64 replies to this topic

[Sable]

Lots of large lasers and gauss everywhere. Partly from quirks, partly from the ghost heat change for IS mechs, but man all i see these days are blue lasers. People will always boat what they feel like is most effective it's just sad to see MWO come so far and then fall back into the same rut that has plagued all previous MW titles.

[happy mech]

gauss will need to be looked at again at some point

large lasers are more heat efficient than medium lasers, also quirked a lot
some mechs have only lasers and missiles, and not all missiles are useful for direct fire or long range
however, IS cannot compete currently vs the clans if not for the blue lasers, so setting a fixed heat cap to prevent alphas on both sides and then forcing clans to use something other than energy boats will make you see less blue lasers

[Kh0rn]

I had a system call hard point restriction size where is if the mech had a med laser in that arm it could only fit the max a medium too small laser other wise the energy feeds would overload as the rigging was not set too handle a larger energy type. Same for all other types of weapons.

[Mister Blastman]

Sable, on 28 April 2015 - 06:00 AM, said:

Lots of large lasers and gauss everywhere. Partly from quirks, partly from the ghost heat change for IS mechs, but man all i see these days are blue lasers. People will always boat what they feel like is most effective it's just sad to see MWO come so far and then fall back into the same rut that has plagued all previous MW titles.

MWO has the same problems as MW 4 because it shares a common problem between the two (and Mechwarrior 3): CONVERGENCE!

Remove convergence and you begin to fix things (without a random cone of fire)--just remove it, altogether. More work would need to be done but that'd be a huge start.

[Joseph Mallan]

I do believe that people will complain about just about everything.

[Vandul]

FYI, LL/ERLL boating was going on when dice and pencils were all the rage too.

[Khobai]

Quote

FYI, LL/ERLL boating was going on when dice and pencils were all the rage too.

I remember tabletop being gauss, ppcs, and medium lasers... all the other weapons in TT are useless.

[Alistair Winter]

Gauss is everywhere because they're the best ballistic right now and a good way to add firepower without adding heat. Ideally, this should be the case for all ballistics, to some extent. But ballistics in this game are almost as hot as lasers, without having enough advantages to make up for that fact. Ideally, there should be some level of synergy in a mixed build, where the different weapon types complement each other. That's not happening in MWO.

UACs are fairly underwhelming, unless you're equipping several UAC5s. Most ACs are the same. The LBX is just a joke. The biggest selling point for new mechs in mech packs is the number of energy hardpoints.

Laser quirks in this game are completely off the charts, and what does PGI do to make ballistics a viable alternative? They give the Kit Fox a -5% spread on its LBX. ggclose.

Enjoy the goose waffels.

[DaZur]

NO WAY!... The apex weapons in TT and previous MW games are apex weapons in MW:O?!

[Almond Brown]

Alistair Winter, on 28 April 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

Gauss is everywhere because they're the best ballistic right now and a good way to add firepower without adding heat. Ideally, this should be the case for all ballistics, to some extent. But ballistics in this game are almost as hot as lasers, without having enough advantages to make up for that fact. Ideally, there should be some level of synergy in a mixed build, where the different weapon types complement each other. That's not happening in MWO.

UACs are fairly underwhelming, unless you're equipping several UAC5s. Most ACs are the same. The LBX is just a joke. The biggest selling point for new mechs in mech packs is the number of energy hardpoints.

Laser quirks in this game are completely off the charts, and what does PGI do to make ballistics a viable alternative? They give the Kit Fox a -5% spread on its LBX. ggclose.

Enjoy the goose waffels.

Although "synergy" is a nice "concept", the practical application would simply trade the current "status quo" for another "status quo". Add in weapon synergies and, a lot like Quirks, within 2 hours, there would be only 2-3 Mechs (per side) with the best "synergy setup(s)" and off we would go again.

[Zookeeper Dan]

Khobai, on 28 April 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I remember tabletop being gauss, ppcs, and medium lasers... all the other weapons in TT are useless.

Yeah, key to making a mech in TT was as many ML's as you can fit coupled by enough heat sinks to fire them all every turn.

[Almond Brown]

Hate to say this but ALL Energy weapons in MWO need to have their HEAT doubled (2X) if not 3X.

TT/BT 10 seconds to "unload everything". Alpha or not.

MWO "unload everything" 3.3X in 10 seconds (ML's as per example). Is there actually anything but the "Alpha Button" in MWO anymore?

[Alistair Winter]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2015 - 07:47 AM, said:

Although "synergy" is a nice "concept", the practical application would simply trade the current "status quo" for another "status quo". Add in weapon synergies and, a lot like Quirks, within 2 hours, there would be only 2-3 Mechs (per side) with the best "synergy setup(s)" and off we would go again.

Yes, there's always going to be a status quo, as long as the game doesn't change every day. This line of reasoning is right out of Russ Bullock's mouth, but it ultimately makes very little sense. The fact that some metagame will always establish itself, or that competitive players will always look for the best mech, no matter how little edge it provides, is no excuse to keep working towards that goal.

And frankly, the metagame right now is as low skill as it's ever been. Even AC40 Jagerbombs, SRM Splatcats and poptarts required more skill than boating lasers.

Ideally, the metagame should encourage synergy between 2 or 3 different weapon categories (energy, missile, ballistic), as almost all mechs in this game have the capacity to carry 2 or 3 different weapon categories, and indeed come with those weapon stock. Laserboats and ballistic boats and missile boats, which carry only a single category of weapon (e.g. lasers) or even one specific type of weapon (e.g. MPLs) should be rather unique variants, that are quirked to be effective despite the lack of quirks. PPC boats shouldn't the norm, but the AWS-8Q should be quirked to make PPC boating work, for example.

But PGI has taken the opposite approach. The Thunderbolt with its iconic PPC and missile launcher is just an MPL boat. The Stalker with its combination of missiles and lasers is just a LL boat. Even the Timber Wolf, arguably the most iconic mech in the MW series, is normally seen just boating lasers.

Encouraging people to rely on different weapon groups means that it requires more skill to effectively use meta-builds. That's the way it should be. But right now, balanced builds are regarded as some "hardcore mode" for TT enthusiasts, while most people just boat lasers. It's the opposite of good game design.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 28 April 2015 - 07:43 AM, said:

NO WAY!... The apex weapons in TT and previous MW games are apex weapons in MW:O?!

To date, TT players are trying to disprove that the Medium Laser is the hands down best weapon ever. Been going on for the (almost) 14 years I've been a HeavyMetalPro member.

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

Hate to say this but ALL Energy weapons in MWO need to have their HEAT doubled (2X) if not 3X.

TT/BT 10 seconds to "unload everything". Alpha or not.

MWO "unload everything" 3.3X in 10 seconds (ML's as per example). Is there actually anything but the "Alpha Button" in MWO anymore?

OR we need to get rid of or reduce heat quirks!

But I happen to like to see weapons being fired when I'm fighting so I'm not one to support this line of thinking.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 28 April 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Alistair Winter, on 28 April 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

Encouraging people to rely on different weapon groups means that it requires more skill to effectively use meta-builds. That's the way it should be. But right now, balanced builds are regarded as some "hardcore mode" for TT enthusiasts, while most people just boat lasers. It's the opposite of good game design.

They way you kill boating is by preventing weapons from converging to a fixed point. Once you do this you force players to take a mix of things.

Want to do 20 points to a single point? Take an AC/20. Want to shred people up close? Take SRMs. Want to range people and hurt them? Take a couple PPCs or Gauss and use them deliberately. Want to annoy people? Tickle them with lasers from afar.

The weapons start to mean something more than how many you can stack into a single firing group. Since they no longer converge into one point you have to adapt to variety... or learn how to be really great at firing one by one and adjusting your reticle while being exposed the entire time.

[Roadkill]

Khobai, on 28 April 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I remember tabletop being gauss, ppcs, and medium lasers... all the other weapons in TT are useless.

Clan MPL with Targeting Computers are far from useless in TT.

My group stopped letting me design Mechs.

Or did you mean "medium lasers" generically to include pulse versions?

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 28 April 2015 - 06:47 AM, said:

I remember tabletop being gauss, ppcs, and medium lasers... all the other weapons in TT are useless.

So you play at home... or 3075 TRO.

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Well, the game is about disabling/destroying enemy mechs as quickly as possible. Boating helps ensure that damage is concentrated on a single location. The advantages of mixed loadouts just do not stack up to that advantage. If LRMs were almost as dangerous as lasers at direct fire people might take them because they also offer indirect fire. Ballistics offer better damage to heat efficiency, and Gauss fills this role nicely. The other ballistics just aren't as good at it.

Mostly, it is just that lasers are good weapons with no serious drawbacks. They do good accurate damage for high heat, but you should be able to pile on the DHS since they are light weight. SRMs are niche, but they perform well in that role. LRMs are unreliable at any range. It is also hard to defensively twist when using them. Ballistics are just so heavy (fewer DHS for your backup lasers) for the damage they bring, are ammo dependent, and are either short range or require one to stare at the opponent.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Rouken, on 28 April 2015 - 08:58 AM, said:

Well, the game is about disabling/destroying enemy mechs as quickly as possible. Boating helps ensure that damage is concentrated on a single location. The advantages of mixed loadouts just do not stack up to that advantage. If LRMs were almost as dangerous as lasers at direct fire people might take them because they also offer indirect fire. Ballistics offer better damage to heat efficiency, and Gauss fills this role nicely. The other ballistics just aren't as good at it.

Mostly, it is just that lasers are good weapons with no serious drawbacks. They do good accurate damage for high heat, but you should be able to pile on the DHS since they are light weight. SRMs are niche, but they perform well in that role. LRMs are unreliable at any range. It is also hard to defensively twist when using them. Ballistics are just so heavy (fewer DHS for your backup lasers) for the damage they bring, are ammo dependent, and are either short range or require one to stare at the opponent.

Lasers drawback is burn time

[Malcolm Vordermark]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 28 April 2015 - 09:48 AM, said:

Lasers drawback is burn time

None of their burn times are bad enough to be a serious drawback.