64 replies to this topic

[Steinar Bergstol]

Get rid of pinpoint damage and get rid of customization in the mechlab. Problem solved. Of course I've been saying that since before closed Beta. You Balance the game based on stock mechs, and only when _that_ is done do you start thinking about allowing customization, and then only in a way which limits it so it doesn't break the stock Balance.

Balancing based on what the players will do if they're given almost free reign to customize as they want is doomed to failure, because players are by nature cheesy little twinks.

[Stealth Fox]

I don't agree with you about what you said before (how ever Living Legends did this and it works amazingly) how ever.. i must say.. this part here..

Steinar Bergstol, on 29 April 2015 - 12:32 AM, said:

Balancing based on what the players will do if they're given almost free reign to customize as they want is doomed to failure, because players are by nature cheesy little twinks.

Made me laugh pretty damn hard. .. it's to terribly true.

[Thorqemada]

Long Range Weapons have not Short Range disadvantage (aside of the IS PPC and LRM) and so they fit you well on all Maps in every Situation = bad balance.

[SaltBeef]

If The Clans had viable ballistics weapons out side of the Guass you would see much less laser vomit Burfing!

[Joseph Mallan]

SaltBeef, on 29 April 2015 - 02:41 AM, said:

If The Clans had viable ballistics weapons out side of the Guass you would see much less laser vomit Burfing!

I feel your pain!
UAC20 is not a scary weapon in this game.

[Throat Punch]

Joseph Mallan, on 29 April 2015 - 04:57 AM, said:

I feel your pain!
UAC20 is not a scary weapon in this game.

OMG, I know you remember playing against AC/20 mechs in TT. 1 shot would ruin your day. Thats all it took. 1 shot and bam PSR. Thats not even counting the other damage from other weapons! Fail the piloting skill roll and down you go and you better hope you don't fail to see if you black out from the fall. I hated AC/20 mechs more then any other weapon.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mors Draco, on 29 April 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

OMG, I know you remember playing against AC/20 mechs in TT. 1 shot would ruin your day. Thats all it took. 1 shot and bam PSR. Thats not even counting the other damage from other weapons! Fail the piloting skill roll and down you go and you better hope you don't fail to see if you black out from the fall. I hated AC/20 mechs more then any other weapon.

I usually drove them! Like I said a few times. I like knock out punching!

[The Ratfink]

AntiCitizenJuan, on 28 April 2015 - 10:05 AM, said:

Fix Heat Scale by lowering total amount of heat.
Make SHS up total heat scale from the new amount, make DHS 2.0 dissipation.

Make it so Gauss Rifles can only fire one at a time.
Increase long range weapon cooldowns by 1 second each.

I have discussed this idea a few times and think its the only good solution going around. Make people build for Alpha or DPS.

Combine this with separating the structure and armour upgrades so you build for weight or Hit Points.

Finally make the elite skill tier different for each weight class so they are more specialised, light and medium sensors and speed agility. Heavies and Assaults tankiness and dmg.

We then may be able to have more balance and also choices in how we build stuff.

[Josef Koba]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

MWO "unload everything" 3.3X in 10 seconds (ML's as per example). Is there actually anything but the "Alpha Button" in MWO anymore?

Honestly, I rarely use the alpha button. I use it so rarely that it's last use is quite present in my mind: Last week I alpha struck using my AC/20, 2 x SRM6+A, 2 Medium Pulse Laser Jager. I don't think I've used it twice in the last six months.

I have a few builds that boat weapons, but not many, and most of them are missiles, I believe (primarily for PUGing). My Nova boats lasers as does my Stalker (4N?) with large lasers (x4). But I personally find having so many energy weapons to be far too hot for my tastes. Even with the heat efficiency quirks on the Stalker and something like 24 DHS, you can't really alpha much. And since I like to feel like I'm doing something rather than waiting to cool down most of the match, I chain fire. But I don't think I've brought either the Nova or the Stalker into a match more than four times in the past six months either. I can't speak for everyone, but I prefer mixed builds that allow me to engage at different ranges and in different situations. One of my favorite builds is my D-DC. I got 2 x AC/5s, a couple of SRMs, and some large lasers. It's probably not meta, I don't think. Another is my Battlemaster with some medium lasers (that are way too hot to fire all at once most of the time), a PPC, and an LRM10. The LRM is for opening stages, the PPC for intermediate range direct fire, and given that the PPC is useless under 90, the mediums come into play.

One of the bigger issues with ammo dependent weapons these days is CW. Once your ammo runs dry, there's no point in staying in your mech. With energy weapons, you can go forever. And since there's more incentive to boat, there aren't a lot of mixed builds in CW which would allow you to continue the fight even after your main guns run dry. I'm not saying that I want to see any sort of resupply on CW maps, just that this might be one incentive to run primarily energy based builds even in the public queue. Personally, I love my ballistics, and I even love the big LBs that the clans have.

[Gyrok]

The Ratfink, on 29 April 2015 - 05:44 AM, said:

I have discussed this idea a few times and think its the only good solution going around. Make people build for Alpha or DPS.

Combine this with separating the structure and armour upgrades so you build for weight or Hit Points.

Finally make the elite skill tier different for each weight class so they are more specialised, light and medium sensors and speed agility. Heavies and Assaults tankiness and dmg.

We then may be able to have more balance and also choices in how we build stuff.

Double Gauss is far from an issue...does it suck to hear that gauss "thump" when you are in your mech? Sure, but Gauss should be something respected.

I see no reason to neuter more weapons. The more weapons you neuter, the more deathball meta gains traction. Why? Because it will take too damn long to kill a mech by yourself, you will have to have buddies.

[Fate 6]

Mister Blastman, on 28 April 2015 - 06:36 AM, said:

MWO has the same problems as MW 4 because it shares a common problem between the two (and Mechwarrior 3): CONVERGENCE!

Remove convergence and you begin to fix things (without a random cone of fire)--just remove it, altogether. More work would need to be done but that'd be a huge start.

No convergence with no random cone means everyone just takes mechs with all the weapons clustered - Nova, Wolverine, HBK, etc. Nova with 6ERML would become meta and trust me that wouldn't be fun

[MoonfireSpam]

Can't stop players from picking the best gear. Any game will get "broken" this way, can't be stopped.

[DaZur]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

No convergence with no random cone means everyone just takes mechs with all the weapons clustered - Nova, Wolverine, HBK, etc. Nova with 6ERML would become meta and trust me that wouldn't be fun

This is the thing so many people don't understand...

"Meta" is a fluid dynamic of the player base adapting to change and naturally flowing to the most optimum apex composite of chassis, load-out and hit-box.

While purely hyperbole... If MW:O was distilled down to a beige rectangle with a single small laser... "that" would be the meta.

The reality is "meta" is inevitable and unavoidable.

Edited by DaZur, 29 April 2015 - 12:50 PM.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Kh0rn, on 28 April 2015 - 06:26 AM, said:

I had a system call hard point restriction size where is if the mech had a med laser in that arm it could only fit the max a medium too small laser other wise the energy feeds would overload as the rigging was not set too handle a larger energy type. Same for all other types of weapons.

Only issue with that idea is it alone wont fix anything., All that would do is further limit the number and types of mechs we see in game. IE: Those with big enough slots to boat Gauss and LL or LPL....

What needs to happen is Long Range weapons need to be made in such a way that they are clearly outclassed outside of long range engagements. Medium and short range weapons need to own the medium/short range field. Gauss/PPC/LL/LPL in a short-mid range engagement should be a serious oooops moment.

ITs not unlike when in Mechcommander I would load all my mechs up with PPC/Gauss/CERLL/LRMS and all the big hard hitting stuff and then wonder why I would get tooled so horribly by a couple of firestarter J's who would jump in my face.....and my guys would sit there looking stupid. It was MC's range restriction that clearly defined what weapons to bring to what engagement. It forced balanced builds. Now I know that cant work in MWO, but that game had a system that forced balanced builds. MWO needs a system that does the same.

[Mister Blastman]

Fate 6, on 29 April 2015 - 12:13 PM, said:

No convergence with no random cone means everyone just takes mechs with all the weapons clustered - Nova, Wolverine, HBK, etc. Nova with 6ERML would become meta and trust me that wouldn't be fun

I'd prefer that over a cone. Random shot placement has no business in a FPS.

[1453 R]

Mister Blastman, on 29 April 2015 - 04:50 PM, said:

I'd prefer that over a cone. Random shot placement has no business in a FPS.

And yet you're advocating the death of convergence, which pretty much flat requires cones of fire and attendant bullscheissery.

Either you want to aim or you don't, man - which would you prefer?

P.S. - can we pretty, pretty, PRETTY PLEASE stop talking about convergence already?

[Mister Blastman]

1453 R, on 29 April 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

And yet you're advocating the death of convergence, which pretty much flat requires cones of fire and attendant bullscheissery.

Either you want to aim or you don't, man - which would you prefer?

P.S. - can we pretty, pretty, PRETTY PLEASE stop talking about convergence already?

It doesn't require a cone of fire. It requires manually aiming each weapon individually.

And no, we can't stop. It is one of the BIGGEST problems in this game and has been since Mechwarrior 3. It isn't going away.

[Yokaiko]

heh this circle jerk again.

[1453 R]

Mister Blastman, on 29 April 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

It doesn't require a cone of fire. It requires manually aiming each weapon individually.

And no, we can't stop. It is one of the BIGGEST problems in this game and has been since Mechwarrior 3. It isn't going away.

Okay. Here we go again.

Say you get your wish, and every weapon in every ‘Mech that is not at the end of a fully articulated arm fires dead straight ahead of its mount, regardless of whatever, ignoring the crosshair completely and becoming effectively impossible to aim. Know what happens?

I take my Stormcrow, I buy the SCR-B right arm, I pack six medium lasers into it, and I stuff the entirety of the rest of the ‘Mech with heat sinks. I then proceed to completely obliterate your whatever-you’re-in that comes into the field with an LRM-10, an SRM-4, a Streak SRM-2, an AC/5, two medium lasers, a small laser, and a flamer. Because no amount of convergence hammering, or decoupling ‘aiming’ from ‘hitting’ will make that sort of total-moron scattered-to-the-four-winds build good, no matter how badly you guys want utterly, appallingly awful TT builds to be good.

Do a cone of fire effect instead? I’ll use the same Stormcrow, load it with SRM launchers, and proceed to utterly pwnooblerate anything and everything other than other SRM boats, because the ability to engage a target beyond SRM range will have been effectively removed from the game because people have this horrible horrible aversion to being able to hit what they aim at. SRMs become overwhelmingly dominant, 900% superior to every other weapon type in the game, because SRMs are by nature a spreadfire CoF weapon and are balanced as such, whereas having your AC/5 miss by over fifteen MoA is not only well beyond what it was balanced to do, but is also a complete and utter travesty of weapon design in general. Blackpowder cannons in the sixteen hundreds were more accurate than that.

I’m going to tell you a secret, Blastman. It’s going to blow your mind, you may want to sit down before you read it. Ready, man? All right, here it is:

Firing more than one gun at a time means you deal more damage. Dealing more damage means you kill your enemy faster, so he has less time to deal damage to you, and you’re better able to deal with the next guy in line.

No one and nothing will ever get people to deliberately chainfire. It won’t happen. Players will do whatever they have to in order to win fights, and winning fights means dealing a lot of damage in short amounts of time so they can get back into cover and evade enemy counterattacks, or so they can outdamage their enemies and drop them before they are themselves dropped. That means firing more than one weapon at a time. That means creating ‘Mechs with sensible weapons loads that work well together, not grabbing one of everything and pretending like you have all the bases covered.

That means hitting what you aim at, as hard as you can, as often as you can, while minimizing the enemy’s ability to do the same. And if people keep insisting on removing the ability to do that from the game, keep insisting on making it impossible to aim, impossible to defeat one’s enemy through any other means beyond sheer, dumb luck? Then guess what, Blastman?

NOBODY. WILL. PLAY IT. ANYMORE.

So yes. Stop f***ing talking about killing convergence. I’m incredibly tired of people throwing it out there as the answer to every single problem in MWO without the faintest care in the world for the astounding and irreparable damage such a thing would do to this game. You can’t, I repeat can’t, I repeat again CAN BLOODY NOT, make an FPS game in which your most fundamental interaction with other players – i.e. aiming at and shooting them – is a sketchy, unreliable diceroll with only a faint nodding acquaintance with input from the player.

So. Does that settle the matter, at least for the next four seconds before someone else suggests we remove aiming from MWO?

[Burktross]

Khobai, on 28 April 2015 - 08:01 PM, said:

war never changes

I gave you 5 stars just for this.
o7