Jump to content

Star Wars vs Star Trek vs Battle Tech Space Battles


1189 replies to this topic

Poll: Who is the Ultimate Winner? (700 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will come out on top?

  1. Star Wars (154 votes [22.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 22.00%

  2. Star Trek (118 votes [16.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 16.86%

  3. Star Craft (9 votes [1.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.29%

  4. Battle Star Galactica (26 votes [3.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.71%

  5. Battle Tech (85 votes [12.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.14%

  6. Macross (32 votes [4.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.57%

  7. Gundam (24 votes [3.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 3.43%

  8. WarHammer40k (152 votes [21.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.71%

  9. Star Gate (12 votes [1.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.71%

  10. EveOnline (53 votes [7.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.57%

  11. Battleship Yamato (10 votes [1.43%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.43%

  12. Legend of Galactic Heros (7 votes [1.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.00%

  13. Halo (18 votes [2.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 2.57%

Convert to Best space ship space battles or keep current format? Choices submissions Extended to 2/11/12

  1. Convert to only space ship naval battles, ignoring civ other traits. (116 votes [25.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.05%

  2. Keep current format, full universe as deciding factor. (347 votes [74.95%])

    Percentage of vote: 74.95%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#321 Tarvitz

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 37 posts

Posted 09 January 2012 - 05:14 PM

View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

That was the entirety of everything I said on the subject of 40k in 12 pages? Really?

Oh my... ^_^


It might as well be considering it best displays the mentality you apparently have towards other franchises besides Trek.

Once you post something like that it doesn't matter what other contributions, if they can be called that, you previously made towards threads such as this.

Edited by Tarvitz, 09 January 2012 - 06:00 PM.


#322 Zakatak

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,673 posts
  • LocationCanadastan

Posted 09 January 2012 - 05:22 PM

View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

Hmm, that's an interesting notion, Zakatak. I like the notion of energy storage dictating how long you can fight.


How long does a ship-to-ship fight typically last? The reason I ask is because the reactor output could partly extend a fight, not by much, but if it's, say, a ten minute fight the ship is involved, it would put out an extra 4TJ of energy (better than 10% longer fighting, which isn't insignificant).


Also, just how effective are the defenses? How armored is the ship?


Also, how fast do the kinetic and missile-based weaponry travel?


The AIM-146 antimatter missiles (or Slammers) have a burn time of 36 seconds. They accelerate at 165g, so 58km/s. Of course, that implies the missile being fired in a straight line at maximum thrust, which may not always be the case. The mass of each missile is 200kg if you want to factor kinetic energy on impact.

The coilcannon can be set between as little as 500MJ (for warning shots/non-critical hits) all the way up to 2TJ, which it would be in a kill-or-be-killed situation. At the max setting, the 25kg slug moves at 400km/s. Range really comes down to how the enemy is maneouvring and at what speed. Slow, large capital ships at cruise? 6000km. Destroyers and frigates? 1500km. Fighter craft? 150km.

Defenses? I hadn't thought this part over really. I suppose 300GJ would be acceptable for the antimagnets (which would slow down a slug of equal energy down enough to either dodge it or make it a non-critical blow). Now that I think about it, the EM Pulse is a retarded idea since that could knock the antimatter out of containment. Assuming 6 shots per second from the trio of lasers with 33% accuracy, it could deal with a volley of 2 missiles per second assuming the enemy missiles are within firing arc.

Armor? I wanted combat within this universe to be less about absorbing damage and more about not getting hit. Although I intend it to be enough to survive a 10km/s atmospheric re-entry, debris at combat speed (2km/s sounds about right for combat), and at least a few laser impacts.

Edited by Zakatak, 09 January 2012 - 05:28 PM.


#323 Jack Gammel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • LocationZiliang

Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:00 PM

View PostGustaf Brackman, on 09 January 2012 - 10:19 AM, said:

Grayson's response pretty much answers this whole argument about Star Trek and WH40K especially since Games Workshop or any other canon sites never gave technical info about most weaponary and technology in the WH40K universe so it's just guessing how much they can do and a comparison will never work like that.


I essentially agree with this. 40k and Star Trek are coming at a narrative with completely different goals in mind. 40k is simply a space opera in the same vein as Star Wars, Firefly, and Dune. The focus isn't on the tech, and most of the tech canon available was written in the 80's/90's by guys who had no real scientific background but knew that words like "fusion" and "plasma" were cool. Star Trek tries to be more grounded in "real science," even though Star Trek science can only be, at best, the result of educated guesses based on what we do know about physics (guesses often made by very intelligent people who know a lot about real science). This does not make any of these franchises intrinsically superior to the other, nor does it make one a "real" scifi franchise and the others somehow fake.

However, I'd like to know where the "steam powered baneblade" comes from? Seriously. I have never heard about this. I've been into 40k for close to a decade, and I'm pretty familiar with 40k lore. My best friend has been a 40k fan for close to 20 years and he's never heard of a steam-powered IG tank. The Imperial Guard might have lower tech levels than Star Trek, but steam powered tanks are something new to me. That said, would a steam powered Baneblade be a bad thing? It would be a super-heavy tank (for reference the Abrams MBT is 60+tons and the Baneblade is much bigger), and it somehow runs on steam? I have to admit I would be a little impressed by that (considering its not running on rails or anything).

Also, pulling a comparison between the 40k fluff and the TT game, insofar as saying that something like space marine armor can't be that great because its armor save can be beaten by so many weapons ingame isn't fair. The TT game has to exist within a reasonable framework with roughly balanced rules. There was a special space marine list released a while back in Chapter Approved that tried to create a fluffy space marine list. As far as I can tell the list is no longer online, but the point is that with that list a space marine player would only a take around 10-20 space marines at approx. 2000 point games, and they could win. It's just one of the weaknesses of the franchise. Star Trek technobabbles its way out of almost every problem, the Force is apparently caused by midichloreans, and in 40k the fluff is often nerfed in the game rules out of necessity (and because the writers sometimes get carried away...). It's just the way it is.

Sorry, just wanted to point this out. Not looking to start some debate. Am actually tickled at the thought of a steampunk Baneblade (the IG DO have space mongols with explosive spears after all...)

Edited by Jack Gammel, 09 January 2012 - 06:19 PM.


#324 Catamount

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • LIEUTENANT, JUNIOR GRADE
  • 3,305 posts
  • LocationBoone, NC

Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:02 PM

I see where you're going there, Zakatak; there's just one problem I see, thus far.

Those 2TJ rail guns would only be effective compared to the ~105PJ missiles if they had fire rates like, say, Tauri railguns in Stargate, but that would drain the power reserves of the ship in a fraction of a second.


If you can resolve that, like I said, it's interesting having a ship with such a finite power supply. That would make the battle dynamic really interesting.

Edited by Catamount, 09 January 2012 - 06:03 PM.


#325 Zakatak

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,673 posts
  • LocationCanadastan

Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:34 PM

View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

I see where you're going there, Zakatak; there's just one problem I see, thus far.

Those 2TJ rail guns would only be effective compared to the ~105PJ missiles if they had fire rates like, say, Tauri railguns in Stargate, but that would drain the power reserves of the ship in a fraction of a second.


If you can resolve that, like I said, it's interesting having a ship with such a finite power supply. That would make the battle dynamic really interesting.


Actually, that "imbalance" was planned in the story. The standard AIM-146 is a 350t weapon (comparable to the coilcannon). That was what it was intended to use.

The ship was built on the moon Titan in secret as a collaboration between USA and the Russian. They are in a war against China and Siberia (a now independant country). The ship was to be transferred to Luna (Earths moon) to defend Helium-3 Refineries during the Christmas Holidays (in which an temporary armistice takes place). The antimatter missiles were designed to counteract shielding technology that the Chinese were supposedly working on. Of course, sending a military transport full of antimatter signatures may look bad, so they load them into the ships missile tubes to make a single trip.

However, the crew, for reasons I will not mention, accidently get wound up in another galaxy who have no way to get home (this is before FTL travel was ever possible). Adding to the fun, the crew who were originally to commandeer the vessel were stationed on Luna, and the ones onboard were given basic training, and were simply instructed to go from A to B and nothing more. And now an incompetent crew with 600 megatons of munitions is inside an alien galaxy.

Hey, how about a name for this thing ship? I hate calling it "ship". I can't figure one out.

Edited by Zakatak, 09 January 2012 - 06:43 PM.


#326 Jack Gammel

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 205 posts
  • LocationZiliang

Posted 09 January 2012 - 06:41 PM

I'm actually interested: how does Siberia exist as a seperate soveriegn entity? I assume this is taking place in the relatively near future? How has nuclear holocaust been averted in what looks like WWIII?

How about the "Dominus Astra?" lol

Edited by Jack Gammel, 09 January 2012 - 06:49 PM.


#327 Catamount

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • LIEUTENANT, JUNIOR GRADE
  • 3,305 posts
  • LocationBoone, NC

Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:13 PM

Agreed, the idea is interesting.

Unfortunately, I can't think of anything as far as names go tonight, but I'm sure you'll get some good suggestions here before long (I mean, it's a forum of hundreds of scifi geeks; you've come to the right place ^_^)

#328 Zakatak

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 1,673 posts
  • LocationCanadastan

Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:29 PM

It's a interesting concept.

You wash up on the shore of an unknown country, with no idea what happened, how you got there. You have nothing but your shoes and the clothes on your back. Nobody is your ethnicity, you don't have any money or friends or connections, you can't understand anyone or their traditions. What do you do?

Anyway. Names for the ship anyone? I figured since every sci-fi to date uses naval terms (keel, port, starboard, torpedo) I would go for a more USAF vibe like Stargate.

Edited by Zakatak, 09 January 2012 - 07:30 PM.


#329 Sam Slade

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • FP Veteran - Beta 1
  • 1,370 posts
  • LocationMega city 1

Posted 09 January 2012 - 07:46 PM

You forgot to add Evangelion... "hmm... a Death Star you say"...*destroys universe*

#330 Strum Wealh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Raider
  • The Raider
  • 5,025 posts
  • LocationPittsburgh, PA

Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:04 PM

View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

Strum Wealth, it sounds like Andromeda weapon outputs are comparable to Trek weapon outputs. Stargate weapon outputs are a little harder to judge accurately in a lot of cases (though they've got some pretty ordinance in fairly small packages), but they're probably comparable as well.


In terms of range, you'll note that the Memory-Alpha page you linked notes Voyager's torpedo range to be 8 million kilometers. I'm assuming either those were different warheads than what was mentioned in The Wounded (onboard the Pheonix, or the Enterprise? MA should specify that :( ), or because the stated range in The Wounded had some other circumstance coming into play.

Either way, even at the higher figure of 8 million kilometers for Voyager's 2370s torpedoes, they're still outranged by Andromeda's offensive armaments, since even at 8 light minutes, you'd be looking at 144 million kilometers, which outclasses any non-FTL combat ranges for Trek (something we'll have to get to later).


I want back and looked - I did indeed miss the longer range reference, that's my fault.

(Also, it's "Wealh" with no "t"; it's an old Celtic(/Proto-Germanic) word meaning "foreigner" and one of the etymoogical roots of my surname. :o)

Also, for ST yields, we have:

Quote

According to the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual, 25 isotons is the maximum theoretical yield of a matter-antimatter reaction in photon torpedoes and that quantum torpedoes have at least twice the yield at 50+ isotons. (pg. 85) These figures are not compatible with the canonical statement in "Scorpion, Part II" of 200 isotons as the yield of a class-6 photon torpedo warhead.

-----

In Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual a figure of 1,5kg of antimatter is given as the maximum warhead material of a photon torpedo. (pg. 129) Using standard physics calculations a direct 1:1 explosion would equal to about 64.4 megatons. Warhead materials are however premixed to achieves the level of destructive force of an antimatter pod rupture containing 100 cubic meters of antideuterium. (pg. 69) Antimatter is stored as liquid or slush on starships. (pg. 68) Density of mere liquid antideuterium is around 160 kg per cubic meter. According to this comparison the high annihilation rate energy release would be comparable to about 690 gigatons. Furthermore it is not clear if the 1,5 kg should be compared to the 200 isoton figure given in "Scorpion, Part II" on-screen, or the 25 isoton figure given in the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Technical Manual.

So, the yield for ST weapons is given only in "isotons", rather than in a standard unit? :huh:
What kind of energies are we talking about - megaton range or gigaton range?

Also, I too did some thinking on FTL combat - something I'll address later in this post...


View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

One question you could perhaps answer is how fast these weapons can be thrown out. Trek has shown the ability to toss out photon torpedoes at an impressive rate (several per second, apparently with decent sustainability on the largest ships if TNG The Survivors is any indication). Also, I believe Trek has been uprating some of their torpedoes considerably since the 64mt warheads of early TNG. Ilithi knows more about the particulars than I, but on the largest warheads, it's a 5-10 fold increase iirc (like I said, Ilithi has specifics, so he can chime in later), though I'm not sure how to count those, because 64mt may still be what you'd see as standard armament largely, and even if standard armaments were uprated, and even if there were torpedoes out with half an order of magnitude more power, I doubt those would become standard armament. It gets fuzzy around Voyager, because ships start packing multiple ordinance types (just for photorps), and it's not clear what all the ups and downs of each is, nor how many of each a ship typically carries (Voyager's torpedo compliment, at launch, was a piddling 39, iirc).



Phasers are harder to exactly pin, partly because a lot of their effective yield seems to be the nadion disruption effect, but it's probably a safe assumption that they're more or less as effective as the torpedoes of the ship firing them. Afterall, if phasers are orders of magnitude better than torpedoes, then why bother to stock torpedoes, and if the reverse were true, why bother to stock phasers? ^_^ (that's part of why the 5.1MW/emitter number is so absurd, regardless of the potential partial-canonicity of the TMs). Phaser strength differs greatly depending on the length of the array, and seems to vary with the size of the sequential discharge riding over the array (but SDE is Ilithi's doing, so I'll let him explain why we've long held that to be true), but since array size tends to vary with torpedo loadout anyways, again, I'd assume you're looking at rough parity of effective yield between a ship's best spray of torpedoes, and best phaser shot, so the ED, even with 64mt/270PJ warheads, should at least be capable of something in the ballpark of 640mt/2.7EJ outputs from her main dorsal array.



Knowing rate of fire on these weapons also helps us determine how long a Trek ship would have to endure shots before being able to close range.


I included what information I could find regarding the ROF for the Andromeda's various weapon types in my previous post:
"I don't know the actual ROF of the AP cannons, but the graphic from the wiki shows several individual bolts in close proximity, so we can not-unreasonably assume that it is fairly high.
XMCs have 12 AP cannons.

Likewise, I do not know the official ROF for the point-defense lasers (35-50 MW range (high end for an XMC), range of 4 light minutes), but the graphic from the wiki shows that it is fairly high.
XMCs have 12 PDLs.

The ELS have a stated ROF of 8 missiles per second, and the XMCs have 40 ELS launchers - a total ROF of 19,200 missiles per minute."

So, unfortunately, I do not know the canon ROF for either of the XMC energy weapons (though, from the linked gif, I would place the ROF of the PDLs at around 8-10 salvos per second).
We do know, however, that an XMC can launch a lot of missiles very quickly...


View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:


Sensors definitely seem to fall on the side of Andromeda in terms of resolution, but what about range? Trek sensors have effective ship-to-ship ranges in the low lightyear range.


Unfortunately, the only canon number I've got readily available is the one regarding the sensor resolution.

Also, we know that the range is short enough that the Andromeda can be followed by another ship in real-space (the Balance of Judgement; see "Star-Crossed") as well as stealthily follow another ship in real-space (the Eureka Maru; see "Soon the Nearing Vortex").

However, I would think it not unreasonable that the sensor range (not including use of sensor drones or communications with other ships) is at least equal to the maximum range of the maximum weapons range - approximately 8-10 light minutes.
I would also expect the sensors to have a very rapid "refresh rate"; this becomes another important factor in a moment... :)

As such, I would concede that ST likely has the advantage in overall sensor range... at least, in real-space.

Which leads to the question: how good are Federation sensors across dimensions?
That is, ships in warp are still in real-space (as opposed to a side dimension, a "true hyperspace"), and thus could be detected with relative ease (by looking for pockets of distorted space).
By contrast, slipstream is such a side-dimension ("Slipstream is an extension of our reality, an additional dimension that's integrally intertwined with our own."), and a slipstream-capable ship would need to be able to see both slipstream and real-space (to avoid opening an exiting slip-point inside of a star, for example), necessitating both cross-dimension scanning and a rapid refresh rate on sensor data.
So, in theory a High Guard ship could see a Federation ship coming, even in warp (just in case the Federation ship in question were going to try something like the Picard Maneuver), as well as target and track said Federation ship from slipstream (assuming it's in range, of course).
But, would a Federation ship be able to see/track a High Guard ship while it's in slipstream, or would it have to wait for said High Guard ship to exit slipstream (and thus pick up the exit slip-point or the ship itself)? If not, would Federation ships have to worry about High Guard ships executing their own variant of the Picard Maneuver? :ph34r:


View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

I would note that in DS9 The Die is Cast, a group of 20 ships made 30% of the crust of a planet disappear in a single volley, so that's about in line with what Trek can do, only it wouldn't just depopulate the planet, it would completely melt the crust (or vaporize? It's not clear).



I was emphasizing depopulation of a planet to differentiate "planetary depopulation" {orbital bombardment, to the point of a.) eliminating nearly all lifeforms on the planet in question as a direct result of the bombardment itself rather than its after-effects and b.) severely compromising or outright destroying the biosphere, such that anything not killed by the bombardment would find it very difficult to survive for very long thereafter} from "planetary destruction" (compromising the physical integrity of a planet to the point where it can no longer maintain hydrostatic equilibrium).

It apparently takes a single volley from 20 Federation ships to devastate and (most likely) depopulate (but not destroy) a planet.
Did all 20 ships have to fire at one point, or was their fire spread (more-or-less evenly) across the planet's surface? How big was this planet?
Will 20 volleys from a single Federation ship have the same effect? And how long would it take for a single Federation ship to deliver 20 volleys from the necessary weapon systems?

By contrast, a single XMC - one High Guard ship - seeking to completely depopulate a presumably Earth-sized planet can do so in two minutes with its normal offensive armament...


View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

My overall impression so far here is that, just on range advantage, a single Trek ship, even a capital ship, would have trouble destroying on of these Andromeda vessels. They seem at least comparable in firepower, but the Andromeda ship would be able to hit from further away. A few trek ships, on the other hand, would probably be a different story.


I would think that that depends on the actual numerical disparity - a 5-on-1 advantage probably wouldn't make that much of a difference, while 50-on-1 most likely would...


View PostCatamount, on 09 January 2012 - 09:11 AM, said:

From the sound of it, there aren't more than a handful of Glorious Heritage class ships left, which would present a problem against a fleet of 10k-30k ships (likely towards the higher end), ignoring, of course, Federation allies, but what about other ships? The Systems Commonwealth seems pretty darned big, so looking past a handful of capital ships, what would their mainstay ship look like? How many do they have?


Hence my focus on the pre-Fall High Guard: for most of the series (set ~300 years after the fall of the Commonwealth), the Andromeda herself effectively is the High Guard fleet, and I'm quite certain that, in the vast majority of instances, one ship - even one as formidable as the Andromeda Ascendant - cannot expect to take on all of Starfleet and emerge victorious.

As for the Commonwealth's "mainstay ships", I assume you mean their most common combat-capable ship? That would seem to be the Righteous Fist of Heaven class "Deep Stand-off Attack Ship I" (together with the Pride of Kaldera class "Group Defense Frigate").
The XMCs and the Siege Perilous class "Deep Stand-off Attack Ship II" (the successor to the RFoH class) were relatively new designs, and so would not have been too numerous.

What are the Starfleet equivalents for each of the above named ship types?

For overall numbers, it is said, "At the height of its power, the High Guard had over 500,000 ships ranging and billions of soldiers and officers."
By contrast:

Quote


Regarding the quantity of starships Starfleet had in use in the late 2370s, Moore commented, "I wouldn't be surprised if Starfleet had 30,000 ships or so." (AOL chat, 1997) This was based on reasoning that the USS Hood has a registry of NCC-42296 while the USS Voyager is NCC-74656.

During Operation Return, Starfleet attempted to prevent the Dominion from bringing down the minefield, which would have allowed 2800 ships to come through the wormhole, which would allow for a Dominion total victory. Meaning that since, at that time of the war, the forces of both sides were about equal, the true size of the Dominion forces was much larger than Starfleet.

Doctor Zimmerman claimed that there were 675 EMH Mark I instances active in Starfleet before they were taken off duty during the Dominion War. (VOY: "Life Line")

Edited by Strum Wealh, 09 January 2012 - 10:06 PM.


#331 Strum Wealh

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The Raider
  • The Raider
  • 5,025 posts
  • LocationPittsburgh, PA

Posted 09 January 2012 - 10:26 PM

View PostSam Slade, on 09 January 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

You forgot to add Evangelion... "hmm... a Death Star you say"...*destroys universe*


Except it didn't "destroy the universe".

The Human Instrumentality Project

Quote


The project consists in uniting humanity as one, by merging all human souls and minds into one Hyper-Being, thus ending all wars, individual struggles and social problems of humanity, as caused by the existence of multiple individual minds.

From the scientific point Seele views humanity as having reached an evolutionary dead end, so Seele seeks to bring about Instrumentality and unite all humans into one hyper-being, thus passing to the next transition stage of humanity.
From the social point Seele views humanity as a violent and conflituous race, bounded in an eternal conflict between individual interests and values. Then by accomplishing the Instrumentality they expect to create a peaceful world, since the union of mankind will cease the individual and social problems.

From the ideological point Seele views mankind as the false successors of Earth, cursed by God, since the Seed of Lilith (the progenitor of humanity) arrived on Earth after Adam (the progenitor of the angels), causing the Seed of Adam to inactivate, making the Breed of Lilith (humanity) take place of Adam's breed, and prosper the Earth. Seele plans to merge Humanity with Lilith and Adam, thus creating a real God.


The Third Impact

Quote

The Third Impact occurred in The End of Evangelion and almost achieved Human Instrumentality. It all started when Unit 01 was activated because Rei Ayanami (also the vessel for Lilith's soul) transformed into the Angel form of Lilith, and used Unit 01 as a catalyst. Shinji Ikari was inside of the EVA, as the Mass Production EVA units appeared and formed a Tree of Sephiroth. Soon afterward Evangelion Unit 01 became the Tree of life. The process of Instrumentality began, and Rei Ayanami and Kaworu Nagisa appeared before Shinji, questioning him about what he truly wanted in life. Shinji finally decided that an individual life was superior to living a life as LCL, and soon Unit 01 came out of Lilith's eye. Afterward, Lilith started to fall apart and died. Unit 01 used the Lance of Longinus and destoyed the lance of longinus replicas. The Third Impact ended.


Also:

Quote

As a result of Third Impact, at the conclusion of "The End of Evangelion", Unit 01 is left floating adrift in space, fossilized and still containing the soul of Yui Ikari, where it will outlast the sun and moon, as an eternal testament that the human race existed.



Though, "Space Runaway Ideon" (by none other than the legendary Yoshiyuki "Kill 'Em All" Tomino), on the other hand... ^_^

#332 GaussDragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,183 posts
  • LocationToronto

Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:35 PM

View PostGrayson Pryde, on 09 January 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:


Posted Image



I see your Imperium fishing trawler, and raise you a Voth City Ship. Here's the Voyager just casually sitting inside its roomy hull.
Posted Image

Judging by the scaling (which I'm sure is incorrect as hell) but taking that comparison photo above, then putting the voyager within the Voth City Ship's hull, it's pretty evident the thing is ******* massive. It's also a good deal more advanced, I'm sure. http://en.memory-alp.../Voth_city_ship

Edited by GaussDragon, 09 January 2012 - 11:39 PM.


#333 Ilithi Dragon

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Legendary Founder
  • Legendary Founder
  • 475 posts
  • Facebook: Link
  • LocationWazan

Posted 09 January 2012 - 11:48 PM

YAAAAAY MEGAPOST!

View PostStrum Wealh, on 08 January 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

Perhaps we could get the same information, condensed to the same degree in a single post, for the equivalent Federation and Imperium equipment?


So I read this post before work but didn't have any kind of time to to any response, but I did jot stuff down while at I was at work, and here's the products of my labor in-between sales calls (plus some polishing, etc.):

All of this is going as of late TNG/DS9/VOY, or the period between 2370 and 2380. This is the latest and most advanced that Trek has, to date (excluding the last 'reboot' movie). I will include brief adendums/overviews of the previous eras at the end (if I remember to do so by the time I'm done writing all of this (and yes, I included this sentence to try and remind myself to do so when I skim for errors)).

A quick note for general reference for those not intimately familiar with kilo- through yotta- orders of magnitude, Watts and Joules, because it's handy and fun:

1 Watt = 1 Joule per second (Joules are energy, Watts are power (energy over time))

1 KiloJoule (KJ) = 1,000 Joules (J) (typical modern bullet has a kinetic energy of several hundred J to a few KJ)
1 MegaJoule (MJ) = 1,000,000 Joules (the latest "silver bullet" M829A3 APFSDS kinetic impactor round fired by the M256 main gun of an M1 tank has a kinetic energy of ~30 MJ)
1 GigaJoule (GJ) = 1,000,000,000 Joules (1 metric ton of TNT detonates with ~4.184 GJ of energy)
1 TeraJoule (TJ) = 1,000,000,000,000 Joules (the 15 Kiloton Little Boy nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima detonated with ~63 TJ of energy)
1 PetaJoule (PJ) = 1,000,000,000,000,000 Joules (the 50 Megaton Tsar Bomba detonated with ~209 PJ of energy)
1 ExaJoule (EJ) = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules (the total global nuclear arsenal has a total yield of ~5,000 megatons, or 5 gigatons, and would detonate with ~21 ExaJoules of energy)
1 ZetaJoule (ZJ) = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules (the Chicxulub impact 65 million years ago that caused a mass extinction event and ended the reign of the dinosaurs is estimated at 96 million megatons (96 teratons), or ~402 ZetaJoules)
1 YottaJoule (YJ) = 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 Joules (the Sun puts out ~380 YottaJoules per second)




Power Generation:
Star Trek uses a variety of power generation methods, but the primary power generation methods, and those used by the primary power compared here (the Federation), are Fusion and Matter/Anti-Matter reactors. Other powers use artificial singularities (Romulans and some Delta quad powers) to achieve power outputs comparable to M/AM reactors, and the Borg use some sort of matter-to-energy converter that is basically the Mr. Fusion verson of a M/AM reactor, but overall power generation tends to fall in line with fusion and M/AM reactors, and more or less does the same thing as a M/AM reactor by different means (excluding some rare/one-off super entities). It is not entirely clear whether the Federation is primarily M/AM or Fusion powered, as they may just use M/AM as an energy storage medium for rapid/high-yield releases of energy with Fusion being their primary power source, but the apparent prevalence of anti-matter and M/AM tech, and the ability for some large ships like the Galaxy class to generate their own anti-matter, suggests that the Federation and other contempory powers are fully capable of being purely M/AM-powered civilizations, but use a mix of M/AM and Fusion because Fusion power is safer and less complex (no extremely volatile and hard-to-contain fuels), and more than meets most power generaiton needs (the average person, even with 24th Century-level technology, would not need more than a small-sized fusion reactor in their basement to generate far beyond their day-to-day energy needs).

But for our purposes, regardless of whether the Federation is a Fusion-powered civilization that uses M/AM for energy storage and high-output needs or if the federation is a M/AM-powered civilization that uses Fusion to meet their low-powered needs, the primary power generation in ships and significant stations in Trek comes from M/AM reactors or the equivalent thereof. They supplement this with a large number of fusion reactors (especially on the bigger ships), to meet lower-end power requirements that don't require the full output of the M/AM reactor because deuterium is everywhere and anti-matter isn't, but their primary power source is M/AM reactions. Very efficient M/AM reactions, near-100% per Geordi's dialogue regarding his competition with the CEO on the USS Intrepid (and even beyond what is currently possible today if we could somehow get large quantities of anti-matter, because by late-TNG they seem to be harnessing even most of the power from neutrinos released in the reaction, which account for about half the energy released in M/AM and fusion reactions), so their power generation levels are basically E=mc^2, which you can't get better than without going into some whacky zero-point energy system or something (which the Federation is also experimenting in, see Quantum Torpedoes noted later on).

This is actually a huge part of why Catamount and I have maintained that Trek ships (at least by late-TNG era) are superior to most other franchises' ships, because unless you go into some kind of zero-point energy type system or some really exotic matter that doesn't exist in modern science, where you're drawing power from nothing or a different universe or some such, you just aren't going to get much more energy generation than what the Federation and its contemporaries can achieve, and most other franchises (with notable exceptions like EVE and Stargate, which use M/AM and assorted exotic materials and zero-point energy systems, respectively) are based around fusion power, which generates two whole orders of magnitude less power (and even more so when you factor in the amount of energy lost to neutrinos that late-era Trek reactors are able to harness). There are very few ways to get equal, let alone more energetic power sources than what Trek has been using as its primary power source since before the Federation was created, beyond scaling up the same power generation sources that Trek uses.

Now, it is possible to get more total energy generation than what Trek puts out, if you just build something big enough, but then you're talking about at least 100 times the resource expenditure (and probably more considering efficiency problems in scaling up that big) just to match what Trek (and franchises with comparable power sources) can do with any given amount of resources.


As for specific figures of Trek power generation, Trek reactor outputs are at least in the low PetaWatt range, and probably in the mid-PetaWatt range in outputs for the bigger conventional ships (with some possibly reaching into the high-PetaWatt to low-ExaWatt ranges for peak output). We do have one or two examples implying lower power generation figures, most notably in TNG "The Masterpiece Society" when a TeraWatt-range transmitter on the planet was required to punch through the interference surrounding the planet and Riker noted that that was more power than the entire ship could generate, but this is most likely a reference to the ship's communications array, not the total power generation system, as it contradicts with a number of other stated and implied energy levels, and the E-D shortly thereafter beams a person down through the interference, directly implying that they could generate at least TeraWatt-level energies through the transporter emitters.

The majority of the power figures stated and implied point to low- to mid-PetaWatt level power generation capabilities for typical starships. First of all, Trek warheads are well into the megaton range (as elaborated on later), and they throw them around like candy, so Trek shield systems would be required to put out energy levels at least in the low PetaJoule range to be able to shrug off multiple sequential hits as observed on numerous occasions, not to mention the energy required to power phasers capable of competing with photon torpedo yields, as well as power every other system on the ship simultaneously.

Second, in VOY "Revulsion" we hear that there are 5 PetaWatts of energy (stated as five million gigawatts) flowing through an EPS conduit. This conduit is running through a cargo bay, does not appear to be of a particularly huge size (compared to the EPS taps coming straight off the warp core), the ship was not at any particular state of alert or high energy output (they were not at warp), and and the conduit was open and being worked on at the time (LOL OSHA standards).

Then, in TNG "True Q", Data states that the Enterprise-D's main reactor was outputing "12.75 billion gigawatts per-" before being cut off by the sudden appearance of Q. That's 12,750 PetaWatts, or 12.75 ExaWatts, while the ship was idling in orbit around a planet. Now, the rest of Data's line per the script is "(per) second," which is a somewhat nonsensical statement, because Data would have basically said that the reactor was producing 12.75 ExaJoules per second per second (an accelerating output curve...). Even if we disregard this as a flub in the script that transposed Watts and Joules (an easy enough mistake, just ask Catamount } ; = 8 P ), this energy output is still somewhat unrealistic, since it would require a mass roughly equivalent to half of Homer Simpson sqeezing through both the upper and lower tubes into the central reactor each second, and is well beyond the peak reactor output requirements for the other energy levels observed and implied, let alone the output levels required for, and if that's the fuel consumption rate at idle, the E-D would burn through her fuel stores insanely quickly at high output.

A more likely explanation is that Data's output figure does not actually refer to the sustained output of the reactor, but rather the reaction rate for each 'pulse' of fuel we see flowing down the tubes. Each pulse of fuel reacts at a rate that produces 12.75 ExaWatts of power, but the reaction lasts for considerably less than a second, and/or occurs at a frequency considerably greater than one second. This explanation would prevent us from using Data's figure as a direct energy output, but it does that at least the peak sustained energy outputs would be near that range.

Either way, low- to mid-PetaJoule range outputs for Trek reactors (depending on ship size) appear to be the norm.


Weapons Yield:
Trek weapons yield is typically in the low- to high-PetaJoule range (with the weakest conventional weapons dropping into the very high TeraJoule range and the strongest conventional weapons crossing into the very low ExaJoule range). By the 2360s, the standard Federation photon torpedo had a standard yield of 1 kg of matter and 1 kg of anti-matter, or an explosive yield of ~42 megatons / 176 PJ, and a maximum yield of 1.5 kg of matter and 1.5 kg of anti-matter (~64 megatons / 268 PJ). By late-TNG / DS9, the standard torpedo had been replaced by a new design with a new standard yield of 1.5 kg of matter and anti-matter, bringing the standard yield up to the previous maximum yield of ~64 megatons / 268 PJ, with a maximum theoretical yield of ~500 megatons / 2,092 PJ. (This is per the TNG and DS9 technical manuals, and the Encyclopedias, though I am going by memory on which reference books note the torpedo upgrade in late-TNG/early-DS9, and can't remember off hand if it's the DS9:TM, one of the Encyclopedias, or both that mention the photorp upgrade, though I'm pretty sure it was in the DS9:TM).

Phasers and disruptors have roughly comparable energy yields, varying from notably weaker to roughly equal to significantly stronger than the standard photon torpedo yield, depending on the particular ship and weapon emplacement. Now, phasers and disruptors are funny weapons in that they are not purely Direct-Energy-Transfer (DET) weapons like conventional lasers and charged particles weapons. They do have a DET effect, and this is their primary effect at lower energy levels, but their most significant effect at ship-to-ship energy levels actually comes from the Nuclear Disruption Force (NDF) effect induced by the exotic nadion particles in phasers and disruptors. This is a partially-sustained chain reaction effect that literally disrupts the strong and weak nuclear forces bonding atoms and their constituent particles together. It literally disrupts matter at the sub-atomic level, acting in many ways like a beam of anti-matter particles, though the effect is both worsened by the partially-sustained chain reaction induced and lessened by the fact that the majority of the matter and energy effected are phased out of sync. This is the description of how phasers (and disruptors, which are more or less the same thing just generated in a different way with slightly different specific effects) work on their targets per the TNG:TM, and this is consistent with their observed operations from TOS through VOY (ENT is not entirely consistent, but mostly because they don't go through the full range of capabilities, which can be chalked up to the 'phase pistols' being early phaser weaponry not yet fully developed).

Calculations based on vaporization observed in the E-D's opening shots against the Borg Cube in TNG "Q Who?" put the raw energy output of a Galaxy class' main phasers easily into the low/mid-PetaJoule range (see this post and this post on the Unofficial Star Trek Legacy Forums (the surviving community from the old Bethsoft Star Trek forums) for the math and methodology behind that (and feel free to read the whole thread if you've got some time to kill)), or ~156 PJ if we assume an individual emitter output of 510 TJ (taking the TNG:TM single-emitter output figure and up-scaling it to coincide with observed energy outputs, which fits reasonably well into the range calculated in the previously linked posts) with the actual post-NDF effective yield against the non-adapted hull of a Borg vessel being ~205,140 PJ, or ~205 EJ to keep with round figures. That is against the hull of a vessel not specifically adapted to Federation phasers, and probably not at full alert status, but that would have had at least some resistance and adaptation to general phaser/disruptor NDF effects. Against materials not at all resistant to or hardened against the NDF effect, as noted in the second linked post, the effect could easily be magnified by a considerably higher factor. As noted in the second post, SIF and material hardening against phaser NDF effects likely reduce the magnified yield modifier down to something in the 2-10 times range (with 10 being the more likely figure, given observed performance of phasers/disruptors vs photon torpedoes). Based on calculations made earlier in the thread linked above, the maximum phaser bank reserves of a Galaxy class starship's main ventral array are ~600 PJ, and the main dorsal array is ~16% larger, and so has an estimated phaser bank reserve of ~700 PJ (rounded up from 696 to stick with round numbers for approximate values). That means that the maximum theoretical output in a single shot simultaneously from both main arrays firing in raw energy is 1300 PJ, plus NDF effect modifier, though the largest single shot observed from the E-D was ~300 PJ of raw energy (TNG "Rascals" - and technically also TNG "Yesterday's Enterprise", since the scene was a re-use of VFX).

So, against other Trek ships adapted to resist their specific NDF effects, the main phasers of a Galaxy class starship (Starfleet's premier capital ship in the 2360s and '70s) throw out heavy shots on the order of 1-3 exajoules worth of energy in effective yield, with more average/sustained output shots falling in the range of 2-500 PetaJoules, along with 176-268 PJ M/AM warheads fired from two launchers each capable of throwing out a maximum opening salvo of three sets of ten torpedoes (per TNG:TM - each launcher can pre-load ten torpedoes, with up to an additional 16 sitting fueled and armed and ready to load in the launcher assemblies, with an additional four being fueled and armed and ready to load by the time the launch tube is being loaded for the third cycle). That puts the maximum opening salvo of a Galaxy class starship, circa 2360s, at 11,860 PJ of raw energy (60 photorps at 176 PJ or 10,560 PJ total, and 1300 PJ of raw phaser energy from 4-8 rapid phaser shots). With NDF effect against other Trek ships, the maximum opening salvo is actually 23,560 PJ (1300 PJ raw phaser energy times 10). Against non-adapted ships that still have some basic resistance to NDF effects, the maximum opening salvo effective yield is actually 1,720,060 PJ, or ~1.72 ZETAJoules. Against ships/materials with no significant NDF resistance, that figure easily jumps into the mid- to high-ZetaJoule range, and potentially even into the low-YottaJoule range.

Now, Trek shields and hull materials are not actually able to withstand anywhere near that kind of DET energy yield - that falls into the low-PetaJoule range for smaller/older/weaker ship hulls, and the mid-PetaJoule range for bigger/newer ship hulls (that is energy required to breach the hull/cause internal damage). That is just the effective yield of phasers and disruptors against targets not hardened against the NDF effect. This is why twenty Trek capital ships (ten of which were notably more powerful than a Galaxy class, and 10 of were probably only roughly comparable to an Akira class Heavy Cruiser) were projected to be able to blast an ~Earth-sized planet down to its nickel-iron core in about five hours in DS9 "The Die is Cast" and why even tiny (albeit over-powered) Federation ships are stated to be capable of turning a planet into a cinder, yet their standard DET warhead yields are 'only' in the mid-PetaJoule range.

Now, it is also worth noting that the above figures are for an at-launch Galaxy class, circa 2363, prior to the upgraded torpedoes were released, prior to the upgrade to the warp core and EPS grid the ship received in 2370, prior to the addition of additional belts of ablative armor over critical areas of the ship during the Dominion War, and prior to the probably upgrade to Type-XII or even Type-XIV phaser arrays during the Dominion War (the Galaxy launched with Type-Xs in 2363, but by the late 2360s Starfleet had made a leap forward in miniaturization of the internal components of a phaser array, such that Type-X internals could be fitted under a Type-VIII emitter head, and then by 2371/72 to the point that Type-XII internals, previously reserved for starbases, could be fit underneath Type-VIII emitter heads - the array size of the Galaxy does not appear to diminish in the Dominion War, and it is unlikely that the Galaxy did not undergo any kind of refit to the phasers while having so many other systems upgraded, so by the ind of the Dominion War the Galaxy could easily sport Type-XII, and even Type-XIV phasers). This would greatly increase her per-shot firepower capabilities, though sustained firepower would still depend on phaser bank capacities and warp core/EPS capacities, which we know were upgraded in 2370.

This also does not include the addition of Quantum Torpedoes, which use a powerful M/AM reaction to jump-start a release of zero-point energy. That's right, by the late 2360s, the Federation has conducted enough experiments in zero-point energy to have been able to weaponize at least a crude form of ZPE power generation, creating a very new type of warhead with a standard yield three times that of the newer photon torpedoes, or a yield of ~192 megatons / 803 PetaJoules. With upgrades to Type-XIV phasers, expansion of the phaser banks (the baseline Galaxy is launched with 30% of its volume unused and available for reconfiguration), and a payload of quantum torpedoes, a War Refit Galaxy class circa 2375 could easily put out double or tripple the maximum opening salvo of an at-launch Galaxy class, with 50% to 100% more sustained firepower.

And then there is the Romulan D'Deridex, which sports the single largest disruptor cannon we have ever seen fielded by any ship or station, capable of draining a Galaxy class' entire shield grid in just ten shots, from one gun. And the Negh'Var puts both the Galaxy and the D'Deridex to shame in firepower.


Weapon Range:
Trek weapons have been observed firing at a broad range of ranges (lol...), from as close as 500 meters (with objection from the crew), to millions of kilometers, and even billions of kilometers for torpedoes.

Typically, phasers and disruptors have a maximum effective range of ~2-300,000 kilometers. It is worth noting that this is not necessarily their absolute maximum range, just their maximum effective range, as these weapons are limited to ~lightspeed, and it takes roughly a second to travel those distances. When firing on targets as fast and maneuverable as Trek ships, hitting anything with an unguided weapon with a travel time to target of more than a second is extremely difficult. The effective range against bigger and/or slower-moving targets may well be greater, though 2-300,000km standard effective range is a fair guidepost figure for phasers and disruptors.

Torpedoes, being guided ordnance, naturally have longer effective ranges, despite higher travel times to target. Standard Federation photon torpedoes have a maximum sublight speed of ~0.75c, though they rarely have time to reach that velocity at typical Trek engagement ranges (torpedoes fired at FTL naturally maintain their warp velocity until they reach their target or their warp-sustainer coils run out). In TNG "The Wounded" the torpedoes on the USS Phoenix were stated as having a maximum range of ~300,000km, though this is not consistent with other observed and stated ranges. Either these were non-standard torpedoes, or the circumstances of the battle limited the Phoenix's maximum range, as Catamount previously noted. The standard range for the photon torpedoes in the 2360s, as stated in the TNG:TM, is ~4.5 million km, and as Catamount also noted, the standard range for photon torpedoes used by USS Voyager was 8 million km. In VOY "Basics, Pt. 1" we see Kazon torpedoes fired at Voyager while Voyager is approaching at maximum warp. At bare minimum, if Voyager was traveling at Warp 1 / lightspeed, the time between first impact and Voyager's arrival puts the range at 4.5 million km bending-over-backwards-and-snapping-your-spine bare minimum range. Given that Paris stated Warp 9.9 to be "four billion miles per second," or about 21,400c in VOY "The '37s", and that Voyager's maximum sustainable cruiser is Warp 9.975, the actual range could well have been 96.3 billion kilometers, or about 1 AU (and Voyager would have had no reason to slow down on approach, and thus prolong the Kazon bombardment period). Now, those are not Federation torpedoes, but the Kazon are vastly out-teched by the Federation, so if pushed to, the Federation could easily field a torpedo with sublight ranges on the order of several light-minutes or more.

Now, trek ships frequently engage at shorter ranges (and for many good reasons when no side has any notable advantage in weapons range, not the least of which is to reduce target response time), but they have demonstrated the ability to engage and hit targets with reasonable accuracy at ranges up to 2-300,000km with phasers and disruptors, and have stated and observed standard torpedo yields in the range of a few million to a hundred billion kilometers.

Also, an important note regarding Trek torpedo ranges... Trek photon torp ranges are typically only a few million kilometers for a number of reasons, mostly because the ships can't practically engage at ranges much greater than that (all a ship at sublight really has to do to dodge a sublight torpedo fired several light-minutes away is jump to warp for a few seconds, and at those ranges the ships have plenty of warning time), but also because Trek torpedoes are shielded (observed and stated on numerous occasions), and shielded well enough (thanks to overloaded shield generators - it's not like they need to re-use them after the torpedo reaches its target) that at typical engagement ranges Trek ships can't bring enough firepower to bear fast enough to penetrate them and shoot them down, not without bringing their main guns to bear, and then you're wasting powerful phaser shots against torpedoes that you could generally shrug off when those phaser shots would be better directed at your oponent (especially since torps aren't as effective against shields as phasers and disruptors). This is one of the lesser reasons why Trek weapons have shorter ranges (their small shield generators can only take being overloaded for so long, and longer ranges allow for better anti-torpedo targeting solutions, etc.), but very critical in any vs debate, it means that their torpedoes would generally be immune to any anti-missile fire that isn't comparable in yield to a photon torpedo.


Shields:
Trek shields are typically able to endure their own firepowers, with larger capital ships having shield reserves on the order of at least several ExaJoules worth of energy, if not a dozen or more, with smaller ships having a few EJ worth of shield reserves. Now, Trek shields do not flip on and run at full power with a full-strength bubble field projected around them at all times, like other franchises. When active, they do have a constantly-sustained shield bubble around the entire ship, but this sustained bubble is not actually sufficient to deflect the concentrated energy yields thrown around by Trek weaponry. The way Trek shields work is that they maintan this constant, low-level bubble to provide minimal sustained protection, and when their sensor systems detect incoming weapons fire, the shields spike their power levels absurdly high, as much as six whole orders of magnitude beyond their sustained outputs, and concentrate their spiked output in a focused area around the point of impact. This allows Trek shields to shrug off individual shots that are vastly beyond the sustained output capacity of even their collective shield generators, though it does mean there is a very brief window (very brief, thanks to FTL sensors and computer systems) in which some energy from the weapon 'bleeds through' the base sustained-output bubble, before the shields spike up to deflect the fire. This is a huge part of why fighting at closer range can be advantageous against Trek ships - lowered response time means the shields have less time to spike up before the weapons hit, meaning a greater chance of causing bleed-through damage. This is also why high-powered beams and especially pulses are particularly effective against Trek shields - more energy hits the target in that brief bleed-through window - and why torpedoes are considerably less effective against Trek shields (slower travel times generally give the shields enough time to spike their output before the torpedo hits). Now, there is a reason why shields only spike their output when the ship is getting hit - spiking that high causes a lot of waste-heat to be produced, exceeding the sustained heat-dissipation rate of the shields' coolant systems (and Federation coolant systems use liquid helium, which is pretty damned cold... a better coolant than liquid nitrogen). The shields can only spike their output for a short time before the heat levels get too high and they have to reduce output, or shut themselves down all together, or risk melting themselves. This means that particularly powerful blasts can actually overload a ship's shield generators, forcing them to spike beyond their limits, and punch through the shield grid before the shield reserves have been fully drained. This is why ships usually carry several more generators than they typically run actively synced together, so that they can swap stressed generators for stand-by generators to give them time to cool down. The new Regenerative Shielding system fielded on the Prometheus class takes this a step further by mating two generators together into a single, over-sized generator pair. The generators are synced in tandem, but only one is active while the other runs in hot stand-by mode. When the active generator gets over-stressed, the stand-by generator takes over seamlessly, effectively doubling the amount of energy the shields can shrug off in a single salvo.

Trek ships could endure fire from low-PJ range weapons for extended periods of time, and easily shrug off multiple mid-PJ range shots, though the smaller ships would really start to feel those. heavy firepower concentrations in the high-PJ to low-EJ range could overwelm Trek shield generators and punch through, depending on the particular ship involved, and weapons that travel at or near enough to be effectively at lightspeed could potentially cause some bleed-through damage to Trek shields if fired at close enough range, and if they have enough firepower to exceed the strength of the sustained output bubble.


Hull/Armor:
Like shields, typically able to endure their own weaponry, though smaller/older ships can be crippled or destroyed fairly quickly by heavier weaponry. Modern cruisers and capital ships, however, can take considerable pounding, including multiple photon torpedoes to the hull without major damage. Federation hull thickness ranges from ~4" on the Miranda class (no wonder the things get whacked left and right) to ~8" on modern Light Cruisers like the Intrepid, to ~12" on old capital ships like the Excelsior and modern Heavy Cruisers like the Sovereign, to 16"+ on modern capital ships like the Galaxy, to ~24" on the over-built-for-war-and-to-take-a-pounding Defiant class. Hull and spaceframes are comprised of composits and alloys of duranium and tritanium and other advanced materials, and are reinforced by Structural Integrity Fields, a system of forcefields and inertial dampners and other systems that greatly reinforce the hull and spaceframe's material strength, and resistance to NDF effects (hulls and spaceframes are also coated, alloyed and/or composited with NDF-resistant materials). Modern starships also feature Ablative Armor materials, which afford incredible protection against energy weapons, though their resistance to kinetic impactor weapons (virtually unseen in Trek, for a variety of reasons) is not known. Trek ships have been known to take a pounding, and Starfleet ships in particular are known for having back-up systems for their back-up systems (and sometimes additional back-up systems for those).


Sublight Speed:
Impulse engines are fusion-powered rocket/plasma exhaust mass drivers, coupled with artificial mass reduction systems. They are capable of sublight accelerations on the order of dozens to thousands of kilometers per second. In TMP, the absolute bare-minimum-can't-be-any-lower acceleration is 34 km/s^2, assuming constant acceleration to reach Jupiter in 1.8 hours (Jupiter being ~4.77 AU from Earth on the future date in question). That figure could very easily be hundreds or even thousands of km/s^2. In VOY "The Swarm", USS Voyager demonstrated an acceleration of ~4,000 km/s^2. Maximum impulse speeds are not certain - the standard 'top speed' is 0.25c, a limit established for practical purposes, mostly to avoid too many problems with relativistic effects, though this is not the maximum speed capable by any given starship. I haven't been able to find my copy of the TNG:TM (it's around here somewhere, I know it... just burried under stuff...), so I can't pull up the Galaxy class' maximum impulse speed, but iirc, it's somewhere in the range of 0.6-something or 0.7-something.

FTL Speed:
Trek warp speed is hard to pin down with specific speed values. Basically, your mileage varies, depending on the subspace background you're traveling through. Subspace varies, with eddies and currents not unlike rivers and lakes and streams, etc., which affect the objective velocity of ships will get from a given warp factor. Generally, warp speed scales exponentially with the warp factor. Warp 6 is about 2,000c, Warp 9.2 is about 9,000c (TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before"), and Warp 9.9 is about 21,000c (VOY "The '37s"). If the ship is traveling through an area where the subspace background is well-charted, however, it can take advantage of the eddies and currents in subspace to get greater relative velocity for the warp factor involved. In known territory, Trek ships have demonstrated speeds ranging from 107,000c (TOS "Bread and Circuses") to over 788,000c (TOS "That Which Survives"), and even runabouts, which are generally limited to a maximum of Warp 5 or so, have been observed traveling at at least 30,000c (DS9 "Whispers"), and STV: The Final Frontier showed a trip to the center of the galaxy at a speed of over 20,000,000c (though in fairness, Rodenberry himself noted that some elements of STV were not canon, so this figure is suspect).

Transwarp drives are a bit different, a kind of mix between warp drives and an artificial wormhole network. Early Borg Transwarp drives were basically systems that allowed the Borg to activate transwarp conduits that existed in subspace and that would open portals onto fixed paths between two conduits (though transwarp hubs that allowed for more diverse routing may have existed at that time as well). This changed considerably after the Borg conflict with Species 8472, when the Borg assimilated Species 116 (whom they had been trying and failing to assimilate for centuries), and gained access to their Slipstream drive technology (gee, thanks, Janeway... way to go there... :o ), which was apparently incorporated into their Transwarp drive system. Slipstream drive operates similarly to transwarp, in that the ship opens a conduit of sorts into subspace, though it does not follow a fixed path between two gates. The two are probably just different versions/methods of performing the same process.

After her first encounter with slipstream technology (VOY "Hope and Fear"), Voyager was able to cover 300 lightyears in an hour with a jury-rigged system they had built onto their existing warp drive, which translates to 2,629,800c. A year later, Voyager cut ten years (~10,000 lightyears) off their journey in a failed test of their own home-built slipstream drive (VOY "Timeless"). I don't have a timeframe for how long it took them to cross those 10,000 lightyears, but it could not have been more than a few hours. Even assuming ten hours to cross 10,000 lightyears, that's still 8,766,000c, and in the alternate timeline that comprised most of the episode they had, in a fairly short timespan, made it almost all the way back to the Alpha Quadrant before a miscorrection for quantum instability sent Voyager careening out of slipstream smack into a planet.

As for transwarp drive employed by the Borg after assimilating Species 116, Voyager managed to steal a Borg transwarp coil in VOY "Dark Frontier", and crossed 20,000 lightyears in a timeframe notably less than 48 hours (Seven had been ordered by the Doctor to rest for 48 hours, but after making her log entry stating that they had traveled 20,000 lightyears before the stolen transwarp coil failed, Janeway found seven working in the cargobay against the Doctor's orders). Assuming 24 hours (and the time interval was indicated to be much less than that), that is a minimum speed with a stolen, jury-rigged transwarp coil of 7,305,000c. Slipstream and Transwarp drives, if properly developed and implemented with purpose-designed and purpose-built systems (and especially purpose-built ships), both could easily match or even considerably exceed the 33,230,769c speed Andromeda achieved while piloting solely on auto-pilot, though I'm not sure about the ~2,000,000,000c figure claimed for organic-piloted FTL in Andromeda. That might be stretching it, though they could probably get in the same ballpark fairly easily.

Now, the Federation doesn't have this as of 2379 (Nemesis), and probably won't have it for at least a couple years into the 2380s, though they should definitely have it by the 2390s. Voyager was able to jury-rig and coble together systems that kinda-sort and almost worked, with the limited resources and tools and talent they had available on their little Light Cruiser stranded in the middle of nowhere. The full resources of Starfleet should be able to get a full Quantum Slipstream Drive working with the samples and data they brought back in a few years to a decade, at most. In the meantime, however, Trek is at a distinct disadvantage in regards to FTL speeds (though not quite as much in their home territory... They can probably skirt a million c or so with modern ships in known 'subspace lanes').


Sensors:
Trek sensors are a mix of STL and FTL systems, capable of scanning subspace as well as conventional EM and particle radiation, with insanely high levels of detail at close range, and respectable scanning ranges. Even pre-Federation ships were capable of scanning the DNA of the crew on nearby ships (!!!!!) (ENT "Silent Enemy"). Routine sensor scans have a radius of 3 lightyears, and the E-D could detect the USS Phoenix up to ~10 lightyears away, when the Phoenix was trying not to be found. In VOY "The Raven", the Hansens small, circa 2350s science ship conducted a scan for Borg ships with a radius of 40 lightyears (and Borg ships have been shown to be rather hard to detect when they don't want to be seen). Very critical here not only is the level of detail that Trek sensors can pick up (and scanning the DNA of a crew inside a different ship is not something that can be done with basic EM scanning), but also the fact that they are primarily FTL sensors. Trek subspace scanners can basically gather real-time data from lightyears away.


Other:
Transporters. Against any opponent without shields, transporters are deadly. As Stargate demonstrated on numerous occasions once the Tau'ri got hold of Asgard beaming technology, any ship that cannot block transporter/beaming technology gets a high-yield warhead beamed in right next to their main reactor. This means that Trek ships will have to lower their shields, but briefly lowering shields while engaging in hard evasive maneuvers at near 40,000km (maximum range of transporters) would be more than worthwhile to pop a few enemy capital ships. Modern Trek ships can even transport objects while at warp, so against targets without shields, a quick warp-speed fly-by would keep the Trek ship completely safe and make enemy ships go away. Whether or not Andromeda ECM could block Trek transporters is unknown (though I would give it a fair bet that they could), though if the Trek ship has a sensor range advantage, particularly regarding FTL sensors, they could potentially warp by and deposit their little surprise package before the Andromeda ship even knew they were there.

That is another huge advantage Trek ships have: FTL attack runs. Trek ships can engage sublight targets while moving at warp speed, giving them an incredible advantage in combat maneuverability and combat range, and making them effectively invulnerable to any opponent who cannot track a target moving at many times lightspeed across their weapons range. Torpedoes fired at warp would also have incredible weapons ranges, and cross those ranges very quickly.



And I was going to get era-by-era addendums added to this, but it is now twenty to three, and I have to leave for work in a little under six hours... ^_^ I'll add more tomorrow evening.

#334 Admiral Bosh

    Rookie

  • 8 posts

Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:01 AM

View PostStrayed, on 28 November 2011 - 02:52 PM, said:

EvE Online - Titans doomsday weapons pretty much kill most ships under supercap in one shot.


http://warhammer40k....iki/Nova_Cannon

40k Rocks the EVE Titan weapons. Also note that the 40k torps can be near 100m long

Not to mention that while i admit that void shields would eventually fall under startrek or starwars beam weapons the sheer numbers that the imperium of man can field would overwhelm any other group. When we include weapons capable of exterminatus and teleporting terminator armored troops onboard during bording actions you have an extreamly powerful force.

(while i love BSG, if simple nukes can damage ships, they are totally wrecked. The only chance BSG would have would be swarms of vipers protecting bombers, helping them get inside the void shields to launch nukes at point blank range. But, 40k has bombers of their own, and even without them, the shieldless ships of BSG would be easily destroyed.

As for BattleTech, well ... come on. Mechs at 14 meters vs 40k Titans that shoot 10 meter diamiter shells.




40k just wins with the level of tech and scale.

Over ONE MILLION WORLDS vs the just over 2 thousand of the inner sphere.

Edited by Admiral Bosh, 10 January 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#335 Ledabot

    Member

  • PipPip
  • The Blood Bound
  • The Blood Bound
  • 40 posts
  • LocationNew Zealand

Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:14 AM

View PostAdmiral Bosh, on 10 January 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:


http://warhammer40k....iki/Nova_Cannon

40k Rocks the EVE Titan weapons. Also note that the 40k torps can be near 100m long

Not to mention that while i admit that void shields would eventually fall under startrek or starwars beam weapons the sheer numbers that the imperium of man can field would overwhelm any other group. When we include weapons capable of exterminatus and teleporting terminator armored troops onboard during bording actions you have an extreamly powerful force.

(while i love BSG, if simple nukes can damage ships, they are totally wrecked. The only chance BSG would have would be swarms of vipers protecting bombers, helping them get inside the void shields to launch nukes at point blank range. But, 40k has bombers of their own, and even without them, the shieldless ships of BSG would be easily destroyed.

As for BattleTech, well ... come on. Mechs at 14 meters vs 40k Titans that shoot 10 meter diamiter shells.




40k just wins with the level of tech and scale.

Over ONE MILLION WORLDS vs the just over 2 thousand of the inner sphere.



I could see 40k as a possible future to the battletech universe. They are both supposedly both future versions of this universe, however farfetched they might be. 40k titans (imperial anyway) are comparable to battlemechs. They do have a significant disadvantage that they have no rotating midsection. actully scrach that. anything bigger than a warhound would eat up battlemech like an dashi eats fleas for breakfast.

Edited by Ledabot, 10 January 2012 - 12:18 AM.


#336 atlas shrugged92

    Member

  • Pip
  • 17 posts

Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:35 AM

warhammer 40k and starwars very close. but starwars wins because their technology is improving not stagnating or being lost like warhammers.

we should do one of these polls for mechs

#337 atlas shrugged92

    Member

  • Pip
  • 17 posts

Posted 10 January 2012 - 12:41 AM

ummm we should add the mass effect franchise

just a thought

Edited by atlas shrugged92, 10 January 2012 - 12:41 AM.


#338 Gustaf Brackman

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 47 posts

Posted 10 January 2012 - 02:20 AM

While a Nova cannon is indeed considered a powerful weapon it is by far not the most powerful one (ignoring the Dark Age of Technology ships like Slaughtersong, Inquisitorial, Adeptus Mechanicus, and Rogue traders ships which field special types of weapons that make the Imperial Navy weapons looks like a water gun compared to a nuclear weapon) it is by far not the most effective weapon. Most sources state that the weapon is really inaccurate against small ships and that it's power can reach about 12 plasma bombs( According to WH40K plasma is made by converting normal gases or fuel materials into an energized state of matter known as plasma, the stuff of the stars themselves. It is also said that an ordinary plasma gun shoots plasma bolts that reach the heat level of a sun, they didn't state if by sun they mean the normal sun we know or a sun of another system.) now this might be impressive if it wasn't for the fact that each standard Imperium torpedo had a plasma warhead that is as strong as a plasma bomb and Imperial ships usually can fire hundereds if not more of those torpedos( we are not even mentioning the special torpedo warheads that outclasses the standard torpedo to the point that there is no comparison between the two.). Actually most Imperial Commanders keep those cannons just to be used against other captial ships or small ships,if they are in point blank range where you can actually hit them.

Basically what I am saying don't use the Nova cannon to try and compare to other type of Doomsday weapons.

Edited by Gustaf Brackman, 10 January 2012 - 02:55 AM.


#339 Gustaf Brackman

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 47 posts

Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:01 AM

View Postatlas shrugged92, on 10 January 2012 - 12:35 AM, said:

warhammer 40k and starwars very close. but starwars wins because their technology is improving not stagnating or being lost like warhammers.

we should do one of these polls for mechs

This is actually a bit inaccurate. Wile indeed the Imperium of Man technology in general is starting to fade. This is only caused by the Mechanicus monopoly on advanced technology within the Imperium. They prevent any type of new technology to be used within the Imperium till they get full info about it and if it was advanced enough claim that only they should produce it and hide all the production plans. They are so advanced their power rivals that of the Inquistion, not to mention they never allow ordinary science groups to work outside their organization they will either stop them or failing to do that swallow them into their organization. You would be surprised by the amount of advanced technology that could turn the tide of the Imperium wars inside the Adeptus Mechanicus which is only given to the ones inside the organization or high ranking Imperials like Inquisitors or even just kept secret without being used.

EDIT: Actually if we consider the amount of independece and power within the Adeptus Mechanicus we should treat it as an allied empire to the Imperium of Man not an organization within it.

EDIT2: Now that I recall the Mechanicus were never a part of the Imperium the treaty of Mars signed by the Emperor recognized Mars as another empire but allied with the Imperium. Basically they signed on the Mechanicus supplying the Imperium with advanced technology and the Imperium giving all new types of found technology and STCs as donations to mars. (One side of the treaty is abusing it and not offering all what he promised guess which one.)

Edited by Gustaf Brackman, 10 January 2012 - 03:02 AM.


#340 Tifalia

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • LocationBoardwalk, Capellan Confederation

Posted 10 January 2012 - 03:27 AM

I prefer Babylon 5 over all of them, thank you very much.



9 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 9 guests, 0 anonymous users