1189 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 03:06 PM, said:

If the the travel between A and B is safe, then Warp travel is extremely accurate. But you have to understand that distance doesn't always factor into the equation like a person might think.

Let us say there are 2 ships Alpha and Baker, and their destination is Charlie. Let us also say that Alpha is closer to Charlie than Baker is in terms of raw units of distance.

The time for Alpha and Baker to reach Charlie will vary using Warp Travel. Baker could reach Charlie before Alpha even though Baker is mathmatically farther, because Baker might have more conductive Warp Currents carrying their ship to Charlie than Alpha does.

That is why it is difficult to give precise time estimates. Because the time to travel is based on the cooperativeness of the Warp currents.

So give me data on averages of what HAS BEEN seen

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 02:59 PM, said:

2: What is the relationship between size and power for 40K weaponry? What weapon can do what? Quantify as exactly as you can; we know there's always uncertainties (as in, if you blow up a city, you have some unknowns on how much energy it took), but do what you can to offer the best constraints you can.

Here is one example. The typical anti-ship warhead is a torpedo of about 200 feet in length and carry plasma munitions that do not need to hit their target to destroy them. The warheads implode based on proximity and create small reactions not unlike a star going nova. There are several variations of the weapon that vary in destructive power.

[steelwraith]

Yeah, thats pretty much standard FTL physics for a lot of sci-fi settings, Babylon 5 for one, only without the gods.

It reminds me of a couple of stories:

1. Whenever a ship wants to enter hyperspace, the entire crew must be drugged and rendered unconscious. Anyone who enters warp while awake inevitable winds up completely insane. Nobody knew why, since nobody ever came back sane enough to describe what happened...

2. A stargate on the planetary surface malfunctions, and starts leaking astral energy. Fast forward a few hundred years and most of the planet has been covered, leaving only islands of civilization. In order to survive, people had to traverse the energy to trade with other islands... but they had to be quick, because the longer you were in it the greater the chances you would start to go mad. And since thought and reality was the same, as your mind started to warp, so did your body... and eventually you become another lunatic monster.

Pretty much minor deviations of the old astral plane=FTL travel concept.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

So give me data on averages of what HAS BEEN seen

I am pouring through all my sources. I have no information of estimated jump times that have been done. Even all the books I've read explain the journey in time, but not distance. So telling you that the Eisenstein travelled through the warp for 1 month wouldn't amount to much since the distance travelled from point A to point B was not given. Not to mention it was an emergency jump by a crippled ship. I do know that they went somewhere REALLY far away.

I do know that the Astronomicon has an effective range(it's like a beacon when in the warp) of 50,000 light years from Terra(Earth).

I also know that the typical warp jump is about 4-5 light years in distance, but the ship can press further than that if the Navigator maneuvers the ship through the warp personally.

Also. A race that does not have psychic power cannot fully enter the warp because it is a realm of psychic power. If you cast no backdrop, you cannot enter the warp. The more psychically attuned a race is to the warp, the easier it is for them to navigate the warp. Because the more attuned you are to the warp, the more akin you are in raw psychic power to daemons who live in the warp, and the better training the individual can have in navigating/predicting warp currents.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:28 PM.

[steelwraith]

Sounds like distance isn't a factor, so just give us the times.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

Sounds like distance isn't a factor, so just give us the times.

True. But remember that time and distance are equally important when it comes to travel. Even more so when regarding the Warp. Travelling in the Warp for 1 month for 2 different ships could result in extremely different outcomes.

Your Dark Eldar don't have to worry about this, since they use an alternate FTL method.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:23 PM.

[steelwraith]

Maybe so, but we're only looking for a ballpark figure here. Since you mentioned months several times, I'm going to assume that the average time is say 1-3 months.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

Here is one example. The typical anti-ship warhead is a torpedo of about 200 feet in length and carry plasma munitions that do not need to hit their target to destroy them. The warheads implode based on proximity and create small reactions not unlike a star going nova. There are several variations of the weapon that vary in destructive power.

Hmm, that's not enough information to go off of.

What kind of warhead is it? Fusion? Chemical? Is the mass of the warhead known? If not, can you show it to me on a diagram so I could take some guesses?

What sort of ranges are observed for the effects?

[Ilithi Dragon]

Miles, you have been describing warp travel in the modern state of 40K, AFTER the fall of the Eldar civilization sparked the birth of Slaanesh and the destabilizing warp storms that made warp travel dangerous and unreliable. For 10,000 years, warp travel was relatively safe and reliable, especially after the development of Navigators (which allowed longer jumps to be safer and more reliable).

Now, since the fall of the Eldar civilization and the birth of Slaanesh, travel through the Warp has become inherently dangerous and unreliable without the Astronomican acting as a lighthouse beacon, because of the warp storms. But the inherent point is that warp was easily manipulable by technological means prior to the advent of psykers and the Imperium, it's only been relatively recent disruptions in the Immaterium that have made travel through the Warp difficult.

Those disruptions aside, science has been canonically demonstrated to be quite capable of developing technological methods for interacting with the Immaterium, and given sufficient technology, could probably solve all of the IoM's Warp problems.

Jeremiah_Rose, on 24 December 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

Im for Honor Harrington why this wasent told i didnt know. You have space ships and all the other stuff and their is no real space battle without hunderets x-ray lasers powered with megaton sice Nuklearwarheads.

I love the Honorverse. Great series. It wouldn't be able to compete with the more advanced series, but it would probably still be able to give many of them a good run for their money, especially later in the series.

[steelwraith]

In any case, we can start making comparisons in FTL travel:

In 40k, ships enter hyperspace (I'm using the term generically) completely. Realspace distance is not a factor, but rather depends on the hyperspace 'tides'. End result, a universal though somewhat random time to complete the trip. Trip is also somewhat hazardous due to being in a hostile environment.

In ST, ships draw energy from hyperspace to form a warp bubble, allowing FTL travel without actually leaving realspace. Though much safer, this mode of travel is constrained to realspace physics... in other words, it takes longer to go farther.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 03:28 PM, said:

Hmm, that's not enough information to go off of.

They don't have an exact range, but the weapon is capable of attacking ships in space from the surface of a planet and thus must have the energy to escape a planet's gravity.

The warheads can vary since you can put different ones on.

They have direct impact warheads that discharge some type of munition into the ship directly by piercing through the hull of the ship such as...

Melta munitions. Melta a fuel that consists of a fuel that burns on a sub-atomic level, the effects on flesh are instant vaporization and metal is reduced to slag on contact.

Viral munitions. Viral minitionis carry the life-eater virus which is an airborn pathogen that attacks organic tissue(plant, animal, bacteria etc) and reduces it to biological sludge.

There are also proximity detonated warheads, that just need to be close enough to a target to be detonated for the desired effect.

Vortex munition: Vortex munitions have charges akin to "warp drives" on them. When detonated they cause an unstable warp rift and tear reality apart. Objects near the blast are inhaled and lost to the mercy of the warp.

Nova: The nova uses a plasma charge to cause a chain reaction at the point of detonation. The reaction is akin to a sun going nova.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:39 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

In any case, we can start making comparisons in FTL travel:

In 40k, ships enter hyperspace (I'm using the term generically) completely. Realspace distance is not a factor, but rather depends on the hyperspace 'tides'. End result, a universal though somewhat random time to complete the trip. Trip is also somewhat hazardous due to being in a hostile environment.

In ST, ships draw energy from hyperspace to form a warp bubble, allowing FTL travel without actually leaving realspace. Though much safer, this mode of travel is constrained to realspace physics... in other words, it takes longer to go farther.

Sounds about right to me.

ST FTL should be more reliable. While 40k FTL is more powerful, but more variable.

Personally I'd prefer ST FTL. Once your Geller Field goes out... wooo boy you might as well shoot yourself... though that admittedly probably won't matter since life and death doesn't mean much in the warp.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:42 PM.

[steelwraith]

If I may postulate further:

Since a 40k ship is effectively not in the universe while warping, it can't be detected until it actually leaves warp. A valid question would then be, how long does it take to leave warp? It's assumed that ST sensors will detect the timespace disruption, but how much reaction time would they have?

Note also that while 40k ships are completely removed from battle during warp, ST ships are capable of battle during warp... though this may depend on where you are in the ST timeline.

[Miles Tails Prower]

ilithi dragon, on 24 December 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

Those disruptions aside, science has been canonically demonstrated to be quite capable of developing technological methods for interacting with the Immaterium, and given sufficient technology, could probably solve all of the IoM's Warp problems.

Yeah I agree with what you say to a point. The problem is the Chaos Gods.

This is like mad hard to explain, but here I go, don't care how crazy I sound.

Okay so here it is.

The Chaos Gods are omniscient. The know all. They see all. And I mean like waaaaay far into the future. The Chaos Gods know events that are going to happen 10,000 years before they actually do.

Like the Fall of the Imperium.

That was set in motion by the Chaos Gods countless years before it happened. The Chaos Gods knew that a being known as "The God Emperor" would one day enter the stage of time. Since time isn't too relevant to the Chaos Gods, they took as long as they wanted to orchestrate his downfall. They do this because they are super mad powerful gods of unimaginable power and it amuses them.

It amuses them.

Why do the forces of Chaos go about raping, murdering and pillaging? Because it amuses the Chaos gods. And if you amuse the Chaos gods you might get even the SLIGHTEST sliver of attention from them. If you can manage that, they will bend laws of the universe to make you far more than a mere man.

Like take a champion of Slaanesh for example. Pit him against a Star Trek Federation soldier 1v1. Slaaneshi champions have INSANE senses, the world moves in slow motion to them. They can see your muscles pull the trigger on your gun, they know what direction the gun is pointing and can move out of the way with inhuman agility. Their voice is shrill enough to rupture ear drums.

I mean geez look at what they look like!

The Warp is the mad ultra insane crazy realm of randomly infinite things! It's probably where Peter Griffin lives!

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:51 PM.

[steelwraith]

I should also add that ships won't be able to chase each other, so as soon as one enter warp they're safe.

[Catamount]

One note about detection of ships in FTL, the immaterium sounds amazingly like subspace in Trek, and such ships also leave the normal universe. In fact, William Riker was once abducted into subspace, into an entire lab constructed in sub-space (the lab contained a "bubble" of normal space inside, so that the subspace aliens could study humans).

Yet, ships are still detectable at warp, because the sensors themselves manipulate subspace, and detect perturbations in subspace. Out of the box, I'm sure not what races could detect what where (In Stargate, the Asgard can also detect ships in subspace, as can the Ancients). Races can already detect ships in subspace, so if that's related to the immaterium, which I postulate a high probability of, ships in the Warp should already be detectable, but if they aren't, technology to detect them should still be able to be developed, as, again, the warp can be manipulated (again, it sounds amazingly like subspace in Trek and Stargate).

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 03:53 PM, said:

I should also add that ships won't be able to chase each other, so as soon as one enter warp they're safe.

Haha yes now we're making progress, although "safe" is a relative term.

Oh yeah and don't forget this is how all Imperium Technology works when performing FTL and similar actions. For example, the Imperium can teleport people, and objects(vehicles) using the same technology. In fact Space Marines themselves can be equipped with personal teleporters. Every one of these teleportations are the same as jumping through the warp.

That's why I say if you want to cut the Warp out of the equation, then you basically cut the Imperium out of the equation.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 03:57 PM.

[Ilithi Dragon]

For the purposes of a VS debate, I propose that we treat any form of subspace, hyperspace, warp, etc. as the same thing. It greatly simplifies things, and we'd have to allow for some sort of thing like that in any kind of cross-over scenario anyway. So the Warp or the Immaterium is the same as subspace, it's just inhabited by different subspace aliens that can influence it and affect realspace

[Catamount]

Also, one other thing of note.


The warp itself may be subject to some intrinsic unpredictability because there's a living component (especially to the chaos side, supposedly the physical manifestation of emotion, as I understand it), but to go back to what you can do with subspace, if I might make an analogy, if you had a living being made of fire, they still wouldn't necessarily be able to enter a lake.


There are very likely technological means to stop things from going between the warp and normal space (in either direction), and we already know purely technological means can both project warp energy and block it.



So there is likely a hell of a lot one can do to affect, utilize, and defend against the warp. It's a shame the Imperium doesn't look further into that, because they might well find that through a certain level of understanding some of the fundamental physics at work, even if they couldn't control the will of a living chaos god, they might well be able to better stop the immaterium from interfering with affairs in normal space (and threatening the existence of all life).

[Miles Tails Prower]

ilithi dragon, on 24 December 2011 - 03:58 PM, said:

For the purposes of a VS debate, I propose that we treat any form of subspace, hyperspace, warp, etc. as the same thing. It greatly simplifies things, and we'd have to allow for some sort of thing like that in any kind of cross-over scenario anyway. So the Warp or the Immaterium is the same as subspace, it's just inhabited by different subspace aliens that can influence it and affect realspace

An interesting idea. How would you simulate the storms inside warhammer warp to ST subspace if they're going to travel into the same place? And don't forget the Imperium often use Warp bombs to destroy their enemies by purposely sending them into the warp recklessly.

Cause that's an issue where no one can say "Well the Warp is more important the Subspace so the Warp is going to obviously take prescedence." And vice versa.