI needs to improve CW goals, maps, etc. Because its pretty repetitive and I wish we had a way to fight on more of the map space as people here have mentioned. It needs some serious changes to give it more longevity.

Edited by Jman88, 26 April 2015 - 07:25 PM.

[Dino Might]

Clans have all the strategic advantage (though the magnitude of the advantage isn't entirely overwhelming). They have a limited field of battle, which favors the stronger, smaller force. IS cannot overwhelm multiple fronts with numbers. They have more organized units with tougher mechs better able to adapt different playstyles with the same mechs. They can poke, brawl, and gen rush all with the same dropdeck, so they don't have to play rock, paper, scissors roulette.

The mechs, when each in their respective niche, actually slightly favor an IS tactical advantage, but the way this event is set up, the Clans are less often forced to remain in a particular niche than the IS are. If mode selections were completely random, I think we'd see a pretty balanced 50% average Clan vs. IS win, and I'd say we're actually fairly balanced (when you average everything out) right now. The problem is that though the average balance exists, the single case extremes are still far too variable for my liking.

Edited by Dino Might, 26 April 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[Zordicron]

CW top two issues:
Gen rush
Spawn camps

This game is, without a doubt, about shooting giant robots with your own giant robot. Spawn camping removes the fighting part for half the equation. Gen rush removes all of it.

I am not even sure if these are on Russ' radar. These two things can take a good, close match with intense fighting and turn it into a landslide of frustration. Case in point: my pug group had a match on the emerald defending. We actually had the ghost bear unit I will not name down to their last ten mechs. They zerg rushed them(all TBR and crow laser boats) and we simply couldnt put them down fast enough to prevent the generator from blowing. I am not ure what the solution is, or I should say, the easy solution. One could quadruple the generator HP, but that basically would mean the only way to win is through mech destruction. IMO they need more objectives like turret defended shiled genrators(or like mini gates around the omega) that force attackers into the deep part of the base against automated defenses. That would allow the defenders more time to destroy them, and also help against light rush. Maybe make some Streak turrets lol.

I dunno, CW has this potential for huge fun. IMO, it needs seperate group/solo and the gen rush and spawn camping need to be ended, quickly. Like right now. Spawn camping, FFS, that is stuff developers figured out how to stop in the 90's. hoardes of Steam players coming soon will not put up with archaic oversights like that, not matter how hard the try hards attempt to justify it.

[Helaton]

If anything, all CW points out if the weakness of other mechs.

Clans:
Timbers, Hellbringers, Stormcrows (you may see other stuff or trials, but you will basically just see these 3 95% of the time)

You will see a very light peppering of Dires, Kit Foxes, Mad Dogs, Gargoyles and Adders.

Everything else doesn't get played in CW for clans. Trust me, we'd like to have variation in our decks just as much as you would like to see it. Some of our mechs are horrible liabilities if we take them in to the wrong maps or altogether a liability in general. (Warhawks, Ice Ferrets, Dires on some maps,)

Out of 13 mechs, you see these 3 mechs for a reason. If we take other mechs, we won't be competitive or even balanced/equal. You can compare it as participating in formula with an advanced engine but don't ask us to downgrade to a minivan for a Race just because it is thought to be unfair.

IS:
Atlas, Stalkers (mostly these), King Crabs, Banshees, Battlemasters (And that's just assaults)
Dragons, Hunchbacks, Griffins, Enforcers, Centurion, Catapuls, Cataphracts, Thunderbolts (mostly these), Blackjacks, Wolverines, Jagermechs
Firestarters, Ravens (Been seeing these two in equal amounts), some Spiders & Panthers, Cicadas (plays like a light)

All of the above more or less have been played very effectively under good pilots (annoyingly so to my detriment and wrecked mech decks in some shape or form.) I will say I was happy to see new Stalker variations and loadouts tonight instead of same old 6 LL from the past few days.

Only mechs I haven't seen more than once are Orions, Grasshoppers, Kintaros, Commandos, Victors, Zeus, Highlanders, Awesomes, Locusts. This would suggest these mechs might need a little more attention or some of the above are taking too much attention. (Or they just aren't good enough compared to other mechs in the same weight class due to boating).

---

In short we can agree: You're tired of us dropping in the same thing, we're tired of us dropping in the same thing, we're tired of fighting the same IS deck (STK/TDR/FS) with the same thing.

[Gaussfather]

Thanks Guys for the good and constructive comments... I agree with Helaton -- I'm tired of shooting and being killed 90% of the time by Stormcrows and Timberwolves

A couple of ideas/quick fixes to make the Attack/Defend mode more fun:

1) Have the first defender wave drop OUTSIDE the Gates so it starts off like skirmish mode... remaining waves drop inside the base. This would force a quick battle in more of the map terrain, and improve the dynamic of the game (right now it feels totally choreographed for both sides).

2) Upgrade the Gate defenses -- put turrets at the gates with Pulse Lasers and ER PPCs and Triple the number of them. And seriously... having the Gens for the gates in such an obvious/open place is silly. Put it somewhere more difficult to hit but maybe lower the HP on it. Make some lights have to jumpjet the gate and narc it to take it out.

3) Spawn Camping --- Get rid of dropship ER Lasers but triple the fire power in the short/medium range. Maybe add missiles or pulse lasers. Basically make the Spawn zone a death by dropship if you decide to camp there....

Maybe 3 is bad idea but I'm not sure how else to fix the Spawn camp... maybe moving the drop site to different/random locations in the base is best idea? Right now they are too close together and predictable.

Edited by Jman88, 27 April 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[Areus]

What I would like to see added to CW is a change in the drop decks alltogether from tonnage restrictions to having to drop 1 light, 1 medium, 1 heavy, and 1 assault mech. This should add more variation to drop decks compared to seeing Stormcrow / Hellbringer / Timberwolf vs Stalker / Raven / Thunderbolt drops.

[sycocys]

Defending the counter-attack (holding) is still vastly easier than than performing the counter attack.

You only have 1 win condition to deal with - more kills.

That's why you see teams blobbing out to the other teams spawn point.

I didn't really notice the difference in difficulty before because my unit generally attacks to take planets, but it really is pretty lopsided in favor of the attacking team - the results would be the exact opposite if we had Tuk with IS attacking immediately after this one ended.

Even totally discounting light rushes, IS can do the same med-heavy zerg on the attack and just hold for the kill lead or push to spawns with the same efficiency. Attacking is just plain easier.

[Apnu]

For the Attacking team, Union class drop ship sitting at the LZ non-stop as the spawn point.

PGI has a lot of work done on it, as Russ says. He worried about the players trying to get out of it, I think he was thinking of having one door and 12 players trying to use it at the same time. This is not necessary.

The Union has 4 mech bay doors, Alpha, Beta and Charlie lances can each use one door. Cut the interior of the union into thirds for this reason.

The union's armaments are: 6 LRM-20s, 6 Large Lasers, 3 PPCs, 6 AC/5s, and 12 Medium Lasers

Have that sitting at the LZ and it alone can wipe out a lance of mechs. Plus the thing would be indestructible because its the spawn point for each attacking player.

While were're at it, change the attackers waves to be coordinated. So after everybody died or ejected from wave 1, they all spawn in the Union for Wave 2 and so forth. Let the defenders still land in leopards with the LLs as normal.

Do that today and spawn camping will end tomorrow.

Edited by Apnu, 27 April 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[CK16]

An IS player complain about rushing gens?...Never thought I would see this day. No offense but really do most IS players always have to find something to complain about with Clanners? I mean you know how many times vs NS and other Light rushing units we got out ass handed to us in less then 5 mins? Winning is everything right now to us...and to do so with least amount of casualties is our goal. Best way to stop our rushes? Shoot our legs we don't run that fast that we get lag shield (or stupid hit boxes UH HMM Fire starters!)

[Aresye]

sycocys, on 27 April 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Defending the counter-attack (holding) is still vastly easier than than performing the counter attack.

Must be nice, considering for this event you can actually GET counter attacks. Now perhaps if your FRR buddies could relinquish back about 30 of our planets you took by swarming the attack queue and preventing us from getting a single counter attack, that would be great!

[sycocys]

Not complaining about it at all here - highly stupid but at the same time valid strategy for this poorly designed event.

The issue I'm personally noting is that the balance of attack versus defense is heavily skewed in the favor of the attacking force when it comes down to the matches. My team didn't drop much defense before so I hadn't really noticed, but now I can compare the two and it's pretty glaring how far off it is.

Much, much easier to be the attacking force than the defending force, also makes since why recently you almost never match up to good teams when you attack.

Aresye Kerensky, on 27 April 2015 - 10:45 AM, said:

Must be nice, considering for this event you can actually GET counter attacks. Now perhaps if your FRR buddies could relinquish back about 30 of our planets you took by swarming the attack queue and preventing us from getting a single counter attack, that would be great!

OLD has 10 total planets, and I assure you we earned those with our single 12 man at a time group. Can't really say much for the rest of the FRR groups as they formed some sort of silly council that we don't take part in. But yes when we do manage to get counter attacks(hold) you notice we only focus on the 1 goal that matters -- kill lead, and generally do that very well - very unbalanced for the team on the defense side that has to do both.

Edited by sycocys, 27 April 2015 - 10:59 AM.