1189 replies to this topic

[pursang]

Catamount, on 25 September 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Yep; never-end warfare totally makes any civilization more capable. I mean, just look at the Inner Sphere after the Succession Wars!

Yep, I agree with what you've said. The Imperium is slowly and painfully collapsing upon itself - you can argue that for the past 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy that it's been at a steady rate of decline. If it doesn't implode on itself it will surely be overcome by outside forces. I think that if you where to have a real world comparison with Warhammer 40k you could directly compare the pre-Heresy Imperium of Man to the Roman Empire. Right now it's the Dark Ages Version 2.0 - except you won't see anything good come of it unless something drastic happens.

LakeDaemon, on 25 September 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Star Wars tech wins imo. I draw the line before Warhammer 40k because its a ridiculous genre based on excess steeped in adolescent absurdity.

Star Wars is actually very similar, only to a slightly smaller degree. You don't count a mobile, planet destroying, moon-sized battlestation "excess steeped in adolescent absurdity"? Really?

How about mystical monks that apparently wield swords of light and magic? What about technology that hasn't advanced for tens of thousands of years? What about a galactic government that votes in a dictatorship for no apparent reason? Etc...

Yeah, if you look at it objectively both universes are quite absurd.

Edited by pursang, 26 September 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[Catamount]

pursang, on 26 September 2012 - 04:08 AM, said:

Star Wars is actually very similar, only to a slightly smaller degree. You don't count a mobile, planet destroying, moon-sized battlestation "excess steeped in adolescent absurdity"? Really?

How about mystical monks that apparently wield swords of light and magic? What about technology that hasn't advanced for tens of thousands of years? What about a galactic government that votes in a dictatorship for no apparent reason? Etc...

Yeah, if you look at it objectively both universes are quite absurd.

I don't know if I'd say "absurd" about either, in the sense that all fantastical fiction is absurd. Soft science fiction -which I'll define as science fiction that doesn't restrict to real science for our purposes here- like Trek or Stargate aren't much better in terms of realism, though I have to give some serious kudos to just how far SG-1 went to try sometimes with certain aspects of the show; the minutiae of episodes was often amazingly well researched.

The problem with 40k and Star Wars are simply that they're Campbellian fiction. Their purpose is to offer stories about exaggerated fated demigod heroes who are the only real important people in their story, while everyone else sits somewhere in the range of meaningless homeric spear carriers who's only job is to further the almost god-like protagonists. It's a literary tradition born our of humanity's darker, younger days, designed to uphold the stratified social hierarchies of the time, and so naturally, the higher-station "heroes" get propped up and exaggerated because it's the point of the story (and in the case of the death star, well exaggerated heroes need exaggerated antagonists, I guess ).

Science fiction as a whole is from a different, much more recent literary tradition, and while it includes its fantastical elements, the point is not to elevate demigod heroes.

Quote

Yep, I agree with what you've said. The Imperium is slowly and painfully collapsing upon itself - you can argue that for the past 10,000 years since the Horus Heresy that it's been at a steady rate of decline. If it doesn't implode on itself it will surely be overcome by outside forces. I think that if you where to have a real world comparison with Warhammer 40k you could directly compare the pre-Heresy Imperium of Man to the Roman Empire. Right now it's the Dark Ages Version 2.0 - except you won't see anything good come of it unless something drastic happens.

The problem with the Imperium of Man is that they're victims of their own philosophy in more ways than one.
The Imperium essentially follows a tunnel visioned philosophy, and don't just reject science and discovery as evil, but diversity itself. This creates a problem, because diversity is the most fundamental component of evolution. Evolution works when the need for change to adapt to a new situation spurs a selection, among varied traits, of that which is most suitable for that new situation, and even when it gets emphasized, diversity is retained so that the process can continue down the line (well, that's not why it's retained in biological evolution, it just is, but the process would halt if it wasn't; any non-diverse species would simply die).

If a society or biological population does not possess a diverse set of characteristics, then when it needs to change, and needs to pick a new set of characteristics to emphasize, there's simply nothing to select from. As an oppressively authoritarian religious fundementalist organization, the Imperium simply doesn't tolerate meaningful variation; they have a way of thinking and being, and to them, if someone else isn't doing things the exact same way, they they're doing it wrong (and need to be corrected, violently).


The Imperium isn't just in trouble because they need to change; they're in trouble because as a society they've made themselves incapable of doing so. The moment any part of humanity rose up to save itself, they'd be quashed as "heretics" by the Inquisition. Even doing so much as trying to further knowledge through investigation of foreign technology is considered heresy. The only exception is the Adeptus Mechanicus, and they're only very slightly better. They understand the need to pursue knowledge, but still lack the adaptability in thinking of a truly diverse society.

Edited by Catamount, 26 September 2012 - 04:55 AM.

[Zakatak]

Something that is also worth noting is Imperium tracking and targetting systems. Observe.



Here, a ship is loaded with a cyclonic torpedo, very powerful, very impressive. It wants to turn the surface of the planet to ash with that cyclonic torpedo. At 1:35, it begins locking onto the giant ball below it. At 1:42, it locks onto the giant ball. Assuming the planet is Earth sized, that is 7 seconds to lock onto an object with a diameter of 12500km while about 200km above it. Let's compare the size of Giant Ball to size of USS Enterprise.

Visible Surface Area (Planet): 122 million km^2
Surface Area from Top (Galaxy-class): 0.4 km^2

Divided, and multiplied by 7 seconds, I have determined that it would take 9.7 years for the Warhammer ship to lock onto the Enterprise. What, you think this is a joke post? You think I'm not SERIOUS ON THE INTERNET? The internet is serious business and so am I! Imma mothereffin' choke you!

Edited by Zakatak, 26 September 2012 - 02:00 PM.

[Kuwabra Manayntis]

Can I just say that I love that there are fifty five pages of this...and that I in no way intend to delve into what seems doomed to be a lightsaber / phaser measuring contest? That being said, Catamount clearly has a dark and troubled history in lands that I have heard of yet never traveled. I thoroughly enjoyed how he conveyed his opinion on the subject in page one, and found it a much easier read than I expected.

I very well may have even learned something.

[Valas Hune]

I think the largest and most powerful ship i've heard of is Abel's Ark from Xenosaga. When your ship isn't big enough make it the size of a star system.

[pursang]

Catamount, on 26 September 2012 - 04:43 AM, said:

The Imperium isn't just in trouble because they need to change; they're in trouble because as a society they've made themselves incapable of doing so. The moment any part of humanity rose up to save itself, they'd be quashed as "heretics" by the Inquisition. Even doing so much as trying to further knowledge through investigation of foreign technology is considered heresy.

Yes, this is what I find a little odd about the Imperium and Warhammer 40k in general. You would think that the constant war and conflict that Humanity is subject to would help to fuel the innovation of new ideas (if for no other reason then to develop new weapon systems so as to fight their enemies better) but it's quite the opposite. There is a certain... veneration of the old and known and a certain fear over the new and unknown. It makes me wonder how the Imperium hasn't been destroyed/overthrown/reformed yet by forces that can and will evolve.

[Catamount]

pursang, on 26 September 2012 - 04:33 PM, said:

Yes, this is what I find a little odd about the Imperium and Warhammer 40k in general. You would think that the constant war and conflict that Humanity is subject to would help to fuel the innovation of new ideas (if for no other reason then to develop new weapon systems so as to fight their enemies better) but it's quite the opposite. There is a certain... veneration of the old and known and a certain fear over the new and unknown. It makes me wonder how the Imperium hasn't been destroyed/overthrown/reformed yet by forces that can and will evolve.

Sheer monopoly. Humanity, in the ironically named "Dark Ages" (the only good period in 40k history), were once a very advanced and powerful race that had clearly managed to more or less become the dominant force in the galaxy. They used that time to build up enormous industry, technology, infrastructure and gain utterly vast territory.

Now the Imperium is in a state of decay, with visible rot growing up all around them. Large swaths of their empire have already reverted back to pre-industrial society, most of their technology is beyond their grasp and simply leftover stuff that they try their best not to lose, yet ultimately do as the inevitable toll of battle and the inevitable problem of stuff simply breaking doubtless takes its toll.

For the moment, it's easy to see how the Imperium could continue to win wars with sheer manpower and a passable level of technology, and how they could have survived all this time, but Zakatak's own video above shows they're not exactly forward-thinking people. They're going to be increasingly challenged from the outside, and their rot from the inside is constantly growing, as we see from their constantly decline. Eventually, their entire society is going to revert to a pre-industrial level, if it isn't wiped out first. Still, it takes time for all of the technology of their former, better period to disappear.

[Justin Xang Allard]

Nebfer, on 28 November 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Some of these forces I know little about, though many are also dependent on what time frame one is looking at....

Battletech: Is at best in the single digit kilotons (though some high end calcs can put them in the low triple digit kilotons), it lacks gravity generation and energy shields, it's FTL drive is capable but highly restrictive, sub light speeds is restricted to less than 15 gravity's (acceleration).

Starwars: Most calculations often put it in the megaton to gigaton range for it's capital weapons, they have shields that can take this energy and can generate gravity (not to mention a less restrictive FTL drive, thats vastly faster), sub light speeds are hard to put down but in the dozens of gravitys.

Startrek: Most calcs put them in the megaton range, with energy shields ships capable of withstanding these energys, they also have gravity generation for their crews, and a less restrictive FTL drive (though B-tech is roughly on par speed wise), sub light speeds are similar to Starwars.

Gundam: using the Universal century figures, they have good firepower but low armor, no shields, low fuel endurance / acceleration rates (Earth to moon ~2 days), they also have no FTL drives nor gravity generation.

Macross: I know little about it's tech but I am familiar with it. It depends on the time frame, by Frontier their fighters have better acceleration rates than B-techs, at the lest their some what better than B-tech in most departments.

Zone of Enders: I know nothing about this game
Eve Online: I also know nothing about this game

Starcraft is very hard to get reliable calculations but it's above B-tech but below Starwars/Startrek in the capital ship departments.
I do know that Terran Marines use a rifle with the effective capability's of a 50 cal HMG.

---------------------------------------------
Though Battletech dose have some good infantry kits, it's battlearmor is quite good, their ground weapons are powerful but their "range" is at the lest problematic. Aerospace fighters are also good as well.

------------------------
Though it depends on how this brakes down, whats the forces available, all out war? Is this ground combat or space only?

dont forget macross cannons and the sdf's all have cannons that destroy everything in their path....... on ground they transform to mech or guardian forms like lams which have superior mobility to mechs.
their ships use fold drive technology and make very long range jumps.
the ships generate gravity, and sub light ship speeds that are faster than startreck or star wars.
here is an example of one shot from the main guns of the sdf1. it destroys even capital ships.

Edited by Justin Xang Allard, 26 September 2012 - 06:14 PM.

[Ghostchild]

You have to vote Star Wars it's the Great Grandpa of them all!

[Freric]

Ghostchild, on 26 September 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

You have to vote Star Wars it's the Great Grandpa of them all!

Star Trek came out first...

[Ilithi Dragon]

I will try to do some work on a Flood / Tyranid analysis this weekend, though between soccer games I'm getting ready to go ref this morning, and taking the docks out for the winter at camp tomorrow, my time will be limited. I will try to get at least a cursory overview up tonight.

[Ilithi Dragon]

After my initial studies, my present conclusion is that the Flood have an inherent advantage over the Tyranids, in that the Flood can directly infect and convert enemy combatants, sometimes within seconds (though full conversion into an active Flood Combat Form takes longer). The Tyranids could potentially develop variations that are immune to the Flood, but this would take time even if the Tyranids knew which forms to develop to be immune to the Flood and began producing and deploying them immediately; if they had to develop immune bioforms all on their own (as would most likely be the case), it would take significantly longer. Additionally, the known bioforms that are immune to flood infestation have significant limitations, such as the "Hunters," or Mgalekgolo, which are really colonies of non-sentient worm-like eels. It is the collective gestalt nature of their consciousness and physiology that renders them immune to Flood infestation, and there are limitations what such a life form can do.

Any engagement is going to largely depend upon the nature of the engagement and the size of the forces in question; a small cluster of Flood combat forms would be quickly eradicated by the Tyranid swarm without much threat, and vice-versa. However, if a large force of Flood were able to engage the Tyranids in a prolonged conflict, my preliminary conclusion is that the Flood would ultimately win. If the Flood were to, say, crash a frigate or cruiser into a Tyranid hive ship as a means of boarding it, the Flood's ability to infest and take control over the Tyranids would ultimately bring them victory, both on that hive ship, and in the greater hive fleet as a whole, unless the greater hive fleet promptly obliterated the infected hive ship.

If the Flood is confined to a single planet, regardless of its critical mass, the Tyranids would likely be victorious, for no other reason than the fact that they could park in orbit and bomb the planet with rocks until the Flood was all annihilated. However, if the Flood had ships available to it that were not completely incomparable to the Tyranids (even unarmed freighters that could survive long enough to achieve a kamikaze boarding run), and had sufficient size and biomass to have developed a Gravemind, the Flood would likely succeed.


Now, there is a potential way for the Tyranids to defeat the Flood even then. During the first Human-Flood War, the ancient Human Empire developed a way of defeating the Flood by genetically modifying captured Flood specimens, and infecting 33% of the Human population with them, and throwing them at the Flood hoard. The genetic modifications were spread to other Flood, and they disrupted the Flood's communications systems and basic instinctive drives, causing the Flood to turn on themselves. This ended the first Human-Flood War in victory for the Human Empire, with only a few uninfected Flood surviving to flee the Galaxy, returning 10,000 years later.

If the Tyranids can successfully collect Flood Super Cells and consume and analyze them without being infected by them, they could potentially develop similar modifications. However, I am not certain that the Tyranids could conceive of such modifications, nor am I certain that they could implement them on their existing bioforms, which would present the same problem that they would have after developing bioforms that were immune to the Flood: they have so many bioforms NOT immune to the Flood that already exist, and even at the rate of reproduction the Tyranids can achieve, it would still take time before they could field these new forms against the Flood in significant number.

Furthermore, the Flood that returned to the Milky Way after the first Human-Flood War may well have developed a resistance or immunity to such methods of attack against themselves, rendering such methods of defeating them useless.

[Melcyna]

You realize though that assumption that they can be infected is... well, an assumption to start with?

i mean between a human and a tyranid (or pretty much any other biological form in their lore for that matter) the tyranid is generally considered to be the one with stronger biological makeup which is the whole point of their racial design lore wise since they are meant to be a biological weapon and a biological weapon that is weak against biological attack wouldn't do much good nor would it be successful overall.

the assumption that the flood for example can infect and convert another biological life form would depend entirely on their capability to win in what's effectively a biological invasion (since biological beings always have sort of defense mechanism against biological intrusion), for that matter the defender in such scenario doesn't even need to resist it completely, even if the process can be simply delayed long enough then the defending life form would function sufficiently long to perform the necessary task be it in combat or otherwise to render the point moot.

and as with any biological lifeform, as long as it lives, it can't be immune to biological attack of any sort... all it means is that one has to adapt the angle of approach in attacking it. If they were defeated in the past simply by disrupting their communication and nerve system, then assuming they develop resistance to that attack, the new attack simply has to figure out how their new communication and nerve system has evolved into and make a new attack pattern based on it. No living thing can function without EITHER so we know they have them... all we need to know is what their latest model look like.

if we assume the flood uses kamikaze ships for example to board another ship, then what stops the nids, or pretty much any other combatant for that matter from using the exact same method? Take a ship, small enough that losing them is less of an issue, but big enough to carry a deadly charge... ram said ship right at their kamikaze ship... == ??? BOOOM...

for nids they can just pretty much bio engineer a bio ship for the express purpose of suiciding it and destroying the target ship with it.

for humans we tend to prefer to call them drones or missiles instead (even a ship, if directed to crash itself on the target for the purpose of destroying it is effectively a missile... a VERY BIG missile but a missile none the less).

there's a method if not multiple methods to combat EVERY known type of attack angle, assuming one is patient enough to consider the situation carefully. It just so happen however that in both Imperium and HALO world... they don't posses anyone with the brain capacity to do so...

well... sci fi writers aren't exactly the kind that understand how war is waged in general or the logic that runs war.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

i miss Honorverse (world of Honor Harrington)

[Melcyna]

i just wish there are more well known ships that looked less like a... well... that thing, in honorverse...

i mean i know it is based on their lore design for their technology in story wise as well, but still... it took me some time to stop thinking of them as flying dil...

ughh now the memory comes back.

[Strum Wealh]

JudgeDeathCZ, on 29 September 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

i miss Honorverse (world of Honor Harrington)

Melcyna, on 29 September 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

i just wish there are more well known ships that looked less like a... well... that thing, in honorverse...

i mean i know it is based on their lore design for their technology in story wise as well, but still... it took me some time to stop thinking of them as flying dil...

ughh now the memory comes back.

I always thought Honorverse ships looked like rolling pins, myself.



vs

Edited by Strum Wealh, 29 September 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[JackTheRipper2142]

Revelation Space... they have guns that delete you from existence, Cache weapons that can shatter moons/planets with a single shot, pinhead antimatter bombs and the list just goes on.

Edited by JackTheRipper2142, 29 September 2012 - 07:56 PM.

[Arcane Shadow]

Star Wars OP in space battle operas lots of cannon fodders space ships very hard to destroy and btw they have SSD *Super Star Destroyers and the lof of other planet destroyer weapons about in the universe XD..

[AirPlaneManTrain]

After reading the enitre thread. It seems to me that some people don't understand why Warhammer 40k would always win. A lot of them were saying things like "you can't just say it is unbeatable, thats grade school argueing", and it is. That is why 40k wins, because thats just how it is, the things ARE unbeatable. It doesn't matter that you say it can't be, because it is.

[Catamount]

AirPlaneManTrain, on 29 September 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

After reading the enitre thread. It seems to me that some people don't understand why Warhammer 40k would always win. A lot of them were saying things like "you can't just say it is unbeatable, thats grade school argueing", and it is. That is why 40k wins, because thats just how it is, the things ARE unbeatable. It doesn't matter that you say it can't be, because it is.

In other words: "I declare A to be true, and I'm right, because I am, because I'm right, because I am, therefore A is correct".

There's just one problem with this argument, and that's that the reasoning opens up such an obvious rebuttal, that one wonders how you didn't see it.

By that reasoning I can say "Stargate is unbeatable. It just is, because it is, because I say it is, and it doesn't matter if you say it isn't, because it is, because that's just how it is, because I say so, because it is". Replace Stargate with any franchise name and the argument would apply equally [in]validly. Your own standard of reasoning could be used to equally prop up any franchise.

In reality, of course, this line of argument is meaningless, because anything "unbeatable" by 40k standards is not necessarily so by anyone else's. Such a comparative standard applying in one universe does not guarantee that it applies in another. After all, a WWII tank platoon, would be "unbeatable" to a tribe of Clovis culture humans; that doesn't mean nothing can destroy a single tank platoon.