1189 replies to this topic

[Hythos]

Star Wars has Blue Glowies.
Jedi whom pass in to the Force, are nearly as poweful as they were while "alive".

Because Dark Jedi have been able to destroy planets (and I believe an entire star system) simply by using the Force, they must also be considered as a potential "weapon" aboard a space vessel.
While they posssess such offense, would also be able to defend in-kind, by creating an impenetrable field.

Therefor, this would put Star Wars on-par to a Q of Star Trek - but the Q is unsurpassed as they have an ability to alter reality itself.


However - one thing to consider in ANY universe:
The deeper you go, you're bound to find something bigger, and nastier.

[Catamount]

Zakatak, on 14 September 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

Warhammer 40k and Star Wars are dead magical horses of unspecified size, mass, and blood-pumping capacity. The strength of the universe is entirely dependant upon the writer and the wanking ability of the observer.

Probably not going to include WH40k in any polls I make from now on because they are both pathetic and unstoppable depending upon who you ask.

This. Few, if any figures or statements are ever really made on 40k's capabilities, and on the very rare occasion they are, they're so wildly contradictory (because the writers just don't care about technical details) as to be completely useless. Insofar as the Imperium is concerned, the only thing we do know for certain is that they're a socially and technologically stagnant empire, which has probably progressed less in the last 10,000 years than most science fiction franchises do in any given 50 year period (actually they have, because they're massively regressed); the Retribution class is no less than 5,000 years old FFS! (and that's just going by references to famous ships, so it's very possibly a lot older). The Apocalypse is twice as old as that! And, the ONLY reason they don't built more of them is because the specs have been lost over the millennia, and it's too complex to reverse engineer. In other words, they don't build them because they're so old, they're TOO advanced for the Imperium! This is how bad the Imperium is at developing technology; they can't even maintain their technological level.

We also know that the majority of their worlds are not industrialized, to the point that horse-mounted spearmen are considered a real military force in many places, and whereas many other franchises emphasize education, critical thinking, and high training, these are all but taboo in the Imperium. It's no wonder the standard tactic in every situation is "throw guys at it until it goes away" (that's also plan B, C, D, E and R). It definitely shows the level of thinking taught to Imperium commanders (among whom this is considered a good speech ).

In short, the only thing we know for sure is that all another franchise would have to do to win a fight is find one critical weakness in their technology, and it would be over, because it would probably take them until the 51st millennium to progress far enough technologically to counter it (assuming they don't instead continue regressing until they're down to literal sticks and stones).

Beyond that, we know basically nothing. I could look at some of the universe and stories and conclude the Imperium is barely more advanced than we are today, and then look at something else, and conclude that can blow up galaxies on a whim. Every universe has its inconsistencies, but they don't even seem to try with 40k (which isn't a knock on them; it's still a GREAT game franchise, just not a great franchise for VS threads). So yeah, I don't think there's much point in including them either, because there's really no way to definitively extract the necessary information from the canon to draw any real conclusions (beyond noting their societal...shortcomings). One could argue that most of this doesn't apply outside the Imperium, but they're usually the ones used, and the same fundamental problem (no real consistent, detailed information) would remain.

A11eycat, on 13 September 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

In regards to Voridan Atreide's comment "It(')s Star Wars..... Nothing can beat Star Wars......",
Fluffy, 3-foot-high teddy bears with sticks, small rocks, and horribly constructed bows. Oh, and rebels they had as prisoners > Stormtrooopers, with mechanized armored walkers... : /

In fairness, this the Empire we're talking about. They're notorious for being catastrophically bad engineers.

Edited by Catamount, 14 September 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Catamount, on 14 September 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

In fairness, this the Empire we're talking about. They're notorious for being catastrophically bad engineers.

Indeed. The Old Republic actually had some pretty competent ground-based designs and equipment. Their space-based stuff was rather lacking, but the lore implies that they hadn't fought a proper war in a long time, so it's no surprise that they didn't produce decent combat ship designs (though they seem to have had to deal with plenty of ground-based engagements, probably with pirates and the like).

They're not unlike the Colonial Marines from Aliens, in that regard, who are horrendously incompetent, with horrendously incompetent equipment designs, because they haven't fought anyone for so long.

[Cpt Dan]

okay i just read this topic whilst surfin the net and could help but sign up an comment on the whole 40k thing that was raging...
before i start i completely agree that 40k and star wars are both somewhat inappropriate with regards to a discussion of sci-fi franchise vs each other the reason for which ill get to at the end of my post...

okay here we go.

the assumption seems to be that Imperium is somewhat unadvanced and that it has become so through stagnation and regression. and that its only arguing point is the warp which is presented as a deus ex machina resulting in an argument little better than 'because i said so'...

in response to this idea, i say quite simply... no.

just because 40k relies heavily on the idea of the warp doesnt make it's races backward and incapable of understanding it, the point of the warp as mentioned earlier in this thread is that no matter what, the warp will win. its not just some reverse side of real space that can be tapped into, or travelled through, it is everything in a physical sense and a psycological/emotional sense it is both a reflection of reality and a realm where emotion and thought take form.(not something that can be considered an aspect of science as it is quite literally the stuff dreams[nightmares] are made of [an argument could be made for thoughts and emotion being within the realms of science due to them being the effects of electrical impulses and chemical reactions in the brain, however the exact workings behind why and how these things we experience these things the way we do are still not empirically proven by science, if there is something in star trek or any other sci-fi franchice which has done this then please let me know]) not only this but while its nature is made up of all things past, present and future that have been made, felt or thought up, it is not simply a landscape it is an entity in its own rite feeding off itself and the 'real world' and affecting anything it wishes, effectively it is a deity with unconquerable power, as such the technological advances of a race have no bearing on their understanding of it just as in trek the 'god-like' abilities of the Q are not technological in nature(remember this is fiction, just because 1 frachise says gods dont exist doesnt negate their existance in a frachise v frachise conflict as all facets must be compared, as a result 40k vs trek in this case would boil down to be the Warp vs the Q with any other conflicts between races being meaningless as such a fight would likely cause the end of EVERYTHING.)

Right then, away from the supernatural and back to 'reality',
setting aside the influence of omnipotent-etc beings and forces the rest of the conflict between franchises comes down to technology and nobody will dispute that the federation(i dont mean to keep picking on them but as they were a main protagonist of the argument it seems fitting) are more technologically advanced than the imperium of man from 40k however the degree to which this is claimed is not convincing. the points were made earlier that both have the same types of equipment whether that be laser weapons, energy shields, teleport technology, etc. however in my opinion there were a few issues with this aspect of the argument...

firstly, teleport technology- nobody can argue that both sides have impressive tech in this regard, but the argument turned into the trek side saying 'you might get in but we'll just send you out again' did nobody think that a space marine teleporting anywhere would have systems in place to prevent that kind of thing especially considering the fact that they regularly fight enemies with similar tech, heck it stands to reason that the energy field covering a terminators armour(the field that provides a ward save in the game) would give it some form of protection from unfriendly teleportation. again im not saying it wouldnt happen im just pointion out that there are things to consider before making such assertion the primary thing to consider when it comes to the issue of a teleport attack is tactics which it must be said the marines do have the advantage in after 10,000 years of war (if we are talking Imperial Guard then anybody with a potato peeler and a slingshot has a chance to out fox them but the marines have a far more honed and advanced way of war than them) so in my opinion teleportation is a tie, fed probably more advanced thus possibility to prevent or undo a boarding action but marines better boarding tactics and aggression to make the attack to begin with.
also on a related note the marines have a myriad of ways to board enemy vessels without needing to teleport if that becomes an issue.

next issue, weapon power, armour, energy shields, etc.- one of the main points for trek winning was that IoM weapons were woefully underpowered in comparison to fed weaponry with a phaser having the same output as a tank lascannon etc. the assumption was made that a lascannon is an advanced weapon thus high power, when infact they are only as advanced as other energy based IoM weapons such as the melta gun, a weapon which can render a tank nothing more than a pile of smouldering metal slag with a single shot or the plasmacannon which can atomise a tank with a single shot or boil alive a man in full terminator armour depending on the charge of the blast, these are the IoM's heavy hitting weapons, the lascannon is a penetration weapon made for precision attacks. this is in regard to infantry combat where i have no doubt a fed phaser could bring down marines in the same way as a lascannon can do however the killing potential of marine weapons likewise should not be disputed if a single ounce of logic is applied, even if the fed troop were wearinf armour that can stop a phaser then that doesnt stop a bolter round from killing them and if it does, remember bolters fire explosive rounds in the region of 40mm caliber which will send anybody sprawling on the floor giving a tactical advantage plus the other weapons mentioned before being extraordinarily devastating not to mention the proliferent use of flamers in the IoM, ideal for clearing rooms of defenders as well as ships corridors. as such the contest reached a stalemate from a tech point of view as both forces show the same killing potential in troop based conflict leaving the resolution down to tactics and numbers giving IoM an advantage again. As for ship to ship combat it has already been established that both sides have comparable destructive capabilities, aside from the lascannon power curve with which i have two issues, firstly the heavy weaponry of IoM ships is often lance batteries and thermo nuclear torpedoes therefore not a part of the lasgun weapon family thus the upscaling maths applied to the leman russ tank lascannon which was technically perfect is inaccurate from a practical angle and secondly that the upscaling was done to a standard curve when the fact of IoM Las technology is that as the weapon size increases the power output increases at a far greater rate thus a guardsmans lasrifle barely singes a marines battle plate yet a lascannon a weapon roughly 5-7 times its size etc is capable at full power of cutting the same marine in half thus a ship scale lascannon would be far more powerful than the math shows(exactly how much i dont know but as a single IoM ship can destroy a planet in that same time as a number of fed ships it stands to reason that they should be reasonably similar when comparing the ships main armament of lance guns to federation weapons{especially considering the size of an imperial ship and thus the fact that it likely has a similar amount of weapons as a few federation ships combined}) as for said weapons being capable of penetrating the oppositions shields it seems fair to assume that the shield systems of the fed are more advanced but by the same token the IoM shields are made to handle more than just attacks from other ships, thus this boils down to weapons as both shields will likely be of similar integrity thus a single shot will not be winning the battle for either side. so for this section as before i thing technologically the fed have an advantage but not enough to offset the numbers and tactical approaches that the marines would bring the the fray.

anyway ive prattled on long enough, overall on the poll i come down on the side of 40k, with star trek second, star wars third, and stargate fourth(purely as its my favourite and the asgard kick *** )

oh yeah, i almost forgot my reason for thinking 40k and star wars dont really work in this franchise v franchise debate. mainly because, as pointed out by someone previously the are too big, they cover too much of space and too many species to be fairly compared with other franchises in this manner as they would always win because technology cant beat the sheer scale of them whether you believe them inadequately written or not.

Peace out!

[Strum Wealh]

Cpt Dan, on 19 September 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

okay i just read this topic whilst surfin the net and could help but sign up an comment on the whole 40k thing that was raging...
before i start i completely agree that 40k and star wars are both somewhat inappropriate with regards to a discussion of sci-fi franchise vs each other the reason for which ill get to at the end of my post...

okay here we go.

the assumption seems to be that Imperium is somewhat unadvanced and that it has become so through stagnation and regression. and that its only arguing point is the warp which is presented as a deus ex machina resulting in an argument little better than 'because i said so'...

in response to this idea, i say quite simply... no.

[snipped for brevity]

Peace out!

A lot of what is addressed in your post is actually addressed by the guidelines of the thread - we're specifically avoiding bringing outright supernaturals and pseudo-gods (galaxy eaters, time-actives, etc) into the mix.

Given that, most of 40K's involvement is generally directed specifically to the Imperium of Man, which does actually have a fair bit of material available to come to reasonable (within the bounds of what is known about 40k canon, anyway) conclusions about the Imperium's capabilities.

I, myself, wrote a detailed analysis of the Imperium's capabilities...

[MADEVIL]

Nothing against 40k, but I'm surprised how many votes it has.

[DemiurgLoDs]

Legion of astartes - destroy all eretics Universe!

EXTERMINATUS!

Edited by DemiurgLoDs, 19 September 2012 - 11:41 PM.

[mechasword]

Cpt Dan, on 19 September 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

okay i just read this topic whilst surfin the net and could help but sign up an comment on the whole 40k thing that was raging...
before i start i completely agree that 40k and star wars are both somewhat inappropriate with regards to a discussion of sci-fi franchise vs each other the reason for which ill get to at the end of my post...

okay here we go.

the assumption seems to be that Imperium is somewhat unadvanced and that it has become so through stagnation and regression. and that its only arguing point is the warp which is presented as a deus ex machina resulting in an argument little better than 'because i said so'...

in response to this idea, i say quite simply... no.

just because 40k relies heavily on the idea of the warp doesnt make it's races backward and incapable of understanding it, the point of the warp as mentioned earlier in this thread is that no matter what, the warp will win. its not just some reverse side of real space that can be tapped into, or travelled through, it is everything in a physical sense and a psycological/emotional sense it is both a reflection of reality and a realm where emotion and thought take form.(not something that can be considered an aspect of science as it is quite literally the stuff dreams[nightmares] are made of [an argument could be made for thoughts and emotion being within the realms of science due to them being the effects of electrical impulses and chemical reactions in the brain, however the exact workings behind why and how these things we experience these things the way we do are still not empirically proven by science, if there is something in star trek or any other sci-fi franchice which has done this then please let me know]) not only this but while its nature is made up of all things past, present and future that have been made, felt or thought up, it is not simply a landscape it is an entity in its own rite feeding off itself and the 'real world' and affecting anything it wishes, effectively it is a deity with unconquerable power, as such the technological advances of a race have no bearing on their understanding of it just as in trek the 'god-like' abilities of the Q are not technological in nature(remember this is fiction, just because 1 frachise says gods dont exist doesnt negate their existance in a frachise v frachise conflict as all facets must be compared, as a result 40k vs trek in this case would boil down to be the Warp vs the Q with any other conflicts between races being meaningless as such a fight would likely cause the end of EVERYTHING.)

Right then, away from the supernatural and back to 'reality',
setting aside the influence of omnipotent-etc beings and forces the rest of the conflict between franchises comes down to technology and nobody will dispute that the federation(i dont mean to keep picking on them but as they were a main protagonist of the argument it seems fitting) are more technologically advanced than the imperium of man from 40k however the degree to which this is claimed is not convincing. the points were made earlier that both have the same types of equipment whether that be laser weapons, energy shields, teleport technology, etc. however in my opinion there were a few issues with this aspect of the argument...

firstly, teleport technology- nobody can argue that both sides have impressive tech in this regard, but the argument turned into the trek side saying 'you might get in but we'll just send you out again' did nobody think that a space marine teleporting anywhere would have systems in place to prevent that kind of thing especially considering the fact that they regularly fight enemies with similar tech, heck it stands to reason that the energy field covering a terminators armour(the field that provides a ward save in the game) would give it some form of protection from unfriendly teleportation. again im not saying it wouldnt happen im just pointion out that there are things to consider before making such assertion the primary thing to consider when it comes to the issue of a teleport attack is tactics which it must be said the marines do have the advantage in after 10,000 years of war (if we are talking Imperial Guard then anybody with a potato peeler and a slingshot has a chance to out fox them but the marines have a far more honed and advanced way of war than them) so in my opinion teleportation is a tie, fed probably more advanced thus possibility to prevent or undo a boarding action but marines better boarding tactics and aggression to make the attack to begin with.
also on a related note the marines have a myriad of ways to board enemy vessels without needing to teleport if that becomes an issue.

next issue, weapon power, armour, energy shields, etc.- one of the main points for trek winning was that IoM weapons were woefully underpowered in comparison to fed weaponry with a phaser having the same output as a tank lascannon etc. the assumption was made that a lascannon is an advanced weapon thus high power, when infact they are only as advanced as other energy based IoM weapons such as the melta gun, a weapon which can render a tank nothing more than a pile of smouldering metal slag with a single shot or the plasmacannon which can atomise a tank with a single shot or boil alive a man in full terminator armour depending on the charge of the blast, these are the IoM's heavy hitting weapons, the lascannon is a penetration weapon made for precision attacks. this is in regard to infantry combat where i have no doubt a fed phaser could bring down marines in the same way as a lascannon can do however the killing potential of marine weapons likewise should not be disputed if a single ounce of logic is applied, even if the fed troop were wearinf armour that can stop a phaser then that doesnt stop a bolter round from killing them and if it does, remember bolters fire explosive rounds in the region of 40mm caliber which will send anybody sprawling on the floor giving a tactical advantage plus the other weapons mentioned before being extraordinarily devastating not to mention the proliferent use of flamers in the IoM, ideal for clearing rooms of defenders as well as ships corridors. as such the contest reached a stalemate from a tech point of view as both forces show the same killing potential in troop based conflict leaving the resolution down to tactics and numbers giving IoM an advantage again. As for ship to ship combat it has already been established that both sides have comparable destructive capabilities, aside from the lascannon power curve with which i have two issues, firstly the heavy weaponry of IoM ships is often lance batteries and thermo nuclear torpedoes therefore not a part of the lasgun weapon family thus the upscaling maths applied to the leman russ tank lascannon which was technically perfect is inaccurate from a practical angle and secondly that the upscaling was done to a standard curve when the fact of IoM Las technology is that as the weapon size increases the power output increases at a far greater rate thus a guardsmans lasrifle barely singes a marines battle plate yet a lascannon a weapon roughly 5-7 times its size etc is capable at full power of cutting the same marine in half thus a ship scale lascannon would be far more powerful than the math shows(exactly how much i dont know but as a single IoM ship can destroy a planet in that same time as a number of fed ships it stands to reason that they should be reasonably similar when comparing the ships main armament of lance guns to federation weapons{especially considering the size of an imperial ship and thus the fact that it likely has a similar amount of weapons as a few federation ships combined}) as for said weapons being capable of penetrating the oppositions shields it seems fair to assume that the shield systems of the fed are more advanced but by the same token the IoM shields are made to handle more than just attacks from other ships, thus this boils down to weapons as both shields will likely be of similar integrity thus a single shot will not be winning the battle for either side. so for this section as before i thing technologically the fed have an advantage but not enough to offset the numbers and tactical approaches that the marines would bring the the fray.

anyway ive prattled on long enough, overall on the poll i come down on the side of 40k, with star trek second, star wars third, and stargate fourth(purely as its my favourite and the asgard kick *** )

oh yeah, i almost forgot my reason for thinking 40k and star wars dont really work in this franchise v franchise debate. mainly because, as pointed out by someone previously the are too big, they cover too much of space and too many species to be fairly compared with other franchises in this manner as they would always win because technology cant beat the sheer scale of them whether you believe them inadequately written or not.

Peace out!

[bikerbass77]

It is quite simple why Star Wars wins.

Firstly, they have shields in multiple ship classes. This leads to better survivability. Secondly, they have speedy fighters as well as powerful starships and battlestations. This way they have an advantage over Star Trek who are extremely ponderous in comparison. Thirdly, force powers. I mean, they have farm-boys who can hit an exhaust port with his eyes closed while under-fire and flying a craft he has never flown before with the targeting computer off.

Stargate has much of these but are too few in number compared to the imperial fleet. The closest competition would be Eve Online but I am not overly familiar with the game-play of that so I am backing the one I know best.

Edited by Hans Davion, 20 September 2012 - 03:36 AM.

[mechasword]

Christian Davion, on 29 November 2011 - 12:52 AM, said:

You need to get a pic of the Charger Mech

[img][url="http://crystal-cdn2.crystalcommerce.com/photos/513380/large/20-902.jpg"]http://crystal-cdn2.crystalcommerce.com/photos/513380/large/20-902.jpg[/url][/img]

[CGB Kilbourne]

You guys are all crazy.

The ships, weaponry and shields in Warhammer 40k in the Imperial fleet could take every other one of these fleets all together.

The ultimate weapon they have? Boarding torpedoes full of Space Marines. Shoot lasers all you want, but if you get a bunch of Space Marines on board your ship, your ship is lost, because no human crew is going to stop them.

[Zakatak]

Hans Davion, on 20 September 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

It is quite simple why Star Wars wins.

Firstly, they have shields in multiple ship classes. This leads to better survivability. Secondly, they have speedy fighters as well as powerful starships and battlestations. This way they have an advantage over Star Trek who are extremely ponderous in comparison. Thirdly, force powers. I mean, they have farm-boys who can hit an exhaust port with his eyes closed while under-fire and flying a craft he has never flown before with the targeting computer off.

Stargate has much of these but are too few in number compared to the imperial fleet. The closest competition would be Eve Online but I am not overly familiar with the game-play of that so I am backing the one I know best.

On the first point, half of these entries have shields. Warhammer, Stargate, Star Trek, Mass Effect, etc. Also, having shields really doesn't mean much unless you know their power. Mass Effect ships have shields, Babylon 5 ships don't, but I guarantee that the latter could smash the former regardless since the armor plating on Earthforce ships are like 8 meters thick (and ME shields block maybe 25 kilotons).

On the second point, that is sort of par-for-course with every science fiction fleet. And their fighters have stated and canonical ranges in single-digit kilometers. It is essentially WW2 combat with space. I think even Stargate beats them here, and they use modified Slammers for god sakes.

On the third point, how many Jedi are there in comparison to the rest of the galaxy? What puts them over Biotics from Mass Effect, which can create black holes and spacial warps with their minds? I know guess like Starkiller can bring down a million ton ship into the ground, most Jedi's aren't that strong.

Star Wars power estimates are so incredibly far apart that trying to find any sort of consistency is borderline impossible, however.

Edited by Zakatak, 20 September 2012 - 04:40 PM.

[pursang]

Zakatak, on 20 September 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

On the third point, how many Jedi are there in comparison to the rest of the galaxy? What puts them over Biotics from Mass Effect, which can create black holes and spacial warps with their minds? I know guess like Starkiller can bring down a million ton ship into the ground, most Jedi's aren't that strong.

Star Wars power estimates are so incredibly far apart that trying to find any sort of consistency is borderline impossible, however.

This also begs the question: How good are Jedi at battle? The movies show them to be glorious one-man armies, but at the end, most of the Jedi where wiped out by an army of clones led by one of their former members. Kind of makes you wonder how a single Jedi would perform against a single Astartes or the like. It also makes me wonder how susceptible they would be to Chaos' influence.

/Ramble

[A11eycat]

OMG, I had never even considered what the warp (or Choas) would do to Jedi/Sith and other "force sensitive" individuals! Nice thought!

[Bravo21]

As much as the federations tech will help, 40k will carry the day through two factors: Numbers, and CREEEEEEEED! the only man who can hide a titan behind a chest high wall.

[Hodo]

Not voting the ultimate winner isnt on there.

Babylon 5.

[Thanatos676]

I am actually surprised that Warhammer 40k is only barely winning this. If you factor in the whole 40k universe then it would win without a doubt. Even a single chapter of Space Marines would mow down anything they came into contact with except other Space Marines. Add in the fact that any world deemed "Unconquerable" would be Virus bombed or hit with a cyclonic torpedo and thus reduced to ash and cinders.... it makes it a moot contest.

[Trooper60709]

Battle tech can send in space mechs that can't get hit by giant cannons.

[Vox Scorpus]

What about Babylon 5? The vorlon had a planet killer

[Strum Wealh]

Thanatos676, on 23 September 2012 - 03:37 PM, said:

I am actually surprised that Warhammer 40k is only barely winning this. If you factor in the whole 40k universe then it would win without a doubt. Even a single chapter of Space Marines would mow down anything they came into contact with except other Space Marines. Add in the fact that any world deemed "Unconquerable" would be Virus bombed or hit with a cyclonic torpedo and thus reduced to ash and cinders.... it makes it a moot contest.

Actually, I've already outlined how it could/would be almost trivially-easy for the All Systems Commonwealth High Guard to destroy the Imperium of Man.
I'd reckon that most of the other 40k civilizations would fall with more-or-less equal ease.

As the Commonwealth isn't a poll option, Macross (specifically, the Protoculture Stellar Republic, the Protodevlin and their Supervision Army, and the Vajra) stand a good chance by virtue of being able to employ not-dissimilar tactics in conventional navy-to-navy combat.

Honorable mention goes to the Halo universe.
Given their ability to construct such things as the Halo Array and the Shield Worlds, the Forerunners seem like they could best any of 40k's civilizations. And most of the Halo Array (including the Greater Ark and six of the seven individual Halos) are intact as of the end of Halo 3.
Also, given the measures that had to be employed (and, even then, said measures' ultimate ineffectiveness), the Flood would very probably be able to take down any 40k civilization.