63 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Crotch RockIt, on 11 May 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

How is this: GAR-D

worse than this: NVA-PRIME


Same speed. Same firepower. Same gorilla arms. The Nova has JJ, but Gargles has 6 more DHS and a lot more armor. Seems like Mr. Gargles is the better laser boat to me. The Nova may be a better CW mech due to 30 tons less dropship tonnage, but Gargles is a better mech overall.

Same speed, similar agility, but the JJs are the difference in that regard. Useful in some situations. Also allows it to shoot earlier, as you can jump and shoot, while Mr Gargles is groundbound, with equally terrible arm mounts.


21 difference in arm structure, enough to be noticeable. One more alpha to remove.

Legs can be up to 110 on Mr Gargles (if you take the +8 A legs) to the Nova's 88. Again, an additional alpha.


Gargles is taller, while Nova has the beak (which takes more CT fire). Neither are known for being durable robots, even after those generous IS+A quirks.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

So yeah, as I said. Keep lamenting this mech - it's still the best 80 tonner in the game.

If you gave me a choice and told me I could only play one 80 Tonner, I would choose the Gargoyle with it's "terribad" construction over the Victor, Zeus or Awesome right now in the current game.

It might be the best 80 tonner, but that's a really low bar to be set.

I mean, the Awesome has held "worst 80 tonner" for a while too, but that doesn't surprise anyone either.

Crotch RockIt, on 11 May 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

How is this: GAR-D

worse than this: NVA-PRIME


Same speed. Same firepower. Same gorilla arms. The Nova has JJ, but Gargles has 6 more DHS and a lot more armor. Seems like Mr. Gargles is the better laser boat to me. The Nova may be a better CW mech due to 30 tons less dropship tonnage, but Gargles is a better mech overall.

The Nova is better than the Gargles. It's actually sad, but true.

Just ignoring the tonnage gap for a bit (and corresponding durability difference between a 50 and 80 tonner), the Nova has a lot more overall agility than the Gargles... well, through JJs. I made the mistake selling the Nova-S, but it does have the best quirked torso twist boost (compared to the alternatives - who would have thought the AMS variant gets the most torso twist? - I wished I hadn't sold it had I know that would happen). The Gargles doesn't need it... rather it needs all the torso twist radius it can get (when you compare it to the Timberwolf and to a lesser extent, the Hellbringer, it needs something to make up for all of its deficiencies).

I'll take my chances with the Nova over the Gargles... and that's despite my love for the Gargles.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 May 2015 - 10:09 AM.

[Scout Derek]

Knyx, on 11 May 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

No I don't see how it is a bad idea. I agree the warhawk could use some love as well but I'd take the Warhawk 100x over the garg atm. Also the mechs I listed are all known weaklings that need buffs.

The Nova needing love is highly arguable, especially with it's new tankiness. I'd say that makes it balanced.

The Summoner is a sunday cruise mech, you only take it out on sundays....

nova is that mech you shouldn't take usually.

the Warhawk doesn't need any love, you can take 4 lrm 15s and 4 large lasers and be OP.

[Knyx]

Crotch RockIt, on 11 May 2015 - 09:49 AM, said:

How is this: GAR-D

worse than this: NVA-PRIME


Same speed. Same firepower. Same gorilla arms. The Nova has JJ, but Gargles has 6 more DHS and a lot more armor. Seems like Mr. Gargles is the better laser boat to me. The Nova may be a better CW mech due to 30 tons less dropship tonnage, but Gargles is a better mech overall.

No way....

Garg is way taller too, and ofc larger hitboxes. Nova also has access to JJs and side torso hardpoints. I'd say the garg is pretty equal with the nova counting all of its cons.. and few pros it has... except the very large and important part is the huge weight difference. This makes the garg underpowered.

People can come on here and say "well I do just fine with my garg" or "I wreck kids with my l33t garg", but I'd bet a TON of MC that the metrics show it as VERY underperforming.

[Deathlike]

Knyx, on 11 May 2015 - 12:10 PM, said:

No way....

Garg is way taller too, and ofc larger hitboxes. Nova also has access to JJs and side torso hardpoints. I'd say the garg is pretty equal with the nova counting all of its cons.. and few pros it has... except the very large and important part is the huge weight difference. This makes the garg underpowered.

People can come on here and say "well I do just fine with my garg" or "I wreck kids with my l33t garg", but I'd bet a TON of MC that the metrics show it as VERY underperforming.

I thought the Tukayyid stats about the Gargles being DEAD LAST in usage was good enough as proof. Of course, you could just use a Timberwolf like everyone else and be done with the discussion....

Source:
http://mwomercs.com/...yid-statistics/

Edited by Deathlike, 11 May 2015 - 02:58 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I'd consider velocity boosting quirks for the various Omnipods to aid ERPPCs, Ballistic Weapons and SRMs.

I'd also further reduce the spread for LB-X and Missile Weapons, since the mech is tight on tonnage when armor gets increased with ammo dependent weapons, to make that ammo use more efficient.

And so the last thing, it would also be nice to see base ammo damage per ton raised up some, where Ballistic ammo could go from ~150 to at least ~180 (with 200 preferable), and SRMs boosted to at least 240 damage per ton. Such tweaks to ammo would also help lights and a few other ammo dependent mechs that have been better off just using Lasers as a result.

[Khobai]

hill climbing is still stupid as !@#$ for assaults

even on the smallest incline the gargoyle slows down to half speed

[Ultimax]

Mcgral18, on 11 May 2015 - 09:15 AM, said:

Good for you.

Have fun with lasers....and only lasers. With 200M range. Be a worse Nova (how is this even possible?!)

Luckily lasers are the meta.

That's why the Victor was used previously, it's loadouts were the meta.

That's why the Victor is not used now, it's loadouts are not the meta and it's overall survivability isn't as good as it used to be.


You can limit yourself to 200m if you want to, the Gargoyle has more options than that but I guess strawmans are easier to knock down.


Lasers + Gauss? GAR does it better than all of them.

All Lasers? GAR does it better than all of them, and has it's choice of at least 2 range brackets and can even hedge it's bets and run 6x CERMLAS and 6x CERSLAS (I think Proton gave birth to this one).

WM Quicksilver, on 11 May 2015 - 09:55 AM, said:

That isn't saying much, the 80 tonners are all some of the worst assaults barring variants like the AS7-K.

Deathlike, on 11 May 2015 - 10:09 AM, said:

It might be the best 80 tonner, but that's a really low bar to be set.

What does that have to do with it?

Do we buff what is the best 80 tonner, without actually acknowledging that there are worse 80 tonners who would then need even more buffs?

Do we really lament "terribad construction rules" when the 3 IS 80 tonners are working with outright inferior equipment?

Mechs that would be better off with a "too heavy" 400 Clan XL instead of something worse like a 325~335 STD or the Fragility of IS XL in their fairly large STs?


No, because that would be silly.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 May 2015 - 04:12 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

Do we buff what is the best 80 tonner, without actually acknowledging that there are worse 80 tonners who would then need even more buffs?

Do we really lament "terribad construction rules" when the 3 IS 80 tonners are working with outright inferior equipment?

We buff all of them AND fix the IS inferiority, but getting people to acknowledge the inferiority of IS tech seems to be hard with all the Wolf loyalists that immediately cry that the IS is OP where as getting people to admit the Gargoyle is terrible seems to be rather easy comparatively. Then there is the Awesome which seems to be unsalvageable.

Edited by WM Quicksilver, 11 May 2015 - 04:27 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 04:04 PM, said:

What does that have to do with it?

It matters, contextually.

Quote

Do we buff what is the best 80 tonner, without actually acknowledging that there are worse 80 tonners who would then need even more buffs?

In this instance, the Gargles does need some buffs, but not to the same extent as the poorer 80 tonners (like, seriously, Victors need buffs at this point, let alone the Awesome... that didn't gain the same buffs the Zeus got in durability).

Quote

Do we really lament "terribad construction rules" when the 3 IS 80 tonners are working with outright inferior equipment?

TBH, it has more to do with whatever internal tier system PGI is using or referencing from. What was "effective" previous is clearly not effective post-quirks, and has stayed that way since (like Firestarter quirks vs the Jenner ones as the obvious comparison).

Quote

Mechs that would be better off with a "too heavy" 400 Clan XL instead of something worse like a 325~335 STD or the Fragility of IS XL in their fairly large STs?

Outside of the slower Awesomes, I rarely see a good reason to NOT run XL engines on those mechs. The only exception was running a STD350 on the Zeus-9S... so, it is what it is.

Quote

No, because that would be silly.

The 80 tonners need to be readjusted on the whole, so it is more or less a sad commentary honestly.

[Alwrathandabout42ninjas]

Are people still complaining about the Gargoyle? Are people seriously saying the Nova is better? LOL. Wow thats hilarious.

Ive been rockin 6 er meds and 6 er smalls since the 6 E armpod came out... and its a beast.

Cant get the mech to perform? Thats on you. L2P.

The executioner, while it will be a good mech, will absolutely NOT replace it in CW, where tonnage restrictions matter. 80 tons vs 95 tons, Gargoyle, or hell, even a Timber will allow you to have more weight with your other 3 mechs.

Edited by Alwrath, 11 May 2015 - 04:53 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>Ive been rockin 6 er meds and 6 er smalls since the 6 E armpod came out

it's basically a nova's build hence gargoyle is compared to nova
also they have the same speed and arm-mounted weapon

[Elizander]

2 UAC5s is all I run on my Gargle.

[McMurl]

SaltBeef, on 11 May 2015 - 05:31 AM, said:

My Question is are Clan quirk passes over? Will there be any more Structure Quirks incoming for the Gargoyle. I know Wave 3 is inbound and the Gargoyle is quite capable of a few strong builds, ( especially with the new pod availiable ) but I am requesting some structure enhancements not weapon, cooling, or agility quirks. I feel this mech has the potential to be a Great mech that fights as good as it looks. This mech is a little low in the armor department and could use some upper torso structure quirks.

The gargoyle is arguably the most effective clan assault at this time. 6 small pulse, uac 20? 8 small pulse? 2ppc 4 small pulse? its main booster is its ridiculous speed and decent armor. people compare it to the timberwolf, except the timberwolf cant field 8 small pulse and 13 DHS. it can face tank direwolves and kick their asses and move on.

The gargoyle doesnt need quirks, people just need to know how to play it. its a speed demon, with excellent DPS capabilities. its an ambusher. Its the clan cure to firestarters. ITS A GOD DAMN FIRE STOPPER.

[bad arcade kitty]

grievoussmaug, on 11 May 2015 - 05:39 PM, said:

Its the clan cure to firestarters. ITS A GOD DAMN FIRE STOPPER.

you mistake it for a streakcrow/streakdog/streakmoner

your proposed 6 small pulse, uac 20 or 8 small pulse or 2ppc 4 small pulse are not anti-light builds

[McMurl]

small pulse lasers are really good for taking on light mechs. go for the hip joint, depending on how many lasers you have, you can quickly leg a light mech and finish it off. also, twin ppcs will open up anything on a light mech save the CT on some lights.

[Bloodweaver]

Ultimatum X, on 11 May 2015 - 09:06 AM, said:

Terribad for a clan mech maybe, but superior to most IS options anyway.


Unless you think paying the same tonnage for a 335STD engine is some kind of a good deal, or if having a Victor that is the same height with larger actual STs, and an IS XL engine is even remotely as survivable.

Those are the comparatively terribad options available to IS mechs.

You either go slower for the same tonnage to have greater survivability, or accept a much, much larger risk and go IS XL.



So yeah, as I said. Keep lamenting this mech - it's still the best 80 tonner in the game.

If you gave me a choice and told me I could only play one 80 Tonner, I would choose the Gargoyle with it's "terribad" construction over the Victor, Zeus or Awesome right now in the current game.

lol

[McMurl]

i mean, as long as you know how to pilot gargoyles, you will rake up ridiculous scores.
(for better viewability sake:
http://imgur.com/pbripSC
http://imgur.com/4l71USp
http://imgur.com/4m2tYDU)

Edited by grievoussmaug, 11 May 2015 - 06:06 PM.

[Ultimax]

WM Quicksilver, on 11 May 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

We buff all of them AND fix the IS inferiority

That's never going to happen.

IS mechs, on a mech vs. mech basis across the board - will never have their inferiority fixed.

There will be a few standouts, and they may or may not get nerfed.


And even after losing Tukayyid, PGI has removed the extra 10 tons because apparently not enough were fully utilizing it.


There will be no parity, play clan mechs. That's what I do.

WM Quicksilver, on 11 May 2015 - 04:26 PM, said:

but getting people to acknowledge the inferiority of IS tech seems to be hard with all the Wolf loyalists that immediately cry that the IS is OP

That will never happen either.

Deathlike, on 11 May 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

In this instance, the Gargles does need some buffs, but not to the same extent as the poorer 80 tonners (like, seriously, Victors need buffs at this point, let alone the Awesome... that didn't gain the same buffs the Zeus got in durability).

The only thing I'd give it is endo, the people crying about it's engine are over-exaggerating because that engine is still better than any engine you can use on almost any IS assault mech.

You will either massively out pace IS Assaults that go STD (some of which have to pay the same weight to be slower), or you will out tank IS Assaults that go XL by a large margin.

This is just a mechanical reality of the game.

Deathlike, on 11 May 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

I rarely see a good reason to ...run ... those mechs.

FTFY.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 11 May 2015 - 07:33 PM.

[SaltBeef]

After reading some of the honest post, Like load outs that are effective small pulses + u ac20. 6 med + 6 small, 2 LL + 10 small etc. These are good builds, NOVA builds. There are also some dishonest posts here . Seriously! Facetank a Direwolf This thing can barely facetank a Stormcrow. This mech is made to close with he enemy and engage at close Range,... that is the primary role of Gargoyle and Executioner. At least let it have the sturdiness to fulfill that role.

This Thread is about the Gargoyle not the 3 IS 80 tonners. While I agree with some post here out the Victor needing some love also I agree!,.. it is a shadow of it's former META King self.

Edited by SaltBeef, 11 May 2015 - 07:55 PM.