20 replies to this topic

[Spleenslitta]

I know you have your concerns about all kinds of things such as that firerate in the poll.
Just look at the titles above the spoilerbuttons below and open what worries you.

I just want both the Clan and IS AC2's to be viable alternatives to their respective ER PPC and ER LL.

I haven't put any lower AC2 heat or weight reduction in the poll because this is a thread discussing how to go around that.

Since PGI doesn't want to touch the AC2's heat, weight or damage per shot let's figure a way around that shall we?

Shaking, explosion blinding and the blinding firing flash.

Spoiler

If the firerate is increased and the shaking stays the same the AC2 would become overpowered for sure according to my book.
So either no shaking at all or very small shaking only.

The blinding effect by explosions in the face of the target is also a concern and should be toned down by a lot.

The current firing flash could cause epileptic seizures for all i know.
I put an AC2 on an FS-9H once and the weapon flashed right before the cockpit so often it affected my aim a lot.

The reasons for firerate and Burst Fire Limitations explained.

Spoiler

First i'll explain Burst Fire Limitations - (Shorthand - BFL)

Vote above to decide on how many shots one can fire rapidly before a cooldown till the next burst becomes available.
You also vote for the lenght of the cooldown and the firerate of the burst of course.

For example: if you fire 5 shots rapidly you get a 4 secs cooldown period before you can fire another burst.

These limitations are somewhat necessary to stop the AC2 from becoming overpowered.
You'll probably see why when you read the damage balance below here.

I concidered including a jamming chance due to the firerate being so high.
But then it would just be an UAC2 which IS doesn't have access to yet.

Damage balancing through firerate.
This is how i think to make the AC2 balanced with the ER PPC and ER LL.
I choose these weapons to compare it with since they are it's closest competitors when you only look at range and weight.

If the AC2 becomes a weapon recommended to be used in bursts then we need to compare it to a burst weapon.

The ER LL has a burn duration so it's kind of a burst weapon. It's also somewhat comparable in weight to the AC2.

ER LL has a burn duration of 1.25 secs for 9 damage with a 3.25 secs cooldown.

If we increased the AC2 firerate to 1 shot per 0.25 secs it would becomed 10 damage over 1.25 secs.
That is balanced with the ER LL since it's lighter and it has instant hits.

If the AC2 can only fire 5 times before a cooldown period of 4 secs kicks in it becomes like this.
5 shots with 2 damage each over 1.25 secs with a 4 secs cooldown = 10 damage every 4 secs.

Which is the same as the ER PPC since it has 4 secs cooldown.
More spread damage than the ER LL due to bullet traveltime and the ER LL has a 0.75 secs faster cooldown.

Near perfect balance when it comes to damage i think. So i'll use these stats in my comparisons below.
Also we will need to be able to hold the trigger down to fire at maximum firerate during our bursts....or wear out our mouses within a month.

Of course we must be able to stop the burst when we release the trigger to preserve ammo and not boil ourselves.

FupDup's idea.

Spoiler

The time between shells should be fairly short, no more than 0.1 seconds (current CUAC/2 is 0.14 seconds).

Then, give it a longer cooldown to compensate of course. This might also indirectly reduce the heat and ammo consumption of the weapon as well, making it a win-win in combination with the higher upfront damage (burst).

Heat doesn't need to be lowered because....

Spoiler

If heat stays the same we get 1 heat per shot.
5 heat for a burst of 5 x 2 damage with 4 secs cooldown with my example BFL in effect.
That is colder than an ER PPC / ER LL which also makes sense since ballistics are supposed to be colder to fire than energy weapons.

Hot to fire in long bursts for a ballistic weapon. Especially if you boat it.
If we lower the heat i'm actually concerned the AC2 would become overpowered in comparison to the ER PPC/ER LL.

Ammunition balancing and weight balancing.

Spoiler

Currently the AC2 gets 75 rounds per tonn.
This is something i don't know how to balance properly. So i'm reluctant to take a firm stance here.

But i think increasing the ammo per tonn might be a good idea.

Because of the high firerate combined with the AC2's prefered long range.
It becomes more likely to miss a few shots that goes under the armpit or between the legs of the target or somesuch.

I think 25 extra rounds per tonn would cover it.
This is actually to give the light mechs a more solid reason to use the AC2.
They have very little weight to dedicate to ammo for a primary weapon as heavy as the AC2.

As for the weight of the AC2 itself. The ER PPC weights 1 tonn more and it relies on a lot more heatsinks.
Clan AC2 has a 2 tonnage difference to the CER PPC.
But it also has bigger heat difference pretty much equaling it out with how the IS AC2 is different to the IS ER PPC.

Comparing the new AC2 with the bigger calibre AC's

Spoiler

My only real concern is the AC5.
But as long as players think the AC5 can compete with the ER PPC---
--Then it should be able to compete with the new AC2 because of the damage balance i explained above.
Besides the AC5 gets 2 heat from causing 10 damage while the AC2 gets 5 heat.

The UAC 5 has a good firerate. So if the AC5 can deal with the new AC2, the UAC5 won't have a problem.

As for the AC10 and AC20. They have better heat to damage ratio.
Pinpoint damage on a moving target in comparison to what a new AC2 would do when doing 10 or 20 damage.
It get's splashed all over a target. Especially at longer ranges or against a fast target.

IS AC2's Clan cousins.

Spoiler

When it comes to the Clan AC2's. I have next to no experience with them so i won't take a firm stance on it.
But i do have some slight opinions both on how they balance against the CER PPC / CER LL and the IS AC2.

Keep in mind that the Clan AC2's still have their several bullets to get their 2 damage per mouseclick.

I think the CUAC2 should have twice the burst firerate.
1 shot 0.125 secs. Yeah i know...that's a ridiculous number so....

or

double the Burst Fire Limitation capacity is also a possibility.
Meaning it could fire 10 times instead of just 5 before a cooldown of 4 secs kicks in.
Of course with the possibility of jamming just like it is now.

As for the Clan AC2 LBX. Well that one should have the same burst firerate and Burst Fire Limitations as the IS AC2.

It makes the AC2 capable of competing as a standalone weapon.
A ballistic weapon that light mechs can make use of even if they cannot boat it.

Ammunition might become a problem in light mechs due to the firerate, but that is something the dev's will have an easier time figuring out than the rest.

I took the liberty of enlarging and fattening some parts of the topic to make the post more navigatable.
The spoiler buttons were put in place to stop you from running away from my textwall monster.

If you have some recommendations tell me in a PM if i don't get my ass in gear fast enough.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 05 May 2015 - 08:21 AM.

[FupDup]

In terms of burst fire, one idea I've seen is to have it fire a burst of 2 shells, with each shell doing the usual 2 damage. This sidesteps the damage issue without breaking PGI's fettish of "B-b-b-but the AC/X has the number X in its name, so it can ONLY ever do exactly X damage and nothing different!"

The time between shells should be fairly short, no more than 0.1 seconds (current CUAC/2 is 0.14 seconds).

Then, give it a longer cooldown to compensate of course. This might also indirectly reduce the heat and ammo consumption of the weapon as well, making it a win-win in combination with the higher upfront damage (burst).

Edited by FupDup, 04 May 2015 - 03:39 PM.

[Spleenslitta]

Sounds like a decent idea but it still would not be able to compete with the ER PPC....i think. I'm too tired to think straight.
It's 01:47 AM here.

Did you read this part of my post? It both limits the AC2 and gives it a boost at the same time.
Now i'm going...to bed...so sleepy. Work tomorrow.

Spleenslitta, on 04 May 2015 - 03:24 PM, said:

The reasons for firerate and Burst Fire Limitations explained.

First i'll explain Burst Fire Limitations - (Shorthand - BFL)

Vote above to decide on how many shots one can fire rapidly before a cooldown till the next burst becomes available.
You also vote for the lenght of the cooldown and the firerate of the burst of course.

For example: if you fire 5 shots rapidly you get a 4 secs cooldown period before you can fire another burst.

These limitations are somewhat necessary to stop the AC2 from becoming overpowered.
You'll probably see why when you read the damage balance below here.

I concidered including a jamming chance due to the firerate being so high.
But then it would just be an UAC2 which IS doesn't have access to yet.

Damage balancing through firerate.
This is how i think to make the AC2 balanced with the ER PPC and ER LL.
I choose these weapons to compare it with since they are it's closest competitors when you only look at range and weight.

If the AC2 becomes a weapon recommended to be used in bursts then we need to compare it to a burst weapon.

The ER LL has a burn duration so it's kind of a burst weapon. It's also somewhat comparable in weight to the AC2.

ER LL has a burn duration of 1.25 secs for 9 damage with a 3.25 secs cooldown.

If we increased the AC2 firerate to 1 shot per 0.25 secs it would becomed 10 damage over 1.25 secs.
That is balanced with the ER LL since it's lighter and it has instant hits.

If the AC2 can only fire 5 times before a cooldown period of 4 secs kicks in it becomes like this.
5 shots with 2 damage each over 1.25 secs with a 4 secs cooldown = 10 damage every 4 secs.

Which is the same as the ER PPC since it has 4 secs cooldown.
More spread damage than the ER LL due to bullet traveltime and the ER LL has a 0.75 secs faster cooldown.

Near perfect balance when it comes to damage i think. So i'll use these stats in my comparisons below.
Also we will need to be able to hold the trigger down to fire at maximum firerate during our bursts....or wear out our mouses within a month.

Of course we must be able to stop the burst when we release the trigger to preserve ammo and not boil ourselves.

Heat doesn't need to be lowered because....
If heat stays the same we get 1 heat per shot.
5 heat for a burst of 5 x 2 damage with 4 secs cooldown with my example BFL in effect.
That is colder than an ER PPC / ER LL which also makes sense since ballistics are supposed to be colder to fire than energy weapons.

Hot to fire in long bursts for a ballistic weapon. Especially if you boat it.
If we lower the heat i'm actually concerned the AC2 would become overpowered in comparison to the ER PPC/ER LL.

[Spleenslitta]

FupDup, on 04 May 2015 - 03:34 PM, said:

In terms of burst fire, one idea I've seen is to have it fire a burst of 2 shells, with each shell doing the usual 2 damage. This sidesteps the damage issue without breaking PGI's fettish of "B-b-b-but the AC/X has the number X in its name, so it can ONLY ever do exactly X damage and nothing different!"

The time between shells should be fairly short, no more than 0.1 seconds (current CUAC/2 is 0.14 seconds).

Then, give it a longer cooldown to compensate of course. This might also indirectly reduce the heat and ammo consumption of the weapon as well, making it a win-win in combination with the higher upfront damage (burst).

Spent 10 minutes trying to sleep before i realised what the idea really was.
It does sound good. I'll add it to the poll FupDup.

[Atlai]

I tend to not use ballistics very much, so take what i say with a grain of salt.

I personally think the amount of screen shake and blinding fire is a little much. I think if they reduce (drastically) the amount of screen shake recieved when hit with this weapon, it would be good. I also think they should get rid of the blinding flash genreated by firing this weapon, it's like the MGun, nearly impossible to aim with because of how blinding it is (My 7 MGun ShadowCat is going to be fun...) and i think they should change that.

As for ammo, I agree, they should increase the ammo count for per tonne. I know this will give boats more ammo, but honestly like Spleen said this wouldn't be a very good boat weapon. So with that in mind, (especially since this should be a good light mech weapon platform) I think an ammo increase would be a very good idea.

In regards to fire rate and cooldown, like I said I don't use these types of weapons as often as LAZORZ so I can't give too much imput. But it think what Spleen suggested is a good idea, at least by the math. Increasing the amount of bursts would help to balance out the weapon I believe.

[Mister Raven]

I thought the mechwarrior universe had ammo types?

Add HE ammo and AP ammo to the different autocannons. If i want to shake some one i will use HE. if i want tear them up i will use AP.

simple right?

[Spleenslitta]

Mister Raven, on 04 May 2015 - 11:57 PM, said:

I thought the mechwarrior universe had ammo types?

Add HE ammo and AP ammo to the different autocannons. If i want to shake some one i will use HE. if i want tear them up i will use AP.

simple right?

I appriciate any idea that could make the AC2 into a decent weapon. Don't get me wrong about that.
Simple ideas like this are most often the best as a matter of fact.

But there are some serious problems standing in the way of this idea.

1: The developer who was in charge of making the ammunition code for MWO didn't make the weapons capable of switching ammunition types.
This developer was fired because of this problem i heard.

I've heard talks about how the ammunition code would have to be rewritten from scratch to allow this.
But i don't know anything about coding so someone else can tell us how big this problem really is.

2: I don't think the AC's in the current part of the timeline have different ammunition types. And PGI wants to stick as close to the lore as possible.
Right now the ingame year is probably 3052 since the battle of Tukayyid took place very recently.

3: If the ammunition code is fixed and the AC2 get's custom armor piercing ammunition there would be some problems with the other AC's calibres.
Imagine an AC20 with AP ammo. Armor on a light cannot stand up to a standard AC20 shell that well.
Imagine how an AC20 AP shell would tear apart armor.

Then imagine dual AC20 with AP ammo. By this point armor on any mech regardless of mech size would be concidered thin as paper.

[Xoco]

Seems like a good topic to go from. I don't have enough experience with AC2 to chime in on the fix, but I know that it is currently very lackluster. Here's hoping to see some changes down the line.

[Spleenslitta]

Xoco, on 05 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Seems like a good topic to go from. I don't have enough experience with AC2 to chime in on the fix, but I know that it is currently very lackluster. Here's hoping to see some changes down the line.

Thanks Xoco.
You're neutral Xoco because you don't have much experience with the AC2 as you admitted.
Could you tell me if the example below is fairly balanced or not?

I'll provide the stats on the new AC2 for easy referance.

New AC2 with how i think it's stats should be.
2 damage and 1 heat per shot.
1 shot every 0.25 secs but can only fire 5 times at max firerate before a 4 secs cooldown kicks inn till the next burst.

5x 1heat /2damage = 10 damage and 5 heat in 1.25 secs with 4 secs cooldown after that.
6 tonns + ammo. 1 slot + 1 per ammo.

The ER PPC and ER LL are easier to referance on smurfy i guess.

Edited by Spleenslitta, 05 May 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Ronin Wario]

What about more damage?

[Spleenslitta]

Ronin Wario, on 26 August 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

What about more damage?

More damage is something PGI is incredibly reluctant to touch because it's lore and all that. They want to stick close to the lore whenever possible.
But if firerate is increased then damage done per second will increase by a lot.
Imagine an AC2 with 1 shot fired every 0.25 secs. That's 5x2=10 damage in 1.25 secs which is the same as the laser burn duration of the IS ER LL (9damage).

Just read the entire textwall monster in my original post and it's all explained very thoroughly.

[Evilwallofdeath]

I think the only thing the AC2 needs is a velocity increase. As fast or faster than a Gauss Rifle slug. Actually hitting someone at long distances is my main grief with using the AC2. Yeah, it doesn't do as much damage as other ACs, but you shouldn't have to lead them as much to get reliable hits. It should be more -accurate- then it's other AC counterparts.

Having an AC2, should be giving you hits that are as reliable to get to the target on time as good or better than a Gauss RIfle.

[Telmasa]

I would only change 2 things about how AC-2s work currently.

1. Increased ballistic ammo per-ton; the AC/10 currently sets a healthy benchmark, I think.
2. Play with ghost heat settings. Right now, it's barely tolerable, and a clever pilot can deal with it just fine even with 4 AC-2s, but for a weapon that goes to the max for DPS over the peek-a-boo alpha, the heatscale nerf applied to it is too much.

[Spleenslitta]

Evilwallofdeath, on 26 August 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

I think the only thing the AC2 needs is a velocity increase. As fast or faster than a Gauss Rifle slug. Actually hitting someone at long distances is my main grief with using the AC2. Yeah, it doesn't do as much damage as other ACs, but you shouldn't have to lead them as much to get reliable hits. It should be more -accurate- then it's other AC counterparts.

Having an AC2, should be giving you hits that are as reliable to get to the target on time as good or better than a Gauss RIfle.

The velocity could be higher yes. But even if it was like a laser the facetime to do serious damage would still be the same.
The AC2 is just overweight for the amount of damage it's capable of dishing out reliably.

Telmasa, on 26 August 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I would only change 2 things about how AC-2s work currently.

1. Increased ballistic ammo per-ton; the AC/10 currently sets a healthy benchmark, I think.
2. Play with ghost heat settings. Right now, it's barely tolerable, and a clever pilot can deal with it just fine even with 4 AC-2s, but for a weapon that goes to the max for DPS over the peek-a-boo alpha, the heatscale nerf applied to it is too much.

I agree on the ammo per tonn Telmasa but the AC2 is gonna need more than just a tweak to the Ghost Heat.
It has to become a weapon capable doing well without being boated. You can put a single ER PPC in a light along with some backup weapons and get good results.

But you cannot do the same with the AC2. The reason is the 3.6 second facetime to inflict the same amount of damage as an ER PPC.
Peek-a-boo with an AC2? if you do that you will receive return fire before you get behind cover because of the long facetime.
Damage is scattered too.

Did you guys read the original post or did you skip it? I know it's a textwall monster.

[Kmieciu]

Telmasa, on 26 August 2015 - 05:47 PM, said:

I would only change 2 things about how AC-2s work currently.

1. Increased ballistic ammo per-ton; the AC/10 currently sets a healthy benchmark, I think.
2. Play with ghost heat settings. Right now, it's barely tolerable, and a clever pilot can deal with it just fine even with 4 AC-2s, but for a weapon that goes to the max for DPS over the peek-a-boo alpha, the heatscale nerf applied to it is too much.

1. AC2 deserves even more damage per tonne of ammo than AC10, since the damage it deals is so spread. And since it's a long range weapon, most of this damage will be wasted.

2. Haven't' you heard? There is no ghost heat on (C-U)AC2. But guess what. It's still trash tier.
Because it is too hot. AC5 is 2.5 times cooler. And it deals 2.5 more concentrated damage.
You could drop AC2 heat to 0.5 points and I would still choose AC5.
AC2 needs to be cooler than AC5. 0.33 heat per shot. 6 damage per 1 point of heat.

Don't be afraid of a low-heat rapid fire AC. Yes, people will put them on medium, heavies and assaults. They will shoot them while being heat neutral. It will actually make the game more fun. More face time, more dakka, more brawling. Less laser vomit and hiding behind cover.



PS. I only use UAC5 on my Urbanmech. Because BANG-BANG 10 damage and I'm out of sight in a split second. Using AC2 it would take about 3,6 seconds and I would probably spread the damage all over the enemy mech.

Edited by Kmieciu, 27 August 2015 - 12:02 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

Kmieciu, on 26 August 2015 - 11:41 PM, said:

1. AC2 deserves even more damage per tonne of ammo than AC10, since the damage it deals is so spread. And since it's a long range weapon, most of this damage will be wasted.

2. Haven't' you heard? There is no ghost heat on (C-U)AC2. But guess what. It's still trash tier.
Because it is too hot. AC5 is 2.5 times cooler. And it deals 2.5 more concentrated damage.
You could drop AC2 heat to 0.5 points and I would still choose AC5.
AC2 needs to be cooler than AC5. 0.33 heat per shot. 6 damage per 1 point of heat.

Don't be afraid of a low-heat rapid fire AC. Yes, people will put them on medium, heavies and assaults. They will shoot them while being heat neutral. It will actually make the game more fun. More face time, more dakka, more brawling. Less laser vomit and hiding behind cover.

PS. I only use UAC5 on my Urbanmech. Because BANG-BANG 10 damage and I'm out of sight in a split second. Using AC2 it would take about 3,6 seconds and I would probably spread the damage all over the enemy mech.

1) So true that's it hurts. You nailed that one.

2) Yeah it needs to be cooler but it needs to have a much higher firerate too.
That 3.6 secs comparison you did with the UAC5 is another good way to prove that the AC2 is pretty much dead in the water.
I wish we had one AC2 shell every 0.25 sec. That way it could deliver 10 damage within 1.25 secs which happens to the same amount of time it takes an IS ER LL laser to do it's 9 damage.

If it was cooler to top it off that would be great, but ultimatly i want that high firerate so that it can compete with weapons in the same weightclass.

[Kmieciu]

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

That way it could deliver 10 damage within 1.25 secs which happens to the same amount of time it takes an IS ER LL laser to do it's 9 damage.

If it was cooler to top it off that would be great, but ultimatly i want that high firerate so that it can compete with weapons in the same weightclass.

To be fair, IS ERLL is pretty underpowered nowadays. The 25% longer beam duration compared to IS LL really hurts its effectiveness. Generally it's only used by quirked mechs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

At this point, anything to reduce HPS on the Class 2 Ballistics.

Just gotta sustain the DPS near ~2.80 as possible I suppose.

[Spleenslitta]

Kmieciu, on 27 August 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

To be fair, IS ERLL is pretty underpowered nowadays. The 25% longer beam duration compared to IS LL really hurts its effectiveness. Generally it's only used by quirked mechs.

You think so? Well regardless having an AC2 with 1 shell per 0.25 sec would be a lot better than it's current condition.
But i'm worried about it becoming too powerfull too.
If this new firerate is too powerfull there are only 3 ways to keep the AC2 from becoming overpowered.

1) Keep the heat the way it is right now. It becomes a weapon very much like an ER PPC. You shouldn't keep the trigger pressed down at all times.
2) Burst Fire Limitations.
3) FupDups idea.

Both 2) and 3) is explained in my original post with titles above the spoilerbuttons.

Praetor Knight, on 27 August 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

At this point, anything to reduce HPS on the Class 2 Ballistics.

Just gotta sustain the DPS near ~2.80 as possible I suppose.

Should i try to rework the AC2 in a different way so that it keeps a 2.80 DPS?
I'm afraid that's beyond my current brainpower. Even if it was completly heat neutral like the MG's it would still be a trash weapon i'm afraid.
Giving the AC2 bonus to internal structure damage or better crit chance would make it into a weapon that ain't an AC anymore so that's not an option either.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

Spleenslitta, on 27 August 2015 - 10:40 PM, said:

Should i try to rework the AC2 in a different way so that it keeps a 2.80 DPS?
I'm afraid that's beyond my current brainpower. Even if it was completly heat neutral like the MG's it would still be a trash weapon i'm afraid.

One set of potential values, from a three-shot burst, would equal a total of 6.00 damage with each shell registering 2 damage each. Going with the stock time of 0.14 between each projectile in a burst, the cooldown can be 1.72
DPS is 2.80 and HPS goes down to 0.47 with 1 Heat.