1189 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

The refutation is nice, Ilithi, but Miles blew his own argument away.


He's claiming absolute knowledge of something he's simultaneously claiming is absolutely unknowable. If it's unknownable, and any attempt to quantify it within 40K has failed, then he actually knows nothing about it (that being the nature of something you claim is unknownable), and therefore, he has no idea what another, more advanced race of being might be able to have knowledge of it.


So he refutes his own argument, but asserts that we accept it anyways, by asserting himself as an absolute authority, thereby committing a bare assertion fallacy.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:20 PM, said:

Okay now we're getting somewhere. This is what I wanted, to move past the whole explaination of the warp.

So lets get down directly to weaponry.

Imperium Las weaponry travels at the speed of light, and naval las weaponry annhilates cities and planets effortlessly . On top of this Imperium vessles are equipped with void shields that are capable of resisting said planetary destroying weaponry. And that is just standard issue equipment.

The Imperium have "planet cracking" las weaponry that burrows through the planet's surface and destablize its core, cutting it effectively into chunks.

The scenario of Fed being vastly superior to the IoM isn't realistic. Federation phasers are no more or less powerful than the naval las cannons the Imperium obliterates cities, continents and planets with. IoM ships are also far more massive than Fed ships, they're more numerous and carry larger arsenals of extremely diverse and powerful weaponry.

Please specify which weapons, specifically, have this power (what are they mounted on? How big are they), and please give a quantifiable energy figure, derived however you like (even if it's just taking a scene, making some assumptions and doing the math yourself), so that we can do a comparison.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 02:25 PM.

[Catamount]

Also, Miles, you haven't once stated how the Federation would be affected by any IoM weapon, regardless of the power, given their capability to engage at vastly superior ranges.

[Miles Tails Prower]

ilithi dragon, on 24 December 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

I have a huge, huge huge question regarding this, Miles. How did Mankind utilize warp drive during the Dark Age of Technology, long before the Emperor created the Astronomican? The beginning of the Dark Age of Technology was marked by the development of the Warp-Drive and the Gellar Field in the 15th Millennium. Mankind expanded throughout the galaxy for fifteen thousand years before the Age of Strife brought about the end of the Dark Age of Technology, and it wasn't until AFTER the fall and AFTER the Emperor began to reunify mankind on Earth that the Astronomican was constructed.

If the Warp can only be detected and manipulated by psykers, or with the help of psykers, how did Mankind develop warp-drive technology thousands of years before the first verification of the existence of psykers?

If Mankind could develop technology to detect and manipulate the Immaterium without the aid of psykers, then the Federation or any other notable Trek power could do so as well, with ease.

The Geller Field is the psychic shielding that protects a ship from the warp, it is the layer underneath the ship's void shielding. When the Geller Field breaks, the ship itself is vulnerable to daemonic possession.

Now there is a reason why it is called the "Dark Age of Technology" and why that era no longer exists. You don't need an Astropath to make a warp jump. You'll end up somewhere on the opposite side of the universe, but you can do it. That's why part of the objective of the Great Crusade was to reunite humanity that was lost to the stars during the Age of Strife and the Dark Age of Technology. Many human civilizations were scattered about the universe because of the Dark Age of Humanity.

In addition, the power of the psykers always existed, and psykers too have always existed. During the Dark Age of Technology though, that sort of paranormal power wasn't recognized and acknowledged by scientific principal. In fact it stayed that way until the Horus Heresy occurs in the year 30,000.

The issue of the Fed is that the Warp would be a brand new issue to them, they would only know that this enemy they face use some kind of FTL travel method that they have never seen. They would need some point to start their research, and even if they did they don't have the psykers or the experience in warp travel to use this extremely dangerous medium to any real effect.

If the Fed used the warp, knowing they don't have the astropaths or the astronomicon to guide them. Then they'd all end up like Voyager out in no-where's-ville.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 02:28 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

Also, Miles, you haven't once stated how the Federation would be affected by any IoM weapon, regardless of the power, given their capability to engage at vastly superior ranges.

Warhammer isn't a game of naval combat so precise specs of ship-to-ship warfare aren't as defined as Star Trek where ship-to-ship warfare is the main theme of the franchise.

Because of that, I don't have any proof that the Fed does in fact out range or out power the IoM.

But. Let me see what I can dig up. I won't let my lack of knowledge in that area prevent me from at least trying.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[steelwraith]

Ugh, you keep insisting chaos is unexplainable yet half explain it at the same time. Allow me to finish:

Chaos is also itself the turbulent psychic energy that comprises the Immaterium. Chaos is almost synonymous with the Warp -- the two concepts are inseparable, for Chaos is the limitless ocean of spiritual, psychic and emotional energy that defines the Immaterium and underlies the 4-dimensional material universe of space-time. It is a great and raw force of change and power, and is both physically and spiritually corrupting, though it is not in itself necessarily "evil."

The most evolutionarily-advanced mortals, psykers, can utilize this energy, thus making them capable of abilities which transcend the standard physical laws of the material universe as Mankind understands them. However, the malevolent power of Chaos can gradually corrupt a psyker, tainting his mind and body and turning him into the slave of the Ruinous Powers.

This is taken from the Wiki. It is Canon. This means it can be used in a debate. Insisting that the 'full potential' of chaos hasn't even been defined by the game's creators means it is Not Canon. Therefore it cannot be used in a debate, period.

Yes, the Imperium used chaos for FTL travel. How fast is it? How dangerous? Does the distance in realspace affect the odds of successfully completing the trip? Those are the numbers we want. If you want to be a positive contributor to this debate, see if you can find any.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

The Geller Field is the psychic shielding that protects a ship from the warp, it is the layer underneath the ship's void shielding. When the Geller Field breaks, the ship itself is vulnerable to daemonic possession.

Now there is a reason why it is called the "Dark Age of Technology" and why that era no longer exists. You don't need an Astropath to make a warp jump. You'll end up somewhere on the opposite side of the universe, but you can do it. That's why part of the objective of the Great Crusade was to reunite humanity that was lost to the stars during the Age of Strife and the Dark Age of Technology.

In addition, the power of the psykers always existed, and psykers too have always existed. During the Dark Age of Technology though, that sort of paranormal power wasn't recognized and acknowledged by scientific principal. In fact it stayed that way until the Horus Heresy occurs in the year 30,000.

The issue of the Fed is that the Warp would be a brand new issue to them, they would only know that this enemy they face use some kind of FTL travel method that they have never seen. They would need some point to start their research, and even if they did they don't have the psykers or the experience in warp travel to use this extremely dangerous medium to any real effect.

If the Fed used the warp, knowing they don't have the astropaths or the astronomicon to guide them. Then they'd all end up like Voyager out in no-where's-ville.

You didn't actually answer his question; go back and try that again...

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Warhammer isn't a game of naval combat so precise specs of ship-to-ship warfare aren't as defined as Star Trek where ship-to-ship warfare is the main theme of the franchise.

Because of that, I don't have any proof that the Fed does in fact out range or out power the IoM.

Nor will you have proof, since proof doesn't exist in empirical exercises. Proof is a mathematical term, and outside of scientific analysis. That's Science 101.


What you can have is evidence. Simply give the farthest engagement range that you are canonically aware of, and we'll compare.

[Catamount]

Also, Miles, you didn't answer my questions about 40K weapon yields.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:26 PM, said:

The Geller Field is the psychic shielding that protects a ship from the warp, it is the layer underneath the ship's void shielding. When the Geller Field breaks, the ship itself is vulnerable to daemonic possession.

Now there is a reason why it is called the "Dark Age of Technology" and why that era no longer exists. You don't need an Astropath to make a warp jump. You'll end up somewhere on the opposite side of the universe, but you can do it. That's why part of the objective of the Great Crusade was to reunite humanity that was lost to the stars during the Age of Strife and the Dark Age of Technology.

In addition, the power of the psykers always existed, and psykers too have always existed. During the Dark Age of Technology though, that sort of paranormal power wasn't recognized and acknowledged by scientific principal. In fact it stayed that way until the Horus Heresy occurs in the year 30,000.

The issue of the Fed is that the Warp would be a brand new issue to them, they would only know that this enemy they face use some kind of FTL travel method that they have never seen. They would need some point to start their research, and even if they did they don't have the psykers or the experience in warp travel to use this extremely dangerous medium to any real effect.

If the Fed used the warp, knowing they don't have the astropaths or the astronomicon to guide them. Then they'd all end up like Voyager out in no-where's-ville.

You did not answer my question. If the Immaterium requires psykers or the help of psykers to detect or manipulate, then how did Mankind develop Warp-drive and the Gellar Field thousands of years before science recognized the existence of psykers?

If 15th Millenium Mankind could develop Warp-Drive and the Gellar Field without the help of psykers, in a civilization dominated by scientific understanding and development, then knowledge of the Immaterium IS attainable through scientific and technological means, without the help of psykers.


Furthermore, what I have read of the Dark Age of Technology implies that Warp-drive travel WAS reliable, for ten thousand years. It was only when the Eldar civilization fell and the god Slaanesh was born in the 25th Millenium that the warp became wracked by warp storms that made warp travel increasingly unreliable (one of many factors contributing to the fall of civilization).

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Ugh, you keep insisting chaos is unexplainable yet half explain it at the same time. Allow me to finish:

Chaos is also itself the turbulent psychic energy that comprises the Immaterium. Chaos is almost synonymous with the Warp -- the two concepts are inseparable, for Chaos is the limitless ocean of spiritual, psychic and emotional energy that defines the Immaterium and underlies the 4-dimensional material universe of space-time. It is a great and raw force of change and power, and is both physically and spiritually corrupting, though it is not in itself necessarily "evil."

The most evolutionarily-advanced mortals, psykers, can utilize this energy, thus making them capable of abilities which transcend the standard physical laws of the material universe as Mankind understands them. However, the malevolent power of Chaos can gradually corrupt a psyker, tainting his mind and body and turning him into the slave of the Ruinous Powers.

This is taken from the Wiki. It is Canon. This means it can be used in a debate. Insisting that the 'full potential' of chaos hasn't even been defined by the game's creators means it is Not Canon. Therefore it cannot be used in a debate, period.

Yes, the Imperium used chaos for FTL travel. How fast is it? How dangerous? Does the distance in realspace affect the odds of successfully completing the trip? Those are the numbers we want. If you want to be a positive contributor to this debate, see if you can find any.

But what does that tell you? Nothing. It doesn't explain anything I haven't already explained. Catamount wants to know just how powerful the Warp is. I told you it's a realm of psychic backdrop, I told you it's used for FTL, I told you entities exist in the warp. I have told you everything that the wiki can tell you.

What Catamount wants isn't something that exists. That is my point. Don't get how RANDOM the Warp is? It's not a constant thing like Star Trek FTL. Sometimes the Warp will take you from 1 end of the milky way to the other in 3 weeks. Sometimes you never come out of the warp. It is R-A-N-D-O-M. The speed in which you travel in Warp space is related to how fast the warp currents are travelling in your desired direction.

If you stop trying to compare Warp travel to Star Trek FTL travel, it would be a lot easier. Warp Travel is DIFFERENT.

[Miles Tails Prower]

ilithi dragon, on 24 December 2011 - 02:33 PM, said:

You did not answer my question. If the Immaterium requires psykers or the help of psykers to detect or manipulate, then how did Mankind develop Warp-drive and the Gellar Field thousands of years before science recognized the existence of psykers?

If 15th Millenium Mankind could develop Warp-Drive and the Gellar Field without the help of psykers, in a civilization dominated by scientific understanding and development, then knowledge of the Immaterium IS attainable through scientific and technological means, without the help of psykers.

Furthermore, what I have read of the Dark Age of Technology implies that Warp-drive travel WAS reliable, for ten thousand years. It was only when the Eldar civilization fell and the god Slaanesh was born in the 25th Millenium that the warp became wracked by warp storms that made warp travel increasingly unreliable (one of many factors contributing to the fall of civilization).

I did answer your question. I said that you CAN travel through the warp without an astropath but it isn't FEASIBLE because you will be LOST inside the warp without an astropath to NAVIGATE the warp currents. If you asked a ship captain to make a warp jump without an astropath, he would think you were suicidal.

But that isn't how it is right now. Right now you need an astropath to help you navigate the Warp currents, OR you do what the Tau do which use an alternate FTL method that is safer but slower than Warp travel.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 02:40 PM.

[Catamount]

Miles

His point is that even in 40K, science DID have some understanding of the warp, because that science was developing warp-based technologies BEFORE they acknowledged and sought help from the psykers.


Ergo, your claim that the warp can't be understood is not only logically fallacious and self-defeating, but now, demonstrably wrong.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 02:41 PM.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:36 PM, said:

What Catamount wants isn't something that exists.

Which is why your statements are invalid.


You have no evidence about the warp, so you rely on self-defeating statements and logical fallacies.

[steelwraith]

Ok, so both the time it takes to complete a warp and the chances of succeeding are both random. So what do we do with random numbers? We find an average (or a medium). Now, what would be the average time it would take to complete a warp? How many ships on average would survive such a trip (out of say 100)?

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

His point is that even in 40K, science DID have some understanding of the warp, because that science was developing warp-based technologies BEFORE they acknowledged and sought help from the psykers.

This is why it's impossible to explain things to Non-Warhammer fans. Because to explain to you why you travel the warp and do all these crazy things in it will have to go around and dig into things you will never understand or even be willing to understand like the Chaos Gods.

So I'll put it this way.

You get to travel the Warp, because the Chaos Gods say so. If the Chaos Gods DID'T want people entering the warp, they wouldn't be trying to pierce holes into the material realm and spill the warp directly into our plane of existence. We are allowed to navigate the Warp because it suits the Chaos Gods.

That is the simplest way I can put it. The Chaos Gods run the show.

[Catamount]

Also, Miles, you're still not answering my questions about the factors we can clearly quantify.


You're bringing up weapons, but not answering basic questions about them, nor about observed combat ranges.



I'll be honest, you're not really contributing much to this VS discussion. By nature, VS discussions are comparisons of quantifiable evidence, and you haven't offered a single shred of such evidence.


If you want to offer something useful, please answer my questions about your claims on weaponry.

[steelwraith]

Whoops forgot to add, and this is the most important figure of all, how accurate is the warp? Can they regularly warp within a planetary orbit, or is the exit point random?

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

This is why it's impossible to explain things to Non-Warhammer fans. Because to explain to you why you travel the warp and do all these crazy things in it will have to go around and dig into things you will never understand or even be willing to understand like the Chaos Gods.

So I'll put it this way.

You get to travel the Warp, because the Chaos Gods say so. If the Chaos Gods DID'T want people entering the warp, they wouldn't be trying to pierce holes into the material realm and spill the warp directly into our plane of existence. We are allowed to navigate the Warp because it suits the Chaos Gods.

That is the simplest way I can put it. The Chaos Gods run the show.

You still didn't answer the question, and now you're dancing around it.


If the warp cannot be understood on any level, then how was warp-based technology developed without the help of the psychers?


Okay, so the "gods" let it happen, but how was that technology developed in the first place, using science, without psykers, who were not yet approached for help or even acknowledged?


Can you answer that question, or can't you?

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 02:43 PM, said:

Ok, so both the time it takes to complete a warp and the chances of succeeding are both random. So what do we do with random numbers? We find an average (or a medium). Now, what would be the average time it would take to complete a warp? How many ships on average would survive such a trip (out of say 100)?

Travelling the warp is like a forecast.

This is how it works.

Captain Steelwraith says: "We have orders from the High Lords of terra, I need to travel to Segmentum Obscurus. Astropath! How long will the sojourn take?"

Astropath: I've heard the roar of the Warp, its currents are extremely turbulent. Warp travel now may take four months, though the turbulence of the Warp bears a risk of being thrown off course."

You see? It's like a weather forecast. The captain asks the Astropath how safe, and how long it takes to travel from A to B. There isn't an exact amount of time, it varies based on how "cooperative" the warp is at the moment.

The Warp is very accurate as long as the currents are calm, the more rough the currents become, the more of a margin of error occurs. The Astronomicon allows Astropaths to know the locations of massive Warp storms, so Warp FTL travel is plotted around them.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 02:48 PM.