1189 replies to this topic

[Strum Wealh]

Catamount, on 02 March 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

Oh, I'm sure there's all sorts of interesting universes from various novels. I'm not familiar with the story, but it sounds interesting. These guys sound pretty darn hyper-advanced, too.

It's a well-written set of novels and a well fleshed-out universe.
I would recommend the novels of the Revelation Space universe (particularly the collection of short stories, Galactic North), as well as the novel House of Suns by the same author.

A word of warning - both are rather "hard" sci-fi written by a former ESA research astronomer.
While actually rather light on the technobabble (concepts like the hypometric weapons and the cryo-arithmetic engines, among others, are reasonably well-explained (as much so as they can be explained, anyway) and explained in accessible but not over-simplified terms), Reynolds' works tend to be high on the focus on general scientific and technical accuracy, so having some scientific or technical background is very helpful.

[Volthorne]

The Tau have the second-best military and naval might in WH40k, second only to the Chaos, with Necrons running a close 3rd.

I say this because the Chaos LITTERALLY corrupt the minds of those around them, they have near-impossible to kill daemons and champions, and all their soldiers and naval ships have mutations in one way or another.

Tau win through sheer firepower volume and tech, god can't save you if you sit in their LoS for more than 3 seconds. They have ion cannons, good bye shields.

The Necrons CANNOT be killed. If you knock them down, they eventually get back up, no matter how many pieces they happen to be in.

WH40k wins my vote.

~~~

On another note, I have the one thing that no one can beat: GUREN LAGANN. They throw mother f**king GALAXIES at each other by the end of the anime. I challenge someone to top that.

Edited by Volthorne, 02 March 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[GDL Rahsan]

Strum Wealh, on 02 March 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

It's a well-written set of novels and a well fleshed-out universe.
I would recommend the novels of the Revelation Space universe (particularly the collection of short stories, Galactic North), as well as the novel House of Suns by the same author.

A word of warning - both are rather "hard" sci-fi written by a former ESA research astronomer.
While actually rather light on the technobabble (concepts like the hypometric weapons and the cryo-arithmetic engines, among others, are reasonably well-explained (as much so as they can be explained, anyway) and explained in accessible but not over-simplified terms), Reynolds' works tend to be high on the focus on general scientific and technical accuracy, so having some scientific or technical background is very helpful.

Interesting, I might read those, I havn't read Hard SCI-FI in sometime and those silly SCI-FI are not the only thing found in the basket you know.


EDIT: As for the post above me listing Chaos and the Tau as first and second in firepower terms is wrong on so many levels which I am not in the mood of explaining right now.

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 10:30 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

GDL Rahsan, on 02 March 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

You know just a question what was the Daleks planning to do after destroying reality?

Hang out in the Void until another set of universes started up, then do it all over again?
And/or they're so xenocidal that the're not terribly concerned with erasing themselves from existence in the process, so long as they go out knowing that they've killed everything else in all of creation?

[GDL Rahsan]

Strum Wealh, on 02 March 2012 - 10:30 PM, said:

Hang out in the Void until another set of universes started up, then do it all over again?
And/or they're so xenocidal that the're not terribly concerned with erasing themselves from existence in the process, so long as they go out knowing that they've killed everything else in all of creation?

Wow, those things are really a bunch of omnicidal maniacs, aren't they?

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 02 March 2012 - 10:35 PM.

[Zakatak]

Volthorne, on 02 March 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

On another note, I have the one thing that no one can beat: GUREN LAGANN. They throw mother f**king GALAXIES at each other by the end of the anime. I challenge someone to top that.

The fastest you could throw a galaxy is just under 300'000km/s. So a game of Spiral Energy Baseball (Pinwheel being the ball, Milky Way being the plate) would take 3 million years... for the first pitch. The end of the universe by the 9th inning. And anime sucks anyway. And no, I'm not talking about "the bad anime". Just anime, period.

All power to flame shields!

Does anybody know what kind of sensors, weapon yields, and acceleration the Enterprise NX can do? I know it has a trio of 500GJ phase cannons and can do 220c, but that's about it. Might be good comparison against the Normandy SR-2, assuming it doesn't have that 1000g+ crap.

Also, regarding my own sci-fi in the works: can titanium bond in 2-dimensional hexes, like graphene? It would help in my explanation of "Graphenium" (layers of graphene and titanene stacked, and coated with diamond vapour disposition).

Edited by Zakatak, 02 March 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[Alexander Leandros]

You forgot Mass effect space battles.

[Zakatak]

Alexander Leandros, on 02 March 2012 - 10:39 PM, said:

You forgot Mass effect space battles.

Mass Effect is actually quite weak in many areas. Accelerations are 150g at the absolute maximum, weapons yields don't exceed 50kt (Sovereign/bigger Reapers aside), sensors are subluminal, shields only block kinetic weapons, and the lasers are only useful as CIWS. Although "hard holograms" are pretty sweet. Props for those. And they have pretty good groundside abilities too, many Alliance soldiers having mildly enhanced strength/vision. Biotics are a big advantage too, if we're talking man vs man here.

Superior to BTech, Battlestar, EVE, and Gundam on that list. A little below 22nd century Trek and Halo.

Edited by Zakatak, 02 March 2012 - 10:49 PM.

[Polymorphyne]

Quote

The Tau have the second-best military and naval might in WH40k, second only to the Chaos, with Necrons running a close 3rd.

No, they do not. Their ships are only capable of short warp hops, so have terrible range, and they have a tiny, insignificant fleet compared to the other factions.

Also, the Tyranid ships of Hive Fleet Gorgon became COMPLETELY IMMUNE to the Ion Weapons of the tau fleet, and were only defeated because the Imperium turned up.

Also, another Tyranid Fleet (Hive Fleet Naga, the second hive fleet to invade the galaxy after Behemoth) which only attacked minor races not present on tabletop, was stated that it would have wiped ou the tau if it had arrived in Tau space instead.

Also, when one small Tyranid fleet seperated from the main bulk of Gorgon to attack a tau colony, a fleet of necron ships emerged from the moon to drive off that tyranid fleet. That small necron fleet then destroyed the Tau colony with absolutely no contest.

The tau only survive because they are small enough and young enough to have not really been noticed so far, and because of the occasional lucky intervention from outside forces. They are the smallest, youngest tabletop playable faction. They have decent tech, but its only enough to defeat small scale imperial crusades and small ork waaaghs without outside help.

Edited by Longsword, 03 March 2012 - 12:16 AM.

[Kartr]

Zakatak, on 02 March 2012 - 10:47 PM, said:

Mass Effect is actually quite weak in many areas. Accelerations are 150g at the absolute maximum, weapons yields don't exceed 50kt (Sovereign/bigger Reapers aside), sensors are subluminal, shields only block kinetic weapons, and the lasers are only useful as CIWS. Although "hard holograms" are pretty sweet. Props for those. And they have pretty good groundside abilities too, many Alliance soldiers having mildly enhanced strength/vision. Biotics are a big advantage too, if we're talking man vs man here.

Superior to BTech, Battlestar, EVE, and Gundam on that list. A little below 22nd century Trek and Halo.

Eh a little below 22nd century Trek for space combat perhaps, but ground combat they'd wipe the floor with Redshirts. I mean you have biotics that can create mini black holes wherever whenever. The rifles fire tiny metallic shavings that are accelerated to the point where they have enough energy to physically stagger body armored soldiers back (still not sold on Trek using personal shields in a war, since they don't seem to issue them, though maybe after all the dumb redshirts are killed the smart ones will use bobbypins and comunicators to make their own. No guarantee they'd work on bullets though) and of course they have full body armor which will hopefully have similar properties to Trek packing crates and wind up being next to invincible to phasers.

[Captain Hat]

Catamount, on 02 March 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

yes, but we're sticking specifically to the original canon in these franchises, as far as I know, NOT EU canon.

If we included EU, many franchises would suddenly be slugging it out with ridiculous dues ex machina plot devices (those that have an EU, anyways). The idea of Shatnerverse ever entering this discussion really does make me shudder

Many companies have an explicit canon policy that dictates what is and is not canon. Paramount, for example, have explicitly stated that the Star Trek EU is NOT canon. Their canon policy is that if and when it appears on screen- THEN it is canon. Not before.

Lucasfilm on the other hand has a policy that the feature films take precedence- and anything that contradicts them is wrong- but that the EU explicitly IS canon, including all of the novels and the plotlines, factions and in-universe items (though not the mechanics) from the games. So as long as an EU source is not in direct conflict with a movie source, it is canon.

This is Lucasfilm policy.

Games Workshop's canon policy is that the fluff pieces are canon, which includes everything published directly by the Black Library or Games Workshop itself- fluff bits in Codexes, novels, rulebooks etc- while the rules themselves are just an abstraction into playable terms that doesn't necessarily represent the universe particularly well. Third-party fluff pieces like Forge World books, RP books and other stuff not directly published by the Black Library is also canon, but where contradicted it is wrong.

Anyone familiar with the basics of this kind of debate should be aware of the canon policy of the franchises they are talking about.

[GDL Rahsan]

Actually Captain as I mentioned earlier the codexes and rule books , and the white dwarf magazine are considered the top of the canon chain after it comes the BL books andn ovels etc

[Captain Hat]

By who? The only rule I ever saw for GW was that "more recent wins" but the closest thing anyone ever got to an official quote on the matter was this, from Marc Gascoigne, who was at the time editor-in-chief of the Black Library:

Quote

(Marc Gascoigne - Publisher @ The Black Library and Black Flame)

Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

so the general rule I've used before is to treat 40K canon like a probability distribution: You get all the sources, add them together and average out the result. Hopefully by going for the middle of the probability distribution you're somewhere closer to the truth than you would be otherwise. It's not an exact science, as I've said.

Edited by Captain Hat, 03 March 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[GDL Rahsan]

What you are reading right now seems to support that fact. But I don't remember any other sources stating that.

[Captain Hat]

Do you have another source that says anything at all?

[GDL Rahsan]

Captain Hat, on 03 March 2012 - 07:15 AM, said:

Do you have another source that says anything at all?

I do remember reading multiple times about this subject but I don't remember any sources about it right now, sorry about that but if you want I can start looking for info about the subject.

Edited by GDL Rahsan, 03 March 2012 - 07:33 AM.

[Catamount]

Captain Hat, on 03 March 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

Lucasfilm on the other hand has a policy that the feature films take precedence- and anything that contradicts them is wrong- but that the EU explicitly IS canon, including all of the novels and the plotlines, factions and in-universe items (though not the mechanics) from the games. So as long as an EU source is not in direct conflict with a movie source, it is canon.

This is Lucasfilm policy.

That's not entirely correct.

Lucas Licensing maintains the canonicity of the EU material, but George Lucas himself maintains that the canon consists of the films, film scripts, movie novelizations, radio plays, and that's it. Hence, LL maintains the EU continuity, but that is not the same continuity as Star Wars™, as per the policy maintained by George Lucas.


This was discussed extensively very early in the thread.

Edited by Catamount, 03 March 2012 - 09:40 AM.

[Captain Hat]

Ultimately, Lucasfilm owns the license as a company, it's not solely GL's property any more: It's the company's canon policy that matters. This has always been the case for disputes of this sort; the franchise is simply too large for any one person to control.

Edited by Captain Hat, 03 March 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[Stripes]

With no disrespect to Star Wars fans around here, but this franchise have probaly worst concept of space battles ever, period. Star Trek follows closely behind, but it is older by 13 years and, at least for me, represent Gold Age of science fiction (even predating my little self by 24 years).
Kickin out of poll all anime technobabble leaves only 4 choices (not includinп StarCraft - game has zero insight in matter of space warfare).

But, on the other note, if you want Real space WarFare - check out David Weber books. Gold Old RMN FearLess (light cruiser) can vaporise anything in the poll from 300K km - with cutted down weaponery (consider him "special" variant of standart warship).

Well, with that one my inner nerd get himself in overload

[Ilithi Dragon]

Stripes, on 03 March 2012 - 01:11 PM, said:

With no disrespect to Star Wars fans around here, but this franchise have probaly worst concept of space battles ever, period. Star Trek follows closely behind, but it is older by 13 years and, at least for me, represent Gold Age of science fiction (even predating my little self by 24 years).
Kickin out of poll all anime technobabble leaves only 4 choices (not includinп StarCraft - game has zero insight in matter of space warfare).

But, on the other note, if you want Real space WarFare - check out David Weber books. Gold Old RMN FearLess (light cruiser) can vaporise anything in the poll from 300K km - with cutted down weaponery (consider him "special" variant of standart warship).

Well, with that one my inner nerd get himself in overload

Gotta love the Honorverse. The Honorverse has some pretty damned impressive weapons ranges, especially late in the series - their late-series missile ranges would make even the Andromeda weapons ranges seem paltry in comparison. And they've got some pretty impressively large ships. That said, they run entirely on fusion power, and maintain yields and endurances and power outputs that are consistent with that. They also have some limitations regarding ship maneuverability that would put them at a serious disadvantage against anything from the Star Trek, Andromeda or Stargate universes, though their ship maneuverability and mobility is still fairly respectable, and the could probably out-maneuver most ships from Star Wars or 40K. Any significant Honorverse power would probably be able to stand toe-to-toe with anything from Halo or Mass Effect or any of the other franchises in that tier, if not dominate them entirely.