1189 replies to this topic

[Miles Tails Prower]

I want to highlight this since it is an interesting misconception about Warhammer 40,000.

Catamount, on 23 December 2011 - 12:06 PM, said:

The Imperium is the tragic remains of what was once an actual civilization, a band of ravaged religious fundamentalists who have spent thousands of years following of course of trying to solve their problems by abandoning the very means to solve their problems, throwing actual valuable knowledge and science and the societal growth necessary to use it properly to the wind in hopes that becoming a LESS advanced, LESS knowledgeable society will magically save them if they embrace a bunch of outmoded voodoo mystic nonsense, and they're a downright evil institution because of it.

10,000 years ago when the Imperium was in its Golden Age, directly after the Dark Age of Technology and the Age of Strife. This is the civilization you speak of.

This is the reality of it all.

In Warhammer 30,000 it wasn't any different.

If you were religious in Warhammer 30,000, you'd be persecuted and not uncommonly beaten to death. If you didn't accept the secular Imperial Truth you were just as persecuted as you are in Warhammer 40,000 for not bowing to the Imperial Cult. In Warhammer 30,000 the people rejected the notion of spirits, daemons and super natural forces as completely impossible. They were just as close minded about things science couldn't prove as the Imperium is in Warhammer 40,000 about issues going against the Imperial Creed.

Do you have any idea how many species of aliens were exterminated in Warhammer 30,000 for being non-humans during the Emperor's Great Crusade? They have entire museums of preserved aliens in stasis to catalogue the civilizations they've annhilated.

Not much has changed in the mentality of the way the Imperium operates. It's just a switch from rationalism to fundamentalism.

Take for example during the book "Horus Rising", the main character(Loken) has a conversation with his mentor about the ethics of forcing Imperium rule on civilizations through military force. He asked if it was right to force their way of life on people, what if they want to live their own way Loken asked. This was their little debate. "If you see a boy drowing in a lake what do you do?" "I jump in and save him." "What if the boy is afraid of you and doesn't want to be rescued?" "I save him anyways, it's for his benefit." "Isn't that the same issue with the people we bring the Imperial Truth to?"

There is no better world many people believe existed in Warhammer. It's just a change in philosophy, the governing and mentality remains intact. In Warhammer 30,000 the people were just ignorant to the inevitability of Chaos.

The Imperium shuns the technology of other species as a defense against Chaos. All machines have a "Machine Spirit" and the equipment of alien species could have tainted machine spirits which could introduce Chaos corruption into the Imperium's ranks. Does it slow down their research of technology? Yes. But defense against chaos is drastically more important than technological advancement because technology doesn't help you fight Chaos.

That is the truth about the before and after of the Imperium of Man.

The Imperium of Man is the essence of survival. It's easy to say they're backwards if you don't have a thorough understanding of Warhammer 40,000.

When it comes to Star Trek, I admittedly know as much as the next guy who watched the TV shows. But when you talk about Warhammer 40,000 you are stepping onto my side of the field, and I have a wealth of knowledge about the lore of Warhammer 40,000.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 02:21 AM.

[steelwraith]

Again, you keep backing up your argument with 'just because'. If you can't quantify your argument then it becomes meaningless... like kids yelling 'I shot you first!' while playing cops and robbers. After all, I could just say that the Q race could simply wipe out all of the Imperium with a single thought. Deus Ex Machina.

And yes, I did play 40k, Dark Eldar to be exact. I consulted the wiki to refresh my memory and check details. Attempting to discredit my argument by attacking my knowledge of the genre isn't very nice now, is it?

Edited by steelwraith, 24 December 2011 - 04:18 AM.

[Catamount]

Steelwraith is right, Miles


Your arguments, in the end, basically boil down, 100% of the time to "X would win, and the Federation wouldn't able to do A about X, because I say so".


That isn't an argument. Well, actually, it is; it's a bare assertion fallacy.



You do it with the warp, and you do it with chaos.

The only evidence we have regarding either of these things is that they're beyond 40K science (as of present canon) to understand. That's it. That's the only thing you, or anyone else has to go on, and it's a meaningless argument.



Unless you can present something of greater substance of evidence, "The Imperium/40K would win, because I say so" isn't really going to cut it, especially when very direct, quantifiable evidence has been presented to the contrary.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

You see the people in this forum are like the Imperium in the year 30,000. They're like "Chaos? What the frig is that? Everything can be explained by the Imperial Truth(science)."

and if they hadn't buried their heads in the sand, that would have probably eventually proven true,
because the "god in the gaps" argument has never, ever held up, and at the end of the day, your entire argument is boiling down to exactly that: a god in the gaps fallacy, which really just ends up becoming another form of "because I say so" in your arguments.


But since we're trading personal impressions, do you want to know what you remind me of?

You remind me of the ancient primitives who once comprised what we call human civilization, cowering in terror at solar eclipses and the rumblings of the Earth, assuming that because you couldn't explain it with the tools you had at hand, that nothing ever could, and that only fanciful tales of mysticism and nonsense would be able to help you to conceptualize it.

You're like the Greeks, who, failing to explain the Sun with the four elements, decided instead to attribute it to Apollo's chariot riding across the sky.


Everything is unexplainable until it's not; you've just elected to truncate the last three words off that sentence.



You'll forgive some of the rest of us if "because I say so" is not sufficient justification for us to accept such a statement, which is not only undemonstrated, but has, throughout history, been demonstrated to be wrong, by every single phenomena that has ever been claimed to be "inherently unexplainable", and tested for that assumption.

You and the Eldar can cower at the sky if you please, but I think I'll rely on the approach that has generally yielded better results. You're welcome to join anytime.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 08:04 AM.

[Catamount]

And just to sum this up, let's take every advantage from both sides and see what we get:

Here's what lands in favor of each franchise:

Trek:

-Trek technology has weaponry upward of two orders of magnitude more powerful

-Trek has a reliable form of FTL that they can use with ease, at no risk to themselves, while IoM "warp" travel is a shaky proposition to even consider. Entire fleets have been lost just for entering FTL

-Trek ships are advanced, well-engineered vessels, with nearly 360 degrees by 360 degrees weapons coverage of their big guns at all times, and are able to bring nearly 100% of their firepower to bear on any target at any location relative to themselves; IoM ships are largely primitive pre-dreadnought designs, with engineering that would have been considered quaint in World War I.

-Trek has FTL-combat capability

-Trek has sophisticated science and technology, an underlying understanding of the universe that the IoM does not, and as such Trek powers are able to quickly develop counters to new types of threats

-As a subpoint, nothing presented by the IoM shows any likelihood of being a new threat



Here's what we have in the IoM's favor:

-A user insists that the IoM would win, and Trek technology would be ineffective at countering them, because he says so (and with all due respect to the user, that isn't very compelling).

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 08:20 AM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

steelwraith, on 24 December 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

Again, you keep backing up your argument with 'just because'. If you can't quantify your argument then it becomes meaningless... like kids yelling 'I shot you first!' while playing cops and robbers. After all, I could just say that the Q race could simply wipe out all of the Imperium with a single thought. Deus Ex Machina.

And yes, I did play 40k, Dark Eldar to be exact. I consulted the wiki to refresh my memory and check details. Attempting to discredit my argument by attacking my knowledge of the genre isn't very nice now, is it?

You are really bad at understanding things.

You cannot quantify something that has limitless potential. You cannot measure something that exceeds all understanding. You are trying to do the impossible. I cannot quantify the Warp because it is BEYOND understanding.

Am I not typing in the King's language of english clearly enough for you? What you are requesting is something that cannot be done. Chaos cannot be quantified.

And yes I can attack your knowledge of 40k since playing the game does not equal out to understanding the lore.

I agree, you could say the Q could wipe out the IoM if they wanted to. Fortunately for the IoM this is a battle between the Fed and IoM.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 08:55 AM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

Unless you can present something of greater substance of evidence, "The Imperium/40K would win, because I say so" isn't really going to cut it, especially when very direct, quantifiable evidence has been presented to the contrary.

Basically what you are doing is just ignoring all the points that you cannot go around, and focusing on the mystical aspect of the warp. You don't have to grasp the concept of the warp, but your comprehension of the warp isn't required. I already explained several times in detail why the Fed cannot use the warp, I talked about the Emperor and how the Fed doesn't have anything like him. They don't have anything similar to the Astronomicon. If this doesn't make sense to you then you didn't read my entire posts.

The bottom line is that the Fed cannot combat IoM teleportation because the Fed has no ability to use the warp. They have no ability do anything with the warp because their psionics are juvenile compared to IoM. Without the proper psionics you could not read the warp, you could not sense the warp, you could not detect Warhammer FTL travel. This isn't like Star Wars or another show with generic FTL travel through an alternate space, the warp(which is Chaos btw) is its own character in Warhammer. It is different.

Even if the Fed could learn create machinery that manipulates warp energy like the IoM, they don't have the psionics to protect their ship from the warp itself. Conventional protection like armor and non-warp based shielding is useless against warp based entities and energies. And even then, the Fed would obviously be unable to invent these technologies in time to save their fleets when they are already locked in battle. The Warp/Chaos is a PSYCHIC issue, and the Fed has laughable psychic understanding and power compared to the IoM. You cannot use science in the place of a psyker, most warp scientists in the Imperium ARE psykers.

And lets go back to issues we spoke about.

How will your ship crews resist thousands upon thousands of boarding parties from the entire might of the IoM fleet?

How will you beam back your foes when they are teleported into your engineering deck? Where did you think they'd show up? Specifically somewhere convenient for you like the cafeteria?

How will you fight the Space Marines who have weapons that kill you easily? Put your fancy Fed armor on. Plasma Guns will go right through it, Melta Guns will go right through it, flame throwers will cook them alive inside their armor. If they have any flesh showing on their armor at all, an Astartes can hit them. If they don't wear helmets, Space Marines can score head shots quite easily even when firing from the hip.

That's not even bringing up the issue of psykers which the Fed would have no way to combat. Their knowledge of psionics is rudimentery compared to the IoM.

The Fed is outnumbered on insane levels, they're totally surrounded and there are more Space Marines and Imperial Guardsman in their ships than there are Fed crewmen.

Your technology only goes so far.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 09:38 AM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

You'll forgive some of the rest of us if "because I say so" is not sufficient justification for us to accept such a statement, which is not only undemonstrated, but has, throughout history, been demonstrated to be wrong, by every single phenomena that has ever been claimed to be "inherently unexplainable", and tested for that assumption.

The "rest of us" appears to be two people at the moment.

Back to Chaos.

No you can't explain Chaos. It doesn't follow your logic, it is the exception to the rule. You can explain all other phenomena except Chaos. Trying to use your logic to explain why you can somehow understand and quantify Chaos is futility. There is no force, no science, no species, there is nothing that is able to understand Chaos. Your scientific laws and methods are playthings to Chaos, humans are too trapped in their mortal coils, they have to exist in boundaries of law and order. Chaos is the opposite of law and order, how can you use your science, your rules, your laws, on something that doesn't have any rules or laws? If that doesn't make any sense to you, good, because it's not supposed to. It's Chaos. It cannot be understood.

Even the people who study the warp can only describe it in vague descriptions like "it's like a symphony" or "it is all colors, yet no colors at all." And the answer is because it is Chaos, it cannot be explained.

You can try, by all means have at it. More races in Warhammer than ever have existed in Star Trek have attempted to understand Chaos. All they can tell you is that it is the enemy of all.

That is why it is Chaos.

To save you further discussion about Chaos, you should probably be aware that as long as you repeat that you can scientifically somehow explain/understand Chaos then I will reply with the same reason why you can't explain/understand Chaos. So I would make the recommendation of staying on the Star Trek side of the field since you obviously don't understand the Warhammer side.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 09:51 AM.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 08:53 AM, said:

You are really bad at understanding things.

You cannot quantify something that has limitless potential. You cannot measure something that exceeds all understanding. You are trying to do the impossible. I cannot quantify the Warp because it is BEYOND understanding.

Am I not typing in the King's language of english clearly enough for you? What you are requesting is something that cannot be done. Chaos cannot be quantified.

And yes I can attack your knowledge of 40k since playing the game does not equal out to understanding the lore.

I agree, you could say the Q could wipe out the IoM if they wanted to. Fortunately for the IoM this is a battle between the Fed and IoM.

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

The "rest of us" appears to be two people at the moment.

Back to Chaos.

No you can't explain Chaos. It doesn't follow your logic, it is the exception to the rule. You can explain all other phenomena except Chaos. Trying to use your logic to explain why you can somehow understand and quantify Chaos is futility. There is no force, no science, no species, there is nothing that is able to understand Chaos. Your scientific laws and methods are playthings to Chaos, humans are too trapped in their mortal coils, they have to exist in boundaries of law and order. Chaos is the opposite of law and order, how can you use your science, your rules, your laws, on something that doesn't have any rules or laws? If that doesn't make any sense to you, good, because it's not supposed to. It's Chaos. It cannot be understood.

Even the people who study the warp can only describe it in vague descriptions like "it's like a symphony" or "it is all colors, yet no colors at all." And the answer is because it is Chaos, it cannot be explained.

You can try, by all means have at it. More races in Warhammer than ever have existed in Star Trek have attempted to understand Chaos. All they can tell you is that it is the enemy of all.

That is why it is Chaos.

To save you further discussion about Chaos, you should probably be aware that as long as you repeat that you can scientifically somehow explain/understand Chaos then I will reply with the same reason why you can't explain/understand Chaos. So I would make the recommendation of staying on the Star Trek side of the field since you obviously don't understand the Warhammer side.

Both of these posts basically amount to "because I say so".


Unless you can provide something more substantial than "because I say so", then nothing here really constitutes a valid argument.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Since I appear to be out numbered in these issues I am calling out for reinforcements.

With the axe of Khorne I sunder reality and bring fourth my brothers from across the galaxy. I am taking this dicussion to a higher level!

Behold. The thread has been created.

http://www.spacemari...rums/topic/9399

I also call to Hugh Fox with the six whispers of Slaanesh to bring fourth additional opinions.

http://foxhugh.wordp...-warhammer-40k/

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 10:54 AM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 10:52 AM, said:

Both of these posts basically amount to "because I say so".


Unless you can provide something more substantial than "because I say so", then nothing here really constitutes a valid argument.

And the continuation of the dodging of issues. I'm seeing a pattern here now, it seems that anything that isn't in your line of experience isn't a valid point. Maybe you you should join the Imperium of Man.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 10:56 AM.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

Basically what you are doing is just ignoring all the points that you cannot go around, and focusing on the mystical aspect of the warp. You don't have to grasp the concept of the warp, but your comprehension of the warp isn't required. I already explained several times in detail why the Fed cannot use the warp, I talked about the Emperor and how the Fed doesn't have anything like him. They don't have anything similar to the Astronomicon. If this doesn't make sense to you then you didn't read my entire posts.

The bottom line is that the Fed cannot combat IoM teleportation because the Fed has no ability to use the warp. They have no ability do anything with the warp because their psionics are juvenile compared to IoM. Without the proper psionics you could not read the warp, you could not sense the warp, you could not detect Warhammer FTL travel. This isn't like Star Wars or another show with generic FTL travel through an alternate space, the warp(which is Chaos btw) is its own character in Warhammer. It is different.

Even if the Fed could learn create machinery that manipulates warp energy like the IoM, they don't have the psionics to protect their ship from the warp itself. Conventional protection like armor and non-warp based shielding is useless against warp based entities and energies. And even then, the Fed would obviously be unable to invent these technologies in time to save their fleets when they are already locked in battle. The Warp/Chaos is a PSYCHIC issue, and the Fed has laughable psychic understanding and power compared to the IoM. You cannot use science in the place of a psyker, most warp scientists in the Imperium ARE psykers.

And lets go back to issues we spoke about.

How will your ship crews resist thousands upon thousands of boarding parties from the entire might of the IoM fleet?

How will you beam back your foes when they are teleported into your engineering deck? Where did you think they'd show up? Specifically somewhere convenient for you like the cafeteria?

How will you fight the Space Marines who have weapons that kill you easily? Put your fancy Fed armor on. Plasma Guns will go right through it, Melta Guns will go right through it, flame throwers will cook them alive inside their armor. If they have any flesh showing on their armor at all, an Astartes can hit them. If they don't wear helmets, Space Marines can score head shots quite easily even when firing from the hip.

That's not even bringing up the issue of psykers which the Fed would have no way to combat. Their knowledge of psionics is rudimentery compared to the IoM.

The Fed is outnumbered on insane levels, they're totally surrounded and there are more Space Marines and Imperial Guardsman in their ships than there are Fed crewmen.

Your technology only goes so far.

Every single point here has already been addressed, except for your instance that IoM weaponry would penetrate Federation armor, for which you have AGAIN offered aboslutely no evidence, beyond "because I say so".



So moving away from your insistence that we accept gross assumptions on your part, because you say so, here's what we're left with:




The Federation would destroy IoM fleets from such far distances away, they'd probably never be detected, not could the IoM transport troops onboard their ships, fire back, nor otherwise inflict damage.

Why? Because the IoM has not demonstrated any possibility for effective ranges of even millions of kilometers, let alone dozens of AU.



There's also no reason to believe any method of transporting aboard Federation vessels would meet with success, even if the Federation decided to get close enough for that to even work, because the Federation has spent centuries countering many forms of this technology.



In short, in three posts, you still haven't offered a single means by which the IoM would inflict damage on Federation fleets.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 10:54 AM, said:

And the continuation of the dodging of issues. I'm seeing a pattern here now, it seems that anything that isn't in your line of experience isn't a valid point. Maybe you you should join the Imperium of Man.

I haven't dodged any issue; you've just dodged the rebuttals.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 10:53 AM, said:

I also call to Hugh Fox with the six whispers of Slaanesh to bring fourth additional opinions.

http://foxhugh.wordp...-warhammer-40k/

Wow, a VS analysis that doesn't include a single worthwhile point of comparison.

He basically brings up the numerical advantage of the IoM without once actually explaining how they'd inflict damage to Federation fleets (hmm, just like someone else I know).



He doesn't once get into Trek's absurdly superior ranges, weapon outputs, nor the capability for FTL combat.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Ahh and the VS analysis is discredited because X person doesn't like the out come.

I think I can rest my case on this issue. I think the man who was drawing from technical manuals for his comparison is just a weeee bit more credible than someone who is coming up with make believe fire power curves.

But hey! You don't have to take my word for it.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 11:14 AM.

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

Ahh and the VS analysis is discredited because X person doesn't like the out come.

Actually, that's not what I said, but I guess if you have to resort to strawmanning, then it shows that you aren't going to present any more of a compelling argument than the "because I say so" reasoning we've gotten previously.


Wow, nearly a dozen posts later, and we're still in the same place I outlined in my post earlier:

Catamount, on 24 December 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

And just to sum this up, let's take every advantage from both sides and see what we get:

Here's what lands in favor of each franchise:

Trek:

-Trek technology has weaponry upward of two orders of magnitude more powerful

-Trek has a reliable form of FTL that they can use with ease, at no risk to themselves, while IoM "warp" travel is a shaky proposition to even consider. Entire fleets have been lost just for entering FTL

-Trek ships are advanced, well-engineered vessels, with nearly 360 degrees by 360 degrees weapons coverage of their big guns at all times, and are able to bring nearly 100% of their firepower to bear on any target at any location relative to themselves; IoM ships are largely primitive pre-dreadnought designs, with engineering that would have been considered quaint in World War I.

-Trek has FTL-combat capability

-Trek has sophisticated science and technology, an underlying understanding of the universe that the IoM does not, and as such Trek powers are able to quickly develop counters to new types of threats

-As a subpoint, nothing presented by the IoM shows any likelihood of being a new threat



Here's what we have in the IoM's favor:

-A user insists that the IoM would win, and Trek technology would be ineffective at countering them, because he says so (and with all due respect to the user, that isn't very compelling).

[Catamount]

Miles Tails Prower, on 24 December 2011 - 11:03 AM, said:

someone who is coming up with make believe fire power curves.

Oh, this one I liked, too!


I pull numbers straight from the canons for both universes, and you come up with absolutely no argument against that analysis, but here you are, still insisting it's wrong, yet again, with the reasoning being...


*drum roll*


...


"Because I say so".



Actually, you ARE insisting that we take your word for it, because you continually insist things you've offered no argument for must be accepted as true, your insistence that our power output figures, for which you've offered nary a rebuttal, being wrong, just being yet another case in point.

Edited by Catamount, 24 December 2011 - 11:19 AM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

More recycled rhetoric. More dodging of points. More refusal to address new material.

I continue to rest my case. Unlike certain people I'm not going to briefly scan through universe wiki's to make up skewed fire power curves to support my argument and then cling to them like my life depends on it(which in your case it does).

And here's the summary from Fox so that everyone can read it.

From: http://foxhugh.wordp...-warhammer-40k/

"This scenario assumes that neither side receives help from super races or help from near humans that are not part of the Federation or Imperium. The Imperium has far superior numbers and this advantage alone would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. The Imperium consists of thousands of worlds including hive worlds that have huge populations far greater than any world in the Federation. The Federation consists of 150 planets.
As if this numerical advantage was not enough, the Imperium also has a much wider range of weapons and equipment at its disposal and has a decisive advantage in this area as well. Finally the Imperium has super soldiers, the Space Marines, that have no equivalent in the Federation. The Space Marines are masters of melee combat that are far, far superior to their Federation counterparts. The Space Marines are also master’s of turning war in space into melee combat. The Space Marines know how to board space ships and infiltrate heavily guarded positions. The Space Marines could for example attack Star Fleet Command in San Francisco in a commando raid and destroy the leadership of Star Fleet overnight. The Federation in turn would have little success launching a similar commando operation against Imperium targets that would be defended by Space Marines.
One could create a sub-scenario were the Imperium is invading the Federation and cannot afford to squander forces needed to defend the Imperium home territory and fields a fleet more or less of the same number of ships and men as that of the Federation. Even if numbers were equal, the superior weapons and equipment technology of the Imperium and the superiority of the Space Marines would give the Imperium a decisive advantage. Even in this sub-scenario the Imperium would win."



This debate is resolved. Like I said, I'm going to take the word of someone using the technical manuals for their reference as someone a lot more credible than someone who just invents numbers off of a wiki. Hugh Fox isn't a fool either, he's a college professor, professional writer, and an avid science fiction fan.

http://foxhugh.wordp...about-me/about/

So if you'd like to continue flailing about, or drum up some brand new imaginary numbers be my guest. While you're at it, you ought to try and figure out the Warp. Until then, I will be watching.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 12:18 PM.

[Zakatak]

Star Wars shouldn't be included in any of these "which universe is the most powerful" debates, because of their pitifully soft and fluffy science explanations. Lasers in the movies range between AT-AT beams failing to even phase infantry 1 foot away from point of impact, to vaporizing sizeable asteroids into absolutely nothing. In-depth studies show that Star Destroyers are estimated to output 800,000 megatons of energy per minute, yet TIE Fighters only being able to output 1 kiloton per minute. EU weapons are able to destroy entire solar systems in seconds. Basically, SW lacks any consistency.

So besides that? Star Trek wins, likely, since acceleration (even on the little NX-01) is in the 1000g range and the sensors are mad crazy. Star Gate would be my #2.

Battletech ships have the lowest damage output to my knowledge, besides Battlestar Galactica and those crappy anime shows. Ferro-carbide is good armor, but ships have pitiful acceleration of around 2-8g and I think the most damaging weapon in BTech is the Peacemaker missile, which is around 500kt. Also, no artificial gravity. The most comparable would be Halo, or if you REALLY wanna stretch it, Mass Effect.

Edited by Zakatak, 24 December 2011 - 12:25 PM.

[Miles Tails Prower]

Zakatak, on 24 December 2011 - 12:22 PM, said:

The most comparable would be Halo, or if you REALLY wanna stretch it, Mass Effect.

Oooh that'd be an interesting one.

Battletech, vs Halo(Covenant specifically) vs Mass Effect.

Edited by Miles Tails Prower, 24 December 2011 - 12:26 PM.