1189 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Whoops forgot to add, and this is the most important figure of all, how accurate is the warp? Can they regularly warp within a planetary orbit, or is the exit point random?

This is an important question, but Miles doesn't seem to be able to answer any questions about how reliable, fast, accurate FTL through the warp is.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:47 PM, said:

Travelling the warp is like a forecast.

This is how it works.

Captain Steelwraith says: "We have orders from the High Lords of terra, I need to travel to Segmentum Obscurus. Astropath! How long will the sojourn take?"

Astropath: I've heard the roar of the Warp, its currents are extremely turbulent. Warp travel now may take four months, though the turbulence of the Warp bears a risk of being thrown off course."

You see? It's like a weather forecast. The captain asks the Astropath how safe, and how long it takes to travel from A to B. There isn't an exact amount of time, it varies based on how "cooperative" the warp is at the moment.

Okay, so if I want to travel to planet X, how close will I get? If it isn't precise, then give me a rough statistical distribution.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 02:48 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:39 PM, said:

I did answer your question. I said that you CAN travel through the warp without an astropath but it isn't FEASIBLE because you will be LOST inside the warp without an astropath to NAVIGATE the warp currents. If you asked a ship captain to make a warp jump without an astropath, he would think you were suicidal.

But that isn't how it is right now. Right now you need an astropath to help you navigate the Warp currents, OR you do what the Tau do which use an alternate FTL method that is safer but slower than Warp travel.

Again, you failed to answer my question, and missed the point of the question.

I asked not if it is possible to travel at Warp without the Astronomican in 40,000, I asked how Mankind was able to develop Warp-drive and the Gellar Field circa 15,000. I asked how Mankind was able to use Warp-drive reliably for 10,000 years before the warp storms caused by the fall of the Eldar civilization and the birth of Slaanesh began disrupting the Warp and making Warp increasingly unreliable circa 25,000.


The POINT of my question is to refute your claim that the Federation or any Trek power would not be able to detect or manipulate or do anything with the Warp because that can only be done with psykers, which the Federation does not have.

According to 40K canon, this is false, because Mankind developed Warp-drive and the Gellar Field, both of which require knowledge of and detection of the Warp, without the aid of psykers. According to 40K canon, Warp-drive was reliable for ten thousand years, until the fall of the Eldar civilization sparked the birth of Slaanesh which both sparked warp storms across the Immaterium, disrupting Warp travel and making Warp-drive increasingly unreliable.


My ultimate point is that the Warp CAN be detected and analyzed and understood by scientific, technological means. The Federation could easily develop such technology, if they do not already have it (as previously noted, the Immaterium is remarkably similar in many ways to what Trek calls subspace, and even if there isn't some overlap of the two, their effects and the technology used to study and manipulate them will probably be pretty damn similar).

[Catamount]

Also, if it's like a forecast, then what are the statistics for AVERAGE speed, and reliability?


Surely, if you have such a mastery of canon, you have enough examples to build a basic statistical distribution for us.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

Can you answer that question, or can't you?

Because understanding is a subjective term. You would call being able to enter the warp without the present method today as "understanding." They didn't even know what the warp was, they didn't have a word for it, they didn't know about Chaos Gods or anything of that nature. They just knew that if you had a geller field and a warp reactor, some crazy crap happens when you discharge enough warp energy in a single location and that BAM you appear somewhere else.

That was the extent of their "understanding."

Today it is a more complicated issue.

[Miles Tails Prower]

I'm getting bombarded by too many question. If you'd be so kind, ask your questions again but put them in 1 paragraph in size straight to the point and I will answer them as best as I can.

[steelwraith]

Aha, I knew you could define it if you really tried.

But we still need an average time, and if realspace distance affects that time (ie. does it take longer to cross the galaxy than to visit a neighboring star).

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

Also, if it's like a forecast, then what are the statistics for AVERAGE speed, and reliability?


Surely, if you have such a mastery of canon, you have enough examples to build a basic statistical distribution for us.

See there you go again with the numbers. There is no average speed, the warp churns randomly. All the astropath can do, is give a projection of the estimated time to travel from A to B based on the strength and calmness of the warp and its warp currents.

[steelwraith]

By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that Star Wars has taken the lead?

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:51 PM, said:

Because understanding is a subjective term. You would call being able to enter the warp without the present method today as "understanding." They didn't even know what the warp was, they didn't have a word for it, they didn't know about Chaos Gods or anything of that nature. They just knew that if you had a geller field and a warp reactor, some crazy crap happens when you discharge enough warp energy in a single location and that BAM you appear somewhere else.

That was the extent of their "understanding."

Today it is a more complicated issue.

So they DID manipulate the warp without the psykers, using nothing but science and technology.


It doesn't matter how good they got at it, you just refuted your own claim. Technology CAN manipulate the warp. The IoM only did it very haphazardly, yes, but you've provided no evidence that a more sophisticated science couldn't do more sophisticated manipulation, nor better quantify what was going on.


Thank you for saying what we've all suspected all along: By all indications, a sufficiently advanced science could very well understand and manipulate the warp quite well.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

See there you go again with the numbers. There is no average speed, the warp churns randomly. All the astropath can do, is give a projection of the estimated time to travel from A to B based on the strength and calmness of the warp and its warp currents.

So give me a statistical distribution based on the FTL travels that HAVE been done.


We'll see if it follows any kind of statistical distribution.




From the sounds of it, FTL is so haphazard, that it would be useless for the Imperium. They couldn't assault UFP worlds, because they'd pop so far out, that they'd be destroyed by multi-AU weaponry before even being able to do anything.



But let's see how much that is or isn't true.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

Also, Miles, you're still not answering my questions about the factors we can clearly quantify.


You're bringing up weapons, but not answering basic questions about them, nor about observed combat ranges.

Well geez man hold your horses. I'm being questioned by multiple people and am losing track of who asked what. There's only 1 MilesTailsPrower and there are 3 people who want a whole lot of information, some of it which cannot even be given.

[steelwraith]

Actually there is an average speed, as long as two or more trips have been made (and timed), you will have an average. In the case of wildly random numbers you may want to take a medium instead, but in any case they're based on completed trips so they have to exist. Whether they've been recorded in any rulebook remains to be seen.

[Ilithi Dragon]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

By the way, does anyone else find it ironic that Star Wars has taken the lead?

Ahahahaha, yes, yes, we do.


Miles, Catamount is getting bullet-points for you.


Oh, steelwraith, I have some theories on the Borg and how they went from being an awesome antagonist concept and general sci-fi concept to the culmination of all the stereotypical archvillain flaws that you might be interested in, but that's outside the realm of this thread. If you've got Skype, hit me up sometime (I use this screenname for everything), or shoot me a PM if not.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

I'm getting bombarded by too many question. If you'd be so kind, ask your questions again but put them in 1 paragraph in size straight to the point and I will answer them as best as I can.

Okay, Here, let me bullet it for you:


1: What is the maximum observed engagement range of 40k vessels (derive it as best as you can, based on whatever assumptions you like, so long as you state those assumptions so we can critique your methodology).


2: What is the relationship between size and power for 40K weaponry? What weapon can do what? Quantify as exactly as you can; we know there's always uncertainties (as in, if you blow up a city, you have some unknowns on how much energy it took), but do what you can to offer the best constraints you can.


3: What is an average of the speed, accuracy, and reliability of PAST FTL uses to date (that you CAN provide, no matter how unpredictable the FTL is); If you don't know how to do a statistical distribution, just give us the raw data, and we'll do it for you




You've already confirmed that science and technology can manipulate the warp, because primitive science was able to do it haphazardly, so I don't need to ask more questions about that.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 03:00 PM.

[Catamount]

Also, Miles, on point 3, the more data points you can give us, the better.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:54 PM, said:

So they DID manipulate the warp without the psykers, using nothing but science and technology.

Okay time to go to the basics.

In order to get into the Warp. The minimum requirements is some device that can tear open the material reality. If you can do that, you can get yourself into the warp.

Science is used to create a devise that can discharge enough warp energy to cut through the material universe. This devise is a "Warp Drive."

Now the problem comes in.

The Warp is "alive" in some senses. When something enters the warp, the warp feels it and is attracted to it. The Geller Field was invented to prevent lower level warp threats from entering the ship.

Now the next problem comes in.

Because the warp is very chaotic by nature, it is impossible to travel by normal means. You need a map, an "astronomicon" to get through the warp in 1 piece. Not every species use astropaths to get through the Warp. For example. The Eldar use the Webway, which is a pathway of previously determined safe routes through the way. They don't need an astropath because they already mapped out safe courses. But they were able to do this in the first place because the Eldar are a psychically gifted species and are naturally connected to the Warp(much to the chagrin).

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:04 PM.

[Jeremiah Rose2]

Im for Honor Harrington why this wasent told i didnt know. You have space ships and all the other stuff and their is no real space battle without hunderets x-ray lasers powered with megaton sice Nuklearwarheads.

[Miles Tails Prower]

If the the travel between A and B is safe, then Warp travel is extremely accurate. But you have to understand that distance doesn't always factor into the equation like a person might think.

Let us say there are 2 ships Alpha and Baker, and their destination is Charlie. Let us also say that Alpha is closer to Charlie than Baker is in terms of raw units of distance.

The time for Alpha and Baker to reach Charlie will vary using Warp Travel. Baker could reach Charlie before Alpha even though Baker is mathmatically farther, because Baker might have more conductive Warp Currents carrying their ship to Charlie than Alpha does.

That is why it is difficult to give precise time estimates. Because the time to travel is based on the cooperativeness of the Warp currents.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:07 PM.

[Catamount]

Miles, the first part of your sentence was the only part of pertinence.


If science can device a warp to discharge warp energy, and even very roughly and haphazardly manipulate the force involved, then clearly the fundamental forces involved have a strong possibility of being manipulated.


So there is no reason to believe that a sufficiently advanced science could not:

-track a ship's location in a warp

-alter space to prevent a ship from exiting the warp into normal space

-build simple, scientific shields that deflect warp energy (which would be related to the means to do the above)



There is no reason to believe these things are beyond science, whatsoever. Had the IoM better studied these possibilities, they may have found that keeping the immaterium from entering and damaging parts of normal space could have been completely and 100% achieved, using science to replicate what human psychics do, to expand beyond what they can do (as technology does), and perhaps even to work in coordination with them.


Science could have been a very powerful tool for the Imperium. That fact may not be lost on their enemies.