105 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Because it's fall from grace has exactly ZERO to do with size. It was the same size when it WAS the Medium Meta.

It has to do with 2 factors, neither of which rescaling will help:
1) StormCrow
2) Quirks

Stormcrow took it's lunch money as the unchallenged Medium MetaKing. Period. End of story. But because of the SHDs previous position in the food chain, when Quirks were handed out, it got jack crap, whilst almost everything around it got at least something over quirked to allow them to at least be super effective specialists.

Scaling? Not even an issue, and in fact, it's height is in fact very useful when combined with those shoulder hardpoints. That Height allows it to shoot over things and teammates that a shorter Shawk could not.

The mech is a fantastic generalist, with one of the tankiest hitboxes in the game....handicapped by this game being dominated by specialists.

If your concern is returning the SHD back to tier 1 glory, could we focus on the actual problems?

Which come down to quirks, not scale. As Quirks currently stand, the SHD simply needs to be better quirked. Or, a better thing for the game in general, is in this upcoming "global balance change" that PGI is claiming, that Nerfs in general get turned back. WAY back.

Anyhow, vote as you choose, but just understand what you are actually trying to accomplish and voting for. Resizing the Shadowhawk really won't do a dang thing to help it.

Cheers.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 04 July 2015 - 02:08 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 02:04 PM, said:

Because it's fall from grace has exactly ZERO to do with size. It was the same size when it WAS the Medium Meta.

It has to do with 2 factors, neither of which rescaling will help:
1) StormCrow
2) Quirks

Stormcrow took it's lunch money as the unchallenged Medium MetaKing. Period. End of story. But because of the SHDs previous position in the food chain, when Quirks were handed out, it got jack crap, whilst almost everything around it got at least something over quirked to allow them to at least be super effective specialists.

Scaling? Not even an issue, and in fact, it's height is in fact very useful when combined with those shoulder hardpoints. That Height allows it to shoot over things and teammates that a shorter Shawk could not.

The mech is a fantastic generalist, with one of the tankiest hitboxes in the game....handicapped by this game being dominated by specialists.

If your concern is returning the SHD back to tier 1 glory, could we focus on the actual problems?

Which come down to quirks, not scale. As Quirks currently stand, the SHD simply needs to be better quirked. Or, a better thing for the game in general, is in this upcoming "global balance change" that PGI is claiming, that Nerfs in general get turned back. WAY back.

Anyhow, vote as you choose, but just understand what you are actually trying to accomplish and voting for. Resizing the Shadowhawk really won't do a dang thing to help it.

Cheers.

Yup. Right from the Shadowhawk's release, [Redacted] complained that is was too tall, and that that was somehow a problem.

Height is not a problem. Nobody ever misses mechs because they accidentally shoot over top of them; not even locusts. The natural reticle height with a level torso as people move around is pretty center mass on most mechs, and is low even to still hit short lights. People miss mechs because they miss to the sides.

While height does mean some terrain is less effective cover, it also means other terrain that would be too tall to fire over isn't anymore. When you've got shoulder mounts like the Shadowhawk does, height is a great thing: you can safely fire over friendly mechs, as well as terrain.

Why the shadowhawk was so good was those shoulder hardpoints, coupled with a very slight, narrow torso. With a narrow torso, your torso hitbox segments are narrow too allowing you to run an XL safely if you like, and to spread damage between the hitboxes easily.

The only reason it's not a great mech now, is as Bishop said: Quirks. Rather, the lack thereof.

Edited by Rhazien, 06 July 2015 - 01:58 AM.
Language

[Tennex]

But it is still oversized, and should be scaled correctly. People keep using scaling as a way to balance. It really shouldn't be, scale should only be correct based on tonnage.

Once the scale is correct, it is easier to make balance changes, because we've eliminated another variable

For the sciency types; The scaling should be a constant

Edited by Tennex, 04 July 2015 - 04:06 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Tennex, on 04 July 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

But it is still oversized, and should be scaled correctly. People keep using scaling as a way to balance. It really shouldn't be, scale should only be correct based on tonnage.

Once the scale is correct, it is easier to make balance changes, because we've eliminated another variable

For the sciency types; The scaling should be a constant

So... It should be rescaled before mechs that actually NEED it. That makes a lot of sense.

Mechs should be able to raise their arms to, in an ideal world. Just saying

[Tennex]

Bishop Steiner, on 04 July 2015 - 04:33 PM, said:

So... It should be rescaled before mechs that actually NEED it. That makes a lot of sense.

Mechs should be able to raise their arms to, in an ideal world. Just saying

I mean IDK how to say which mech needs it more. But the problem is that ppl think scaling is a balancing mechanism, so they will pick their favorite mechs to be shrunk.

Ideally the shadowhawk, griffon, trebby, centurion would have the same priority to be shrunk because they are misscaled by the same amount but ppl will always pick their favorites

Edited by Tennex, 04 July 2015 - 04:40 PM.

[Deathlike]

The mechs that need rescaling the most are those that are least loved (or more accurately, those that are taken rarely aka unicorns).

Shadowhawks are not one of them (they need to be rescaled despite that), and suffer mostly from not being up to par on the quirk front.

Mechs like the Awesome, Trebuchet, and Quickdraw SHOULD be prime candidates, and not the already popular ones.

Eventually every mech that needs it will get a turn, but still... we should focus on mechs that the community at large knows need THE MOST HELP.

Edited by Deathlike, 04 July 2015 - 04:56 PM.

[LordBraxton]

1- Height is not an advantage. Just find smaller cover to peek over. Its easier to find shorter cover than taller cover.


2- Shadowhawk does not need a rescale, and even if it did it is SO far behind the long list of mechs that REALLY need a rescale I was shocked to see this even come up in discussion.

[Wintersdark]

Tennex, on 04 July 2015 - 04:06 PM, said:

But it is still oversized, and should be scaled correctly. People keep using scaling as a way to balance. It really shouldn't be, scale should only be correct based on tonnage.

Once the scale is correct, it is easier to make balance changes, because we've eliminated another variable

For the sciency types; The scaling should be a constant

Scaling should be consistent, but it's also extremely variable because mechs have such totally different shapes. They're modelled based on the concept art, and the concept art is based on the original drawings and models, which have sizes and shapes that are wholly stupid.


But here's the reality:

1) We have what we have.

2) Scaling is, in some cases, a critical aspect of balance. Well, rather, geometry is; scaling amplifies or minimizes geometry issues.

3) They're not rescaling everything, only 5 mechs. They MAY do more, but don't count on it. In my experience, these sorts of projects tend to peter out quick, so only the biggest offenders get fixed.

4) The Shadowhawk may be larger than it should be, but that in no way negatively affects it. It is, for all intents and purposes, and asthetic issue.

Given that there are mechs that have severe problems due to their scaling, that would be corrected by adjusting scaling, it stands to reason that we should focus on those mechs first.

[Wintersdark]

Tennex, on 04 July 2015 - 04:36 PM, said:

I mean IDK how to say which mech needs it more. But the problem is that ppl think scaling is a balancing mechanism, so they will pick their favorite mechs to be shrunk.

Some people can be reasonable adults and pick the mechs that actually have problems as a result of their size.

Look at the votes. People are clearly not voting to make their favourite mechs better, as the ones leading the pack are the ones with the most severe issues.

Quote

Ideally the shadowhawk, griffon, trebby, centurion would have the same priority to be shrunk because they are misscaled by the same amount but ppl will always pick their favorites

No. Priority to adjust scaling, because we can't "simply" rescale everything at once, must be assigned by need. Not by asthetics, but considering the mechs that suffer most from their size and shape.

The Shadowhawk should be smaller. So should the Awesome. The Shadowhawk, however, does not suffer for it's size at all due to it's profile. The Awesome, however, having a barn-door profile, suffers horrifically. Note the massive quirks the Awesome has, and yet is still an objectively worse mech than the relatively unquirked Shadowhawk.

Thus, the Awesome needs work more than the Shadowhawk.

Am I an Awesome pilot? No. Full disclosure: I do own two, but then, I own a couple of (almost!) every mech in the game. I'm definitely in no way an awesome pilot. I have 5 Shadowhawks, and I actually LOVE Shadowhawks. Yet you don't see me voting for them.

Deathlike, on 04 July 2015 - 04:56 PM, said:

The mechs that need rescaling the most are those that are least loved (or more accurately, those that are taken rarely aka unicorns).

Shadowhawks are not one of them (they need to be rescaled despite that), and suffer mostly from not being up to par on the quirk front.

Mechs like the Awesome, Trebuchet, and Quickdraw SHOULD be prime candidates, and not the already popular ones.

Eventually every mech that needs it will get a turn, but still... we should focus on mechs that the community at large knows need THE MOST HELP.

This, all of this.

Though I'll point out, as I said above, that we don't know that every mech that needs it will get a turn. We *hope* they will, and to be fair to PGI they've been doing so much better lately, but I'd be unsurprised to see only these 5 get adjusted.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 05:01 PM, said:

3) They're not rescaling everything, only 5 mechs. They MAY do more, but don't count on it. In my experience, these sorts of projects tend to peter out quick, so only the biggest offenders get fixed.

That is my greatest fear.

I said sometime before that sales would benefit from this. I think this is not so much the case.. generally due to the stagnant playerbase.

I think the problem now though is that even if you did rescale it, it wouldn't solve other issues (aka quirks) that may or may not be necessary... relative to the adjustments (requirkening is likely need as a result).

I just think had PGI "gotten it right the first time", it would be beneficial for them long term.

I doubt people are streaming to buy more mechs because the worst ones are fixed. If anything, a fair number already have the mech in their mechbay... waiting to see more of them fixed and eventually in action.

Even now, I don't think the Pretty Baby would get a turn at the wheel due to its current hardpoint situation... even after its "makeover".

Edited by Deathlike, 04 July 2015 - 05:32 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 04 July 2015 - 05:30 PM, said:

That is my greatest fear.

I said sometime before that sales would benefit from this.

I think the problem now though is that even if you did rescale it, it wouldn't solve other issues (aka quirks) that may or may not be necessary... relative to the adjustments (requirkening is likely need as a result).

I just think had PGI "gotten it right the first time", it would be beneficial for them long term.

I doubt people are streaming to buy more mechs because the worst ones are fixed. If anything, a fair number already have the mech in their mechbay... waiting to see more of them in action.

Even now, I don't think the Pretty Baby would get a turn at the wheel due to its current hardpoint situation... even if its hitboxes were addressed.

Yeah, there are mechs that simply aren't going to be good without actual physical changes, be it more hardpoints (PB, for example) or something else extreme.

You'd need quirks of as of yet unheard of power to make those mechs good - and you wouldn't make them good, you'd make them very, very gimmicky.

Quote

I just think had PGI "gotten it right the first time", it would be beneficial for them long term.

That's a long, dark and scary road right there. Lets not go there.

Edited by Wintersdark, 04 July 2015 - 05:34 PM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 05:32 PM, said:

That's a long, dark and scary road right there. Lets not go there.

That dream died Sept 2013.

That Beta shield excuse ended and now we're reaping the repercussions.

I'm here along for the ride.

[Chemie]

Shadowhawk being as tall as an Atlas makes no sense

[FatYak]

I can handle the size, but unless i run it as a splat build, it out outgunned by pretty much everything, the enforcer carries more firepower.

It hasn't been really meta since poptarts

[Wintersdark]

Chemie, on 04 July 2015 - 05:49 PM, said:

Shadowhawk being as tall as an Atlas makes no sense

I do think the Shadowhawk is taller than it should be lore wise, but I'll interject:

The Shadowhawk is less than half the volume of the Atlas, but at the same height. As it's a 55t mech, that... kinda works out.

Regardless, it's an aesthetic problem, not a balance one. The Shadowhawks present day issues are entirely due to it being skipped by the quirk fairy. Deal with aesthetic problems after the important ones are fixed.

[Wintersdark]

FatYak, on 04 July 2015 - 06:12 PM, said:

I can handle the size, but unless i run it as a splat build, it out outgunned by pretty much everything, the enforcer carries more firepower.

Quirks. The Shadowhawk is (variant depending) perfectly well gunned, but everything else has stacks of quirks and the Shadowhawk, being the T1 medium at the time of the Quirkening, got squat.

Quote

It hasn't been really meta since poptarts

It lost it's spot with the advent of the Stormcrow, which was simply better. It was still a very good medium, though, and a solid #2. When PPC's got nerfed, and the AC5/PPC builds were no longer dominant, the Shadowhawk lost a lot as it was a solid platform for that. Then, as I said, the Quirkening. Giving all the other mediums massive bonuses to weapon cooldowns, heat generation and range, while poking the Shadowhawk in the cockpit was the nail in the coffin.

None of that relates to it's size.

[FupDup]

I'm going to have to comment that being tall does NOT help with hill poking. By that logic, Gargoyles and Atlases would be amazing at hill humping, while the tiny-sized Locusts and Jenners would be terrible at it. But in reality, it's the other way around.

A mech's ridge-humping effectiveness isn't about raw height, it's about the distance BETWEEN the hardpoints and the cockpit. The closer to the cockpit the mounts are, the better the poking ability. When hardpoints are located very far below the cockpit, that makes a mech crappy at hill-humping, no matter how tall or short the whole package is.

[Wintersdark]

FupDup, on 04 July 2015 - 06:24 PM, said:

I'm going to have to comment that being tall does NOT help with hill poking. By that logic, Gargoyles and Atlases would be amazing at hill humping, while the tiny-sized Locusts and Jenners would be terrible at it. But in reality, it's the other way around.

A mech's ridge-humping effectiveness isn't about raw height, it's about the distance BETWEEN the hardpoints and the cockpit. The closer to the cockpit the mounts are, the better the poking ability. When hardpoints are located very far below the cockpit, that makes a mech crappy at hill-humping, no matter how tall or short the whole package is.

Did someone say that height made a mech better at hill humping? I missed that.

I already commented that the shoulder hardpoints are what make it great at shooting over terrain, and the height makes it better at firing over friendly mechs and other cover that shorter mechs can't fire over. It opens options, rather than having everyone trying to crowd around one lower bit of cover.

After all, there's a hell of a lot more out there than just hills to hump =)

[FatYak]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 06:20 PM, said:

Quirks. The Shadowhawk is (variant depending) perfectly well gunned, but everything else has stacks of quirks and the Shadowhawk, being the T1 medium at the time of the Quirkening, got squat.


It lost it's spot with the advent of the Stormcrow, which was simply better. It was still a very good medium, though, and a solid #2. When PPC's got nerfed, and the AC5/PPC builds were no longer dominant, the Shadowhawk lost a lot as it was a solid platform for that. Then, as I said, the Quirkening. Giving all the other mediums massive bonuses to weapon cooldowns, heat generation and range, while poking the Shadowhawk in the cockpit was the nail in the coffin.

None of that relates to it's size.

agree with everything here.

I really miss that dual ac2 build, it was a great machine before the ac2 got nerfed to dust

id run an uac5, but im one of these people where it repeatedly jams on the first shot so it not real good, leave me with ac10's and not much of anything else

Edited by FatYak, 04 July 2015 - 06:43 PM.

[Deathlike]

Wintersdark, on 04 July 2015 - 06:26 PM, said:

Did someone say that height made a mech better at hill humping? I missed that.

Well, the hill humping is needed to relieve tension from carrying people.