108 replies to this topic

[Cebi]

Nightshade24, on 08 May 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

you can get out of said range as easily as they can get it. Piloting skill is required here and it depends on the enemy chassis at hand, but typically it would be al ighter mech that would get in range and thus an easier opponent that can not deal as much damage to you at that range as you can in reverse.
Also I have not a single problem with the velocity on the PPC's, Only problems I got is to fast light mechs which I have issues hitting them in general due to things related to ping and fps on some maps.
And I did suggest switching it for large pulse lasers in the same comment and said it was a rough build to have the lose idea on the concept, so your issue with the med pulse and med las could be replaced by swapping all to medium pulse or all to med lasers.

Yes, but usually the ST is a less desirable place to hit unless it's already cored when everything else is fine, which only you yourself you can blame instead of the mech hitboxes, designs, or team. Being more protective over that side would also work to aid it. a technique called armour rolling helps immensely here.

the thing about clan XL is if the ST is gone you lose a lot of heat effeciency. You're basicly already dead after that happens in say the timberwolf design you posted, as the design is already a burning fernace to start with and then you got all the ST and arm heatsinks gone and 20% overall reduction I believe it was.

Also checked at overall firepower, well for damage to heat ratio it has a slight edge but general heat isn't and thus in a prolonged engagement the grasshopper will win, on top of that the grass hopper also has 2 direct pinpoint fire weapons while your build of the timberwolf doesn't. on top of that but due to the nature of the longer durration of clan lasers the longer- laser durration means the agile grasshopper can roll damage with greator ease. But it's reasonable close, but considering the fact the grasshopper is 5 tons lighter and IS got 10 tons more to work with...

Can do 3 grasshoppers and a 40 ton or less mech or 2 grasshoppers and an assault and light/ medium of choice.
however you can only do 2 timberwolfs with two dead weight mediums/ lights or 1 deadweight light and another hot mech as a medium.

Potential what may I ask? firing all lasers at the same time doesn't give you an advantage nore does holding back a pulse laser a few seconds later for the normal one to catch up unless you are suffering heat issues.

...

If you can't see that PPCs have serious disadvantages on non-velocity quirked mechs then I really can't help you.

Go ahead and switch the build to ML and LPL. You will find you run out of space fast, and you still end up doing significantly less damage and at shorter range than the timber. You will probably end up dropping endo and taking an even slower engine. Yay.

Urgh if you aren't taking damage on those side torsos then you are taking it to the CT. It simply isn't as resilient as a timber, this is not up for discussion.

With an IS XL you ARE dead when you lose that side torso... come on it isn't hard to see the discrepancy here.

You say yourself that the timber has a better damage to heat ratio. Longer engagement time is a DISADVANTAGE when talking about this ratio.

Two direct fire weapons that can be countered by moving the timber within 90m, or far enough away to dodge the slow projectiles and reply with full damage, and higher alpha weaponary. The timber has the better speed and agility to dictate this range.

OK why do you think IS get 10 extra tons? Do you think that its possibly for balance? And why would that be, maybe because the top performing clan mechs are better than their IS counterparts? By the way those weren't actual questions....

"firing all lasers at the same time doesn't give you an advantage" - we obviously don't play the same game, or at least don't play it on the same level.

I think that last quote sums this whole discussion up. Apparently you aren't a player who is into optimisation, which is also evident from your builds, and that's cool, but I'm really into it, and that's my thing. Each to their own.

Enjoy the game, hope to see you on the battlefield sometime.

[Nightshade24]

Cebi, on 08 May 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

If you can't see that PPCs have serious disadvantages on non-velocity quirked mechs then I really can't help you.

Go ahead and switch the build to ML and LPL. You will find you run out of space fast, and you still end up doing significantly less damage and at shorter range than the timber. You will probably end up dropping endo and taking an even slower engine. Yay.

Urgh if you aren't taking damage on those side torsos then you are taking it to the CT. It simply isn't as resilient as a timber, this is not up for discussion.

With an IS XL you ARE dead when you lose that side torso... come on it isn't hard to see the discrepancy here.

You say yourself that the timber has a better damage to heat ratio. Longer engagement time is a DISADVANTAGE when talking about this ratio.

Two direct fire weapons that can be countered by moving the timber within 90m, or far enough away to dodge the slow projectiles and reply with full damage, and higher alpha weaponary. The timber has the better speed and agility to dictate this range.

OK why do you think IS get 10 extra tons? Do you think that its possibly for balance? And why would that be, maybe because the top performing clan mechs are better than their IS counterparts? By the way those weren't actual questions....

"firing all lasers at the same time doesn't give you an advantage" - we obviously don't play the same game, or at least don't play it on the same level.

I think that last quote sums this whole discussion up. Apparently you aren't a player who is into optimisation, which is also evident from your builds, and that's cool, but I'm really into it, and that's my thing. Each to their own.

Enjoy the game, hope to see you on the battlefield sometime.

1) if you can't aim with non velocity PPC's then I can't really say much to you. I can hit enemies perfectly fine with them.

2) GHR-5H New build created, nearly matches your timberwolfs firepower, does more firpeower then standard meta timberwolf, and also has an extremely higher heat effeciency over your timberwolf and thus higher damage to heat ratio post quirks and due to the fact it has 3 no ghost heat large pulse lasers on it, you can actually out damage a timberwolf in a few slithers of ranges for better heat.

3) And the CT has the most armour out of most components and also has a quick for additional structure. Also you forgot about the arms which would also take damage. (and arms got an armour quirk on this chap last time I remembered)

4) not much to say at this point, you're quite hard set on thinking clan XL has not a single disadvantage over a IS XL. Your choice, your opinion. I would rather not talk about this point anymore.

5) I said your build, but compaired to mine it overheats sooner and now to my new design much sooner, the first build I posted had lower heat weapons with slightly less damage which could keep it in the fight longer.

6) Because PGI fails at ballancing. Ironicly it should be clans that get extra tonnage. How many direwolfs, warhawks, or gargoyels you see in CW? The tukayyid event has pretty much summed up that there is less clan assaults then there are grasshoppers IN GENERAL. You also forget that "PGI ballancing" destroyed practically all but 2 Clan mechs and left a few ECM carriers for simply team work reasons and not the mech itself. how often do you see a mist lynx? direwolf? Nova? Summoner? how often do you see it pose a threat or how often do you see it in the form of not being a trial?

Sad thign is I can put every IS mech on the dart board and randomly throw a dart blind folded and hit a mech that i have at least a 50% chance in seeing in the next match.
Why do you think hundreds of players complain about clans being poor overall? why do you think that 10% of the game population was clanners at the very start of Tukayyid event and took PGI to not only ASK (beg) other people to play clans but also to demolish penalties for switching factions and bribe them into playing clan.
Why do you think o nthe previous event clans lost over 40 planets?

The 10 ton difference is just a temporary patch that didn't solve the whole problem of CW. From one of the first dev videos or what ever the yare called now they pretty much admitted that nearly all of them are IS fans.

how do you think a thunderbolt manage to be passed with 20% veloctiy to eR PPC and 50% heat reduction to ER PPC but a mist lynx barely crawls out of the quirkening with a 2% machine gun range and 4% less missile spread.

Why haven't we seen summoners get 50% quirks on the first pass? they are worse then a thunderbolt in every way (and this is compairing to a thunderbolt WITHOUT quirks) and the thunderbolt back then was slightly better then the worst IS mechs at the time.

I'm sorry but when you mention things like these ballancings as evidence then there is a whole flood gate out there or reasons why that is incorrect.

8) I play MW: O in both CW and normal matches at a mid/high elo. regularlly seeing people on the leaderboreds in my pug matches in the normal game modes and every so often winning against units like 228's and such. (not saying it's a 100% win rate against them... there 12 man stalker 4N premade teams sure do have ways to make games a 48 kills for under 5 deaths...) Also the Clans have a disadvantage here as all er small, medium, pulse small, meidum lasers are linked ghost heat. You can have hunchback running around with 9 small pulse lasers but we can't have a nova with over 6 of them in a single strike due to a thing called ghost heat.

9) and care to define what your optimisation means? from what I seen it's only personal opinions about yourself which is okay. No problem with that at all. You play the game how it best suits you. reguardless of Elo , game mode, etc. But I consider mix weapons or mix ranges just as usefull as deticated x ranges. (keep in mind, those 'optimisation' builds at certain ranges are often considered poor due to things like "I can't hit anything outside 270 meters in my atlas, this mech is ****" or "god damn it terra therma again, I hate this map" even though you willingly take a very hot mech with no back up weapons and instead of trying to be smart about it you go to the hottest part of the map. (not saying you do these things, these are common things by both IS and Clan players on this 'optimisation' top.)

Yep, hope to see you around as well. o7

7)

[Cebi]

Nightshade24, on 08 May 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

2) GHR-5H New build created, nearly matches your timberwolfs firepower, does more firpeower then standard meta timberwolf, and also has an extremely higher heat effeciency over your timberwolf and thus higher damage to heat ratio post quirks and due to the fact it has 3 no ghost heat large pulse lasers on it, you can actually out damage a timberwolf in a few slithers of ranges for better heat.

Significantly slower than the timber, still has less firepower (not by much), heat isn't great but quirks will help, range is still inferior, and no JJs. And the IS XL is still a liability. You are right about it being a bit better at around 450m, but the lack of JJs and slower speed will allow the timber to dictate ranges. This build is much better optimised now though!

Concerning the heat: you are getting a 12.5% quirk. It's going to bridge the gap between 26% and the timber's 33% but it is far from "extremely higher heat efficiency".

Much better build but still not up to timber levels.

Dude, clan XL is flat out superior to IS XL. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. Same weight, less crit space, doesn't die to side torso loss. The IS XL has no advantages over it.

My point about tonnage still stands: Russ did implement it to balance win ratio of Clan vs IS in CW. Matter of fact, not opinion. But I do agree that both sides have some really subpar mechs outshone by vastly superior chassis. This is a balance problem, one that I have faith PGI will slowly tweak.

High pinpoint alpha is much better for taking out components/mechs than spreading chain fire all over your opponents. It also allows you to roll damage in between salvos.

Two mechs can do the same damage before they hit heat cap: mech A does 120 damage and hits caps in 10s, mech A does 120 damage and hits cap in 15s. Mech A is superior because it can now retreat/reposition to cool down and thus has less face time and will take less damage.

[Escef]

Carrioncrows, on 05 May 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

But you can't keep the CT alive...it's like the Kintaro fiasco all over again.

No, YOU can't keep the CT alive. Others can. Just throw in a big XL and load it down with MPLs and heat sinks, you'll be fine.

Cebi, on 09 May 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

Significantly slower than the timber,...

5.1 kph is "significant"?

[Nightshade24]

Cebi, on 09 May 2015 - 02:16 AM, said:

Significantly slower than the timber, still has less firepower (not by much), heat isn't great but quirks will help, range is still inferior, and no JJs. And the IS XL is still a liability. You are right about it being a bit better at around 450m, but the lack of JJs and slower speed will allow the timber to dictate ranges. This build is much better optimised now though!

Concerning the heat: you are getting a 12.5% quirk. It's going to bridge the gap between 26% and the timber's 33% but it is far from "extremely higher heat efficiency".

Much better build but still not up to timber levels.

Dude, clan XL is flat out superior to IS XL. This is a matter of fact, not opinion. Same weight, less crit space, doesn't die to side torso loss. The IS XL has no advantages over it.

My point about tonnage still stands: Russ did implement it to balance win ratio of Clan vs IS in CW. Matter of fact, not opinion. But I do agree that both sides have some really subpar mechs outshone by vastly superior chassis. This is a balance problem, one that I have faith PGI will slowly tweak.

High pinpoint alpha is much better for taking out components/mechs than spreading chain fire all over your opponents. It also allows you to roll damage in between salvos.

Two mechs can do the same damage before they hit heat cap: mech A does 120 damage and hits caps in 10s, mech A does 120 damage and hits cap in 15s. Mech A is superior because it can now retreat/reposition to cool down and thus has less face time and will take less damage.

The quirks mathematically bumps this up to a 35%, granted I derped first time around with math assuming large pulse = 25% for quirks for a bit ^^; I thought it was around 42% at first but 35% is still good. Especially considering it has 3 Large pulse lasers instead of 2.

Also a few problems with Clan XL's is that there hardwiring makes them unable to be changed... for instance I wouldn't mind going to a 375 I wouldn't mind dropping to a 350 or a 300...

Switching to a 300 would make me have 11 more tons to work with in exchange for my mind to much speed. I was gonna post the builds I would use in a timberwolf with a XL 300 but they are not meta and would assume you would poke at that as evidence I'm a low elo noob ^^
personally I think the 375 is too high. wouldn't mind lowering it to a 350 or 300. The other problem with the XL is it's less durable over a Standard, and if I had a timberwolf with a standard 300 for eg... I would be able to mount duel torso Gauss rifles and duel large pulse. It's not as much as the engine itself that's the problem but the hardwiring with it.
1 major problem with clan battlemechs, no omnipods, no hardwiring, and options of clan XL or Standards... able to make the Bane for eg with 12 mg's and 2 Gauss (I like this build due to the fact that the 12 mg's do over 10 damage pinpoint per second for 0 heat)
I can agree that on paper, Clans got better engine, but in action, it limits builds and creates problems like not using all there heatsink slots, or having it to big (summoner, timberwolf, gargoyle, etc) or to small (kitfox, mist lynx, adder, direwolf, etc).


Also the reason why there was a win ratio was due to the common CW bug that they only discovered after the IS was seal clubbing clans (one reason people think PGI's biased as I mentioned before.)
however may I ask what mecsh you find sumpar? considering I own 150 mechs and only 30 or less is clan and the fact I do not consider any IS mech to bad besides under-quirked mechs like the jenner I am interested here. (something tells me they will be my favourite mechs xD)

The high alpha pinpoint damage is what ya mean by optimization eh? well I guesss it's to each there own, there is the fact that chain firing other weapons leads to rocking the enemy so much they can't even aim or simply suppressing them down. One of the beauties of battletech, quite a lot of ways to play a mech and combat. Not many is right or wrong, just different.

Well what happens if mech A can not retreat/ reposition? What if it's the last enemy alive and there is no chance to lose attention or is on the boarders or near a semi open area? What if mech B is the same speed or only 10-20 kph slower (which isn't that much in the first 10 or 20 seconds of running away, that could be still within say an AC 20 range depending on initial)
or the enemy mech has jumpjets and can cover the same area you do faster. or an enemy mech is at the area you were gonna hide.

In a sustained fight, mech B would be superior. no? If only things in practice were as simple as it was on paper eh?

(PS: you said mech A only, never stated mech

[Cebi]

Nightshade24, on 09 May 2015 - 03:20 AM, said:

The quirks mathematically bumps this up to a 35%, granted I derped first time around with math assuming large pulse = 25% for quirks for a bit ^^; I thought it was around 42% at first but 35% is still good. Especially considering it has 3 Large pulse lasers instead of 2.

Also a few problems with Clan XL's is that there hardwiring makes them unable to be changed... for instance I wouldn't mind going to a 375 I wouldn't mind dropping to a 350 or a 300...

Switching to a 300 would make me have 11 more tons to work with in exchange for my mind to much speed. I was gonna post the builds I would use in a timberwolf with a XL 300 but they are not meta and would assume you would poke at that as evidence I'm a low elo noob ^^
personally I think the 375 is too high. wouldn't mind lowering it to a 350 or 300. The other problem with the XL is it's less durable over a Standard, and if I had a timberwolf with a standard 300 for eg... I would be able to mount duel torso Gauss rifles and duel large pulse. It's not as much as the engine itself that's the problem but the hardwiring with it.
1 major problem with clan battlemechs, no omnipods, no hardwiring, and options of clan XL or Standards... able to make the Bane for eg with 12 mg's and 2 Gauss (I like this build due to the fact that the 12 mg's do over 10 damage pinpoint per second for 0 heat)
I can agree that on paper, Clans got better engine, but in action, it limits builds and creates problems like not using all there heatsink slots, or having it to big (summoner, timberwolf, gargoyle, etc) or to small (kitfox, mist lynx, adder, direwolf, etc).


Also the reason why there was a win ratio was due to the common CW bug that they only discovered after the IS was seal clubbing clans (one reason people think PGI's biased as I mentioned before.)
however may I ask what mecsh you find sumpar? considering I own 150 mechs and only 30 or less is clan and the fact I do not consider any IS mech to bad besides under-quirked mechs like the jenner I am interested here. (something tells me they will be my favourite mechs xD)

The high alpha pinpoint damage is what ya mean by optimization eh? well I guesss it's to each there own, there is the fact that chain firing other weapons leads to rocking the enemy so much they can't even aim or simply suppressing them down. One of the beauties of battletech, quite a lot of ways to play a mech and combat. Not many is right or wrong, just different.

Well what happens if mech A can not retreat/ reposition? What if it's the last enemy alive and there is no chance to lose attention or is on the boarders or near a semi open area? What if mech B is the same speed or only 10-20 kph slower (which isn't that much in the first 10 or 20 seconds of running away, that could be still within say an AC 20 range depending on initial)
or the enemy mech has jumpjets and can cover the same area you do faster. or an enemy mech is at the area you were gonna hide.

In a sustained fight, mech B would be superior. no? If only things in practice were as simple as it was on paper eh?

(PS: you said mech A only, never stated mech

So the build is 2% more heat efficient than the timber, whilst doing 6% less damage...

Hardwiring is not due to being a clan XL, that is due to the timber being an omnimech. IS also have omnimechs and will be stuck with the IS XL/IS Std.

Switching to 300 will drop you to 76.4 kph... not even in the same ballpark as the timber at that point.

Not going to accuse you of having a low Elo, I don't know. You could be a fantastic player who can play well despite suboptimal builds and methodology.

Only advantage of standard engine over clan XL is less crit space for double tonnage, and the ability to zombie. The timber wouldn't make a very good zombie.

Lasers don't rock opponent cockpit. But yes in certain circumstances it can be advantageous to chain fire ballistics.

List of subpar mechs is far too long... Doesn't mean I, and others, can't perform well in them, just that there are far better choices.

Even if mech A can't retreat he can still focus on repositioning and twisting. Mech B would never be superior; he has the same heat/damage ratio but takes longer to reach cap. This does not mean he can do more damage over time. They both do the same.

Edited by Cebi, 09 May 2015 - 03:47 AM.

[Nightshade24]

TBR-A

Rough build if the timberwolf had XL 300. The armour is meant to be max, it's just substituting for the less weight of the XL 300, the empty spaces are where the 4th and 5th heatsink will go for the downgrade and XL 300. and eg of non-hardwired engines

[Nightshade24]

Cebi, on 09 May 2015 - 03:45 AM, said:

So the build is 2% more heat efficient than the timber, whilst doing 6% less damage...

Hardwiring is not due to being a clan XL, that is due to the timber being an omnimech. IS also have omnimechs and will be stuck with the IS XL/IS Std.

Switching to 300 will drop you to 76.4 kph... not even in the same ballpark as the timber at that point.

Not going to accuse you of having a low Elo, I don't know. You could be a fantastic player who can play well despite suboptimal builds and methodology.

Only advantage of standard engine over clan XL is less crit space for double tonnage, and the ability to zombie. The timber wouldn't make a very good zombie.

Lasers don't rock opponent cockpit. But yes in certain circumstances it can be advantageous to chain fire ballistics.

List of subpar mechs is far too long... Doesn't mean I, and others, can't perform well in them, just that there are far better choices.

Even if mech A can't retreat he can still focus on repositioning and twisting. Mech B would never be superior; he has the same heat/damage ratio but takes longer to reach cap. This does not mean he can do more damage over time. They both do the same.

The percentages are different on other maps and such and depends on the environmental features. (note: environmental features will be more common after map overhauls)

I am aware, but IS have no omnis in games and Clans got no Battlemechs in games. Thus any ballance of clan Xl's should also reflect on the hardwiring itself and effects on all mechs using said engines. and simular in vice versa.



and thanks ^^; I guess? it's not optimised by your standards, but it could be optimized for mine for the said role and playstyle of it.

weeeell the CT does have the ability to have a ER Medium laser. Which most IS players complain is like a IS large laser.
Better at zombying then say a centurion (unless it's duel medium pulse...)


I know lasers do not cause rocking. just meant in general excluding lasers.

Depending on the skills of the pilots, those twisting could prove to no avail, there are always times where a mech twists, rolles, and turns to mess up damage, but you just wait for a golden window of timing to hit him right in the CT (or where ever you wanted to hit). Quite hilarious killing a Centurion rolling and using his shield arm and you hit his CT from his approximate side. (Also the lower torso normally is easy place to hit the CT, so theoretically on most mechs you have always a 100% window to hit the CT).

We should really have a game some time. (I just worry that my common problems with expectations occur. I always have the worst luck in all games and such that I am for eg: infront of a person who is going to have first impressions/ high expectations, or on video, etc... Something tells me I will mess horribly up on our first games. )

Not saying that this discussion is pointless, but I do not think we can add to much more to this discussion and these wall of texts are kiiiiiiiiiinda using up a lot of time. ^^;

[Cebi]

Nightshade24, on 09 May 2015 - 03:48 AM, said:

TBR-A

Rough build if the timberwolf had XL 300. The armour is meant to be max, it's just substituting for the less weight of the XL 300, the empty spaces are where the 4th and 5th heatsink will go for the downgrade and XL 300. and eg of non-hardwired engines

Ok, so you want to run around at 71.3 kph with what I assume is an IS XL now that you are ignoring omni rules? Not only are you slow you will make your side torso very easy to focus down = dead frankentimber. Or they just shoot out your guass = instant death 90% roll... that is unless you want to keep the weight and crit free case that comes with omnimechs.

Yeah best thing about this game is you can build and play however you like, so much customisation!

Yeah zombie gameplay is pretty bad for all mechs. If we had the choice of a clan XL in IS mechs you would very rarely see a standard build.

The difference is that mech A needs fewer of those perfect windows to get his damage down range than mech B.

I'm definitely up for dropping together some time! Will add you when I'm next online. Don't worry, not going to judge you on just a few unlucky games, and vice-versa I hope!