146 replies to this topic

[Shiven]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 26 May 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I agree that these things are also points, but again, Shiven- I'm comparing their performance and predominance mainly to other Clan 'mechs. This topic isn't about bringing Clan 'mechs into line with IS 'mechs, it's about bringing Clan 'mechs into line with one another.

Bringing Clan and IS into line with one another is a whole other kettle of fish, because you have to get into things like the Clan tendency to run at the same speed where pilots in Inner Sphere 'mechs have been so far encouraged to operate at wildly differing speeds from one another, the value of simpler-to-use weapons like the IS lasers with the shorter burntimes or the single-shell autocannon, and so on and so forth.

Frankly, that's something better done once the IS 'mechs are all roughly of comparable base capability, and the Clan 'mechs are also all of roughly comparable base capability, each within their own technology base. When we can say 'a Nova is a comparable choice to a Stormcrow' and 'a Summoner is a comparable choice to a Timber Wolf', then we're ready to look at mass balancing the technologies of one side against those of the other side.

I see, I guess I should've stressed on the main point I was trying to make.

The TBR and SCR are in the "sweet spot" of mechanics - good armor, good mobility and good firepower with no draw backs.

There is no reason to take anything else, unless you want to run a HBR for ECM. (which in that case, take a pair of SCRs and HBRs)

There should be a cost for using a nearly omnipotent machine.

Edited by Shiven, 26 May 2015 - 01:23 PM.

[Tombstoner]

Shiven, on 26 May 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

I see, I guess I should've stressed on the main point I was trying to make.

The TBR and SCR are in the "sweet spot" of mechanics - good armor, good mobility and good firepower with no draw backs.

There is no reason to take anything else, unless you want to run a HBR for ECM. (which in that case, take a pair of SCRs and HBRs)

There should be a cost for using a nearly omnipotent machine.

Yes your armor is limited to 7.5 tones vs 10 tones. that's it and it's a trivial amount since it's divided across 7 locations - be honest you don't have much rear armor - 10 points max.

10% of mech tonnage is your max armor limit and is carried over from TT and oddly no one objects to it. But ask for COF and all hell breaks loose.

[1453 R]

Shiven, on 26 May 2015 - 01:21 PM, said:

...
There should be a cost for using a nearly omnipotent machine.

See, that right there is the issue on the table.

Players see a lack of easily recognizable weaknesses in the Timber Wolf especially and equate that to a corresponding abundance of strength. "It doesn't have some readily-identified Weak Point I can attack for Massive Damage, so it's a God Machine!"

That's just not true. A lack of glaring faults does not equate to omnipotence, it simply means that the TBR is an excellent generalist. The machine's 'Mechlab flexibility is truly phenomenal, but it can still only do one job at a time, and in that one job it can be matched by that job's given specialists. Alternatively, it can be taken out by that job's weak points. A BrawlerWolf with SPLs and SRMs is devastating in close and has the speed to get there, but he's still got really short range and can be taken from a distance if you see him coming, a'la the old Splatcats. Laservomit Wolves still run hot as hell and come apart in a tight scrum. the Wolf doesn't have the weight to run multiple ballistics worth a snot, and its LRM builds are as bad and trolly as everyone else's.

It's good. It's great, excellent even, but it does have competition, and its competition will often beat it out in that competitor's specialty. Hellbringers, for example, are much better snipers even with the introduction of the TBR-A LT, and the Cauldron-Born is lining up to be a ten-tons-lighter direct replacement with vastly better ballistic options. The great thing about being a TBR owner isn't that the TBR is an unstoppable master-race UberMech, but that you can do whatever you feel like on your TBR at any given point.

[Christof Romulus]

In reality, the only changes needed to 'reduce' the 'strictly better' status of the Stormcrow and Timberwolf would be to increase the CT hitbox coverage to be more similar to that of the Catapult.

I am not saying it should be done, but that would instantly reduce both of them a tier, even if the negative quirks they received were reverted.

[Shiven]

1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

-snip-

I did say it was "nearly" omnipotent, but I digress.

The TBR excels at long distance engagements (superior laser vomit, excellent mobility, competent sniper) which is the current meta. It lacks the weaknesses that other pure snipers have - less agility, less armor.

I know the TBR's heat problems are in brawls - that's where my unit beats them (we're normally Inner Sphere)

I'm not even calling for overt nerfs to the machines it's just readily apparent why they're difficult to balance.

Edited by Shiven, 26 May 2015 - 04:25 PM.

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 26 May 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

See, that right there is the issue on the table.

Players see a lack of easily recognizable weaknesses in the Timber Wolf especially and equate that to a corresponding abundance of strength. "It doesn't have some readily-identified Weak Point I can attack for Massive Damage, so it's a God Machine!"

That's just not true. A lack of glaring faults does not equate to omnipotence, it simply means that the TBR is an excellent generalist. The machine's 'Mechlab flexibility is truly phenomenal, but it can still only do one job at a time, and in that one job it can be matched by that job's given specialists. Alternatively, it can be taken out by that job's weak points. A BrawlerWolf with SPLs and SRMs is devastating in close and has the speed to get there, but he's still got really short range and can be taken from a distance if you see him coming, a'la the old Splatcats. Laservomit Wolves still run hot as hell and come apart in a tight scrum. the Wolf doesn't have the weight to run multiple ballistics worth a snot, and its LRM builds are as bad and trolly as everyone else's.

It's good. It's great, excellent even, but it does have competition, and its competition will often beat it out in that competitor's specialty. Hellbringers, for example, are much better snipers even with the introduction of the TBR-A LT, and the Cauldron-Born is lining up to be a ten-tons-lighter direct replacement with vastly better ballistic options. The great thing about being a TBR owner isn't that the TBR is an unstoppable master-race UberMech, but that you can do whatever you feel like on your TBR at any given point.

This is probably the most succinct, and strictly on point message that expresses what I have been saying for ages about the TW. Egad man...well done!

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Hence my stance that the Timber Wolf should get slight debuffs to the one element of its capability that applies to whatever it tries to do- its overall agility. It's not a be-all end-all 'mech, but it's significantly stronger than all of its compatriots. Reducing this disparity by cutting back on the overall strength of the Wolf would then allow a blanket buff across all the 'mechs it's competing with and the Wolf itself (via alterations to the performance of Clan tech as a whole) without having to throw separate numbers at everything.

Oh, and tear off those silly anti-laser shackles. They're not doing anything of value.