84 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

XX Sulla XX, on 28 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

What would you rather be getting shot by ?

Anything else, as long as it's not LRMs and not PPCs and not Gauss, and certainly not PPFLD ballistics...oh and not Dakka wolves or streaks.

SRMs are OK as long as I have long ranged weapons and the enemy starts really far away on Boreal with a long walk through my base and guns.


Oh, and also please no Arty or Airstrikes.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 28 April 2015 - 06:27 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

XX Sulla XX, on 28 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

What would you rather be getting shot by ?

Flamers and machine guns! I'll allow LB-10X as long as it's only over 300 meters.

[Darwins Dog]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 28 April 2015 - 04:32 PM, said:

I have to agree with my sibkin current meta is nothing but a crutch, and we need a wider range of viable chassis and weapons to help level it off.

I had a similar experience earlier Tincan Nightmare, on grim portico where a 12 man crutch team came in with all TDR STKs and sat spawn camping us, was sad and pathetic really considering my team was literally 100% pugs and most of them where using the trial mechs :\

anyway bottom line is, clan or i.S the current meta is nothing but a crutch for anyone playing CW or normal queues unit or no unit, and I am sick and tired of seeing meta in most aspects of this game. clans needs some AC balance passes and I.S need quirk balance passes. :\

So your claim is that if the other team had been using... I don't know SRM brawlers, that your unorganized team of trial mechs would have won? I'm not saying that STKs and TDRs couldn't use a nerf, but I don't think that's why you lost. They were probably using other crutches like communication and teamwork.

[anonymous161]

Wild Kadabra, on 28 April 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

You are missing the point, it is not about nerfing the viability of IS meta, its not Q.Qing about IS having good mechs that can compete with Clan mechs, its that the laser meta overall, both for IS and Clan is wrong and does not make for a very good game. With a few exceptions in lore most mechs, even assaults dont usually carry more than 2 or 3 large lasers, and those who do must fire them sparringly.

Now i realize MWO is not exactly lore friendly, but regardless, mechs boating lasers do not make for a very interesting game, the point is lasers should be nerfed, maybe have their heat overall increased, and make other weapons more viable mainly ACs, to make for a far more intersting game with some diversity

Ideally we could get a game where you need balanced teams with your backline snipers and LRM support, and front line brawlers to win and not just IMAFIREMAHLAXXOR rushes.

So you want to completely destroy any point of using a nova? Lasers on the clan side have been battered enough they need a buff if anything.

I also blame poor sportsmanship as well. I'm often confronted with a random try hard who gets mad at everyone, and for whatever reason will just pick me to mock and insult the whole time even though I typically do better than they do.

It's a lot about team work and what people are bringing to the match. Trial mechs rarely do any good.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

This is what happens when you ask for PPCs and ACs to get nerfed.

I would a lot rather have the damage over time meta we have now than going back to a front loaded damage meta.

[FupDup]

XX Sulla XX, on 28 April 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

I would a lot rather have the damage over time meta we have now than going back to a front loaded damage meta.

[Water Bear]

All I got to add is this:

I like using lasers. They're fun because they're easy to use.

Right now they are too strong. They're too easy to use for how powerful they currently are. The trade off should be between power and ease of use; Right now, there is no trade off. Lasers are easy to use and powerful. Big derp IMO.

[Callinicus]

Laser show isn't so heavy metal as LRM and AC dakka, but I can't really hate laser boats.

S-SRM30 Stormcrows and S-SRM36 Mad Dogs are far more annoying. No skill, instant kill.

I using a BAP+TAG+SSRM30 Stormcrow for farming on normal games, and non of my IS mechs ever scratched its damage. Brokencrow make 1100 damage from 1200 potential damage of 6 tonns of ammo. I can't do 1100 damage with my Dire Wolf, or any of my 10 elited IS mechs. In facts before tukkayyid, I usually didn't have 1100 damage in an entire CW on IS side, and even now, 1100 dmg isn't a bad battle for me. :-(

[Bishop Steiner]

Molossian Dog, on 28 April 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

This is a well thought out post and will not under any circumstances attract all kinds of shitposting.



How dare they?

They must be dastardly!

Dastardly? Perhaps not.

Bloody boring? Absolutely.

XX Sulla XX, on 28 April 2015 - 06:13 PM, said:

What would you rather be getting shot by ?

I'm a fan of variety.

XX Sulla XX, on 28 April 2015 - 06:42 PM, said:

I would a lot rather have the damage over time meta we have now than going back to a front loaded damage meta.

I'd rather see it back in that nebulous place between absolutes. Because honestly, either extreme is bloody boring.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 28 April 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

Callinicus, on 28 April 2015 - 06:48 PM, said:

Laser show isn't so heavy metal as LRM and AC dakka, but I can't really hate laser boats.

S-SRM30 Stormcrows and S-SRM36 Mad Dogs are far more annoying. No skill, instant kill.

I using a BAP+TAG+SSRM30 Stormcrow for farming on normal games, and non of my IS mechs ever scratched its damage. Brokencrow make 1100 damage from 1200 potential damage of 6 tonns of ammo. I can't do 1100 damage with my Dire Wolf, or any of my 10 elited IS mechs. In facts before tukkayyid, I usually didn't have 1100 damage in an entire CW on IS side, and even now, 1100 dmg isn't a bad battle for me. :-(

except that damage is smeared all over the whole mech instead of hitting that part of it which you want, a single heavy may take like 400+ of such smeared damage before dying...

[Mr Ezzquizo]

bad arcade kitty, on 28 April 2015 - 03:31 PM, said:

cw needs some very serious rework

ballistic needs buff, stalkers need a nerf on laser quirks

imo

yes!!!

[Shadow Magnet]

Why, of course people focus on laser boating for CW as there is no way to pick up new ammo for AC and many locations in the CW maps favour long range engagement. So both sides pick the most efficient mechs for this job. What is the surprise here?

PGI should maybe think about doubling or trippling the ammo per ton for CW for ACs. Or adding ammo packs on the maps.

And maybe PGI should also think about having different mech quirks for each normal and CW mode. I think it is impossible to balance out mechs/quirks for both game modes at the same time.

[jlawsl]

I find it interesting that clan players are having problems with stalkers, that even with quirks(+30% range with module), still have a far less range then an ERLL much less a CERLL. Also, with the new omni pods, Timberwolves are able to ridge hump all day with 3 high mounted torso energy weapons. Add in some targeting computers and you have a much greater range and accuracy advantage(zoom improvement).

So, how much of an advantage do some quirked large lasers actually get? They out range clan medium lasers and light lasers as they should, but are still a little out ranged even by a CERLPL(1170 max range to 1200), which seem to be the go-to large energy weapon for clans. I think the issue we are seeing IS the almost identical range to CERLPLs, but the IS ability to put out more firepower at nearly the same range. Less damage, but less heat, so generally more are mounted as opposed to the 2 CERLPL/throw in some CERMLs-type builds I see running around. So, yeah, you aren't going to win that shoot out.

Start using the much bemoaned CERLLs with targeting computers and stalkers would either have to hide, get out ranged and whittled down, or run out to the clan mechs. And nothing is really more of a point farm then a plodding stalker in the open(slow speed, bad torso twist, bad arm actuation, poor turn rate). The answer is simple-do what IS players have to do, change weapon tactics. How is it an issue when an unimproved CERLL does max damage at 155 more meters(740 to quirked 585) then a stalker's LL? You are doing 22 damage(2 CERLL) compared to 27 damage(3 LL) without ghost heat at a longer range for 20 heat compared to 16.5 heat...

Sooo, mathin' it up, that is pretty whacky for heat generation on a chassis that can mount 6 of them. Hmmm, guess it could be scaled back to a 7.5/7.5 or even a 10/5 ratio for energy and LL heat. Heck, the only assault with better quirks for LLs are AWS-PBs but they only mount two large energy points.

I partially take back them not being an issue. Though clan still has a range/speed/maneuverability advantage, but fall short on sustaining energy fire.

[Khobai]

Quote

PGI should maybe think about doubling or trippling the ammo per ton for CW for ACs. Or adding ammo packs on the maps

.
Or reducing the range of energy weapons. The ridiculous range of these weapons is the whole problem.

CLPL, CERLL, stalker/thunder quirks all need max range nerfs. Gauss probably does too.

[Wild Kadabra]

Like somebody mentioned, a huge part of the problem is that CW is a drawned out game, meaning ammo dependant weapons will always be inferior in it than energy weapon, as you have to bring ample amounts of ammo for it to work. Another huge part of the problem is how CW works, basically camp the doors or rush in, which does not make for a very interesting game.

As a solution i'd suggest adding secondary targets to the map in order to make gameplay more strategic, like a mission play should be, rather than a camping-rushing game. Some secondary objectives could be:

Turret control station: Defenders start with it, if attackers capture it, all turrets power down, if defenders recapture it turrets will reactivate, forcing both teams to split their forces between the main base and this vital installation, and leaving some defenders behind.

Shield station: Similar scenario as before, if attackers capture it, random artillery-airstrikes will hit the defender base at certain intervals of time, if defenders recapture it, the attacks will stop.

Ammo Stations: Both teams start with one, can be destroyed to deny it to the opposite team or a single neutral station that must be captured

[Kiiyor]

Wild Kadabra, on 28 April 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

You are missing the point, it is not about nerfing the viability of IS meta, its not Q.Qing about IS having good mechs that can compete with Clan mechs, its that the laser meta overall, both for IS and Clan is wrong and does not make for a very good game. With a few exceptions in lore most mechs, even assaults dont usually carry more than 2 or 3 large lasers, and those who do must fire them sparringly.

Now i realize MWO is not exactly lore friendly, but regardless, mechs boating lasers do not make for a very interesting game, the point is lasers should be nerfed, maybe have their heat overall increased, and make other weapons more viable mainly ACs, to make for a far more intersting game with some diversity

Ideally we could get a game where you need balanced teams with your backline snipers and LRM support, and front line brawlers to win and not just IMAFIREMAHLAXXOR rushes.

The thing is, you can't talk about laser balance issues without indirectly referring to the mechs that are best at running them... which happen to be the Stalker for the 'Sphere - and if you're talking Clan laser vomit, you're talking MadCat and DoomCrow.

And hey, really, i'm with you. I'd love weapon diversity. I'd love for the meta to expand beyond a handful of viable weapon systems and platforms. However, the top players would always have a meta emerge - there will always be a weapon system valued above all others, and that weapon system will always provide an advantage over anyone not running it.

The main issue is this: that the trouble with broad balance, is that it's really hard to balance.

If you buff AC's to the point where they are preferred (and they would have to be preferred for anyone to run them competitively) then we will see the exact same complaint threads about mechs that can boat AC's, how the meta has shifted to AC boating, and how medium and light mechs are dead because they can't boat them.

If Clan AC's are buffed to the point where they are preferred to lasers, then the gap between the 'Sphere and the MadCat/DoomCrow/DireWolf (because really, the clans are represented exclusively by their top mechs) will simply widen further.

Then, when AC's invariably become normalized and marginalized again, the meta will simply shift to whichever weapon rises to the top as the others fall. Then, once that is normalized, the meta will shift exclusively to the better designed mechs, because they are better at dishing out and receiving punishment, and are easier to pilot.

Heh, I can't remember what I was getting at. Something something perfect balance is impossible? something something.

[Paigan]

Wild Kadabra, on 28 April 2015 - 03:26 PM, said:

It was bad enough, very very bad when clan had laser vomit meta, now IS seems to have laser vomit meta too with only TDRs and Stalkers with large lasers in CW, why not simply remove all other mechs that are not SCRs, TBRs, HBRs, Stalkers and Thunderbolts!!! Also remove all laser heat may as well! Lets turn this into a full light show rave party!

The problem already existed in TT and has mainly todo with BT's partially very moronic rules:

There are energy weapons and ammo weapons.
Ammo weapons have several HUGE disadvantages:
- Their ammo can run out (obviously)
- Their ammo can EXPLODE (ouch!)
- They are HUGE in both slots AND weight (wtf? stupid?)
- They still have a lot of heat, don't deal significantly more damage and have no special feature.

This makes AC incredibly bad to energy weapons in TT.
SRMs have a similar problem.
The only thing that speaks for LRMs is their indirect fire. Apart from that, they are the same crap.

PPCs in TT have the problem that they either have minimum range (=crap) or way too much heat (meh).
Conclusion:
Las0rz, laz0rz everywhere.

Mpuls boats with targetting computer, hilarious in TT.



That pretty much translates to MWO.
Ammo weapons got some nice little extras like screen shake or homing missiles, but statswise, it's still lazorz 4tw.
Also, PPCs are pure crap compared to lasers as they fly WAY too slow to be viable (I laugh every enemy in the face who tries to PPC-snipe-duel with my ERLLs)

The only way to fix that would be a MAJOR overhaul of the moronic BT rules (and kicking out all the TT/lore fanatics, of course. Or in other words: BT is actually a pretty silly game. The only reason I'm here is for the improvements PGI has made)
Until then: Embrace the laser show.

Cheers!

Edited by Paigan, 28 April 2015 - 10:18 PM.

[Palor]

The reason why people take a high number of laser based mechs...running out of ammo is bad.

[MikeBend]

Why would anyone use lasers in the first place?! When we got these... emmm... oh, ok then.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

I'd rather see it back in that nebulous place between absolutes. Because honestly, either extreme is bloody boring.

Problem is trying to make both really viable. Front loaded damage is better since you do not have to expose yourself except for a brief second. But also worse because people do not like getting cored from long range with front loaded damage they do not get to return. Some of the worst times for this game were when PPC/AC front loaded damage was the main meta. I think it needs to be a bit second rate to weapons that are damage over time. Although it could stand some adjustment. Would be nice if there was a reason to take an AC10 or LBX.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 28 April 2015 - 11:35 PM.