95 replies to this topic

[Mahws]

It's been a long, long time since I've run Single Heatsinks. Longer still since I've taken a trial mech out to play. I imagine the same is true for the vast majority of people here, we've all been playing for a while and by this point we simply know better.

So I'd like to remind us all just how utterly bad single heatsinks that new players use are.

Test run on Tourmaline. Exact same loadout (AC10/2ML/LRM10) on each mech, only difference is 10 SHS vs. 10 DHS.

Quote

Stock Cent-A (Current Trial Mech):

Idle Heat: 7%

Running Heat: 12%

Heat per Alpha: 36%

Time to cool: 51 Seconds.

DHS Cent-A:

Idle Heat: 6%

Running Heat: 10%

Heat per Alpha: 27%

Time to cool: 27 Seconds.

DHS can alpha five times before overheat, SHS three times. DHS cools down from 100 percent almost twice as fast as SHS.

I think that bears repeating in bigger letters. DHS GIVE YOU TWICE THE EFFECTIVE FIREPOWER OF A NEW PLAYER. Let that sink in for a moment. No cost. No disadvantage. No trade off. Just straight up double the heat cooldown. Remember how we all make fun of terribly balanced MMO free to plays were high level characters walk around kicking sand in the face of new players with a massive unfair disadvantage? Welcome to Mechwarrior Online, we may not be doing it on purpose, but that's what's happening.

And this is on a STD200 engine, so it's not even the full advantage that engine DHS automatically give over a single heatsink mech.

Imagine a new player, just getting in to the game after reading up on the mechanics on the forum and running around in the test area like a good little mechwarrior. You get in game, you square off against someone else with the same tonnage and weapon load out as you. You get your face beaten in because they can fire their weapons twice as often as you. Rinse, repeat. You uninstall.

Buffing in engine single heatsinks to 1.8 would still keep doubles the better choice for the vast majority of builds, but make trial mechs/stock mechs less massively handicapped and give some more options to experienced players in the mechlab, which is always a good thing.

TL;DR:

Single Heatsinks are a massive (almost half the firepower) handicap for new players that drive them away from the game and offer next to nothing to experienced players. Buffing in Engine SHS would be an effective way to make trial mechs actually work and would make SHS viable for some (but definitely not most) custom builds.

Edited by Mahws, 04 April 2013 - 03:01 AM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

a DHS takes only 1.4 more cooling power than a SHS, but requires 3 lines of space that can not be installed everywhere and overall make sense, because otherwise you have to save massively on arms or ammunition, which is why most successful builds only SHS have

Edited by CSJ Ranger, 04 April 2013 - 07:41 AM.

[FupDup]

I'd honestly prefer to just make SHS a different "flavor" than just faster in-engine cooling.

DHS changes:
1. Increase efficiency to 2.0 when outside of engine
2. Make them only raise heat cap by 1-0

SHS changes:
1. Make them increase heat cap by 2-3 (includes in-engine SHS)
2. Leave them at 1.0 efficiency regardless of location


Now it's an actual tactical decision instead of just a shallow noobtrap.

CSJ Ranger, on 03 April 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

a DHS takes only 1.4 more cooling power than a SHS, but requires 3 lines of space that can not be installed everywhere and üebrall make sense, because otherwise you have to save massively on arms or ammunition, which is why most successful builds only meienr SHS have

In-engine DHS give you 2.0 cooling with zero extra critical spaces wasted. That's where the disparity comes from.

Edited by FupDup, 04 April 2013 - 12:15 PM.

[PestProblem]

mw

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 08:00 PM, said:

It's been a long, long time since I've run Single Heatsinks. Longer still since I've taken a trial mech out to play. I imagine the same is true for the vast majority of people here, we've all been playing for a while and by this point we simply know better.

So I'd like to remind us all just how utterly bad single heatsinks that new players use are.

Test run on Tourmaline. Exact same loadout (AC10/2ML/LRM10) on each mech, only difference is 10 SHS vs. 10 DHS.


DHS can alpha five times before overheat, SHS three times. DHS cools down from 100 percent almost TWICE AS FAST as SHS.

I think that bears repeating in bigger letters. DHS GIVE YOU TWICE THE EFFECTIVE FIREPOWER OF A NEW PLAYER. Let that sink in for a moment. No cost. No disadvantage. No trade off. Just straight up double the heat cooldown. Remember how we all make fun of terribly balanced MMO free to plays were high level characters walk around kicking sand in the face of new players with a massive unfair disadvantage? Welcome to Mechwarrior Online, we may not be doing it on purpose, but that's what's happening.

And this is on a STD200 engine, so it's not even the full advantage that engine DHS automatically give over a single heatsink mech.

New Players:
Imagine a new player, just getting in to the game after reading up on the mechanics on the forum and running around in the test area like a good little mechwarrior. You get in game, you square off against someone else with the same tonnage and weapon load out as you. You get your face beaten in because they can fire their weapons twice as often as you. Rinse, repeat. You uninstall.

Experienced Players:
As an experienced player I can do okay with single heatsinks, but with very rare exceptions (Commandos with their sub 250 engines and ES/FF and the medium laser boating slow Awesome) any build I make is instantly improved by double heatsinks.

Buffing in engine single heatsinks to 1.8 would still keep doubles the better choice for the vast majority of builds, but make trial mechs/stock mechs less massively handicapped and give some more options to experienced players in the mechlab, which is always a good thing.

TL;DR:
Single Heatsinks are a massive (almost half the firepower) handicap for new players that drive them away from the game and offer next to nothing to experienced players. Buffing in Engine SHS would be an effective way to make trial mechs actually work and would make SHS viable for some (but definitely not most) custom builds.

CSJ Ranger, on 03 April 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

a DHS takes only 1.4 more cooling power than a SHS, but requires 3 lines of space that can not be installed everywhere and üebrall make sense, because otherwise you have to save massively on arms or ammunition, which is why most successful builds only meienr SHS have

MAHWS, I have one question for you. As someone who doesn't use single heatsinks anymore, which heatsink type do you use in configurations more ammunition dependant? Please ignore what ranger said entirely when answering the question.

Edited by PestProblem, 03 April 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[Moromillas]

No, this is backwards. For a long time, new bloods don't even look at Mech customisation, it's a non-factor for new bloods.

[Noobzorz]

They can do both.

As time has gone on, I've actually warmed to the idea of getting to check out all my camos.

[One Medic Army]

"Solution" is pretty simple to me.
Modify all trial mechs to have DHS, as many as will fit, and spend the extra tonnage on: CASE, Armor, engine

[Mahws]

Just realized the thread posted twice. Sorry for the mess folks, hopefully the mods will clean it up.

PestProblem, on 03 April 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

MAHWS, I have one question for you. As someone who doesn't use single heatsinks anymore, which heatsink type do you use in configurations more ammunition dependant? Please ignore what ranger said entirely when answering the question.

Simple. Double heatsinks. Because it saves me ten tonnes and ten slots. In fact for one slot of space less than ten single heatsinks (20 single heatsinks value) I can have three double heatsinks (24.2 single heatsinks heat sinks value). And seven tonnes spare for more ammo, bigger guns, a better engine, or more armor.

Edited by Mahws, 03 April 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[Tezcatli]

I'm running single heatsinks. I just don't try to tangle directly with anyone. Unless it's a light. I hide behind other mechs, ducking in behind them, around buildings. I average about 175 damage with my trebuchet using an LRM 10, 4 medium laser, and one measly Streak SRM 2. Double heatsinks would be quite the improvement to it. But I'm saving for the third variant.

They honestly need to make these people pay extra for getting their mechs wrecked. The in-game explanation for why every mech doesn't use DHS is because it's expensive and not available to everyone. But in this game that isn't a factor. Make it a factor again.

[Hawkwings]

PestProblem, on 03 April 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

mw


MAHWS, I have one question for you. As someone who doesn't use single heatsinks anymore, which heatsink type do you use in configurations more ammunition dependant? Please ignore what ranger said entirely when answering the question.

Please show us all a mech design that works better with single heatsinks. Since you're obviously new, here's the mechlab program that everyone uses: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

[Mahws]

Tezcatli, on 03 April 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

I'm running single heatsinks. I just don't try to tangle directly with anyone. Unless it's a light. I hide behind other mechs, ducking in behind them, around buildings. I average about 175 damage with my trebuchet using an LRM 10, 4 medium laser, and one measly Streak SRM 2. Double heatsinks would be quite the improvement to it. But I'm saving for the third variant.

They honestly need to make these people pay extra for getting their mechs wrecked. The in-game explanation for why every mech doesn't use DHS is because it's expensive and not available to everyone. But in this game that isn't a factor. Make it a factor again.

Repair and rearm doesn't really work with the premium time model. What's unfordable for a player who earns ~100,000 a match won't be for someone who earns ~150,000. That and grinding up a substandard build just so you can play with your good one every five matches isn't fun for most people. Especially when the match maker is just as likely to toss you into a match where you'll be fighting someone who's bringing their most expensive A game.

Paying customers will be able to afford to use expensive equipment every match, or more often. Both of those feel a little too close to Pay2Win.

[Tezcatli]

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Repair and rearm doesn't really work with the premium time model. What's unfordable for a player who earns ~100,000 a match won't be for someone who earns ~150,000. That and grinding up a substandard build just so you can play with your good one every five matches isn't fun for most people. Especially when the match maker is just as likely to toss you into a match where you'll be fighting someone who's bringing their most expensive A game.

Paying customers will be able to afford to use expensive equipment every match, or more often. Both of those feel a little too close to Pay2Win.

That is a good point.

[PestProblem]

Hawkwings, on 03 April 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Please show us all a mech design that works better with single heatsinks. Since you're obviously new, here's the mechlab program that everyone uses: http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/

why would anyone find doubles necessary in an ammo hog? Think big punch dakka dakka not pew pew...

Edited by PestProblem, 03 April 2013 - 09:35 PM.

[Chavette]

The game is pretty unfriendly for noobs, as if the weapon loadouts werent bad enuff, they have to deal with SHS.


And then they try to break up the barely working matchmaker for 3rd person...

[PestProblem]

Mahws, on 03 April 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Just realized the thread posted twice. Sorry for the mess folks, hopefully the mods will clean it up.


Simple. Double heatsinks. Because it saves me ten tonnes and ten slots. In fact for one slot of space less than ten single heatsinks (20 single heatsinks value) I can have three double heatsinks (24.2 single heatsinks heat sinks value). And seven tonnes spare for more ammo, bigger guns, a better engine, or more armor.

Okay you never make any all purpose direct fire configs that are not as dependent on energy or missile weapons and realize the tradeoff though?

[Hedonism Robot]

Wow, I can't believe there are this many people that don't understand how bad SHS are. I think the idea posted above of giving them a considerably higher heat threshold would add a different flavor when designing a mech. This would also make it more simple for new players.

[Hawkwings]

PestProblem, on 03 April 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

why would anyone find doubles necessary in an ammo hog? Think big punch dakka dakka not pew pew...

Because every weapon generates a lot of heat relative to the heat scale in this game? Because you can overheat quite quickly wiring nothing but 2 LRM-15s? Because AC2s are ridiculously hot?

Again, show us a build that works better with single heatsinks.

[Wales Grey]

PestProblem, on 03 April 2013 - 09:33 PM, said:

why would anyone find doubles necessary in an ammo hog? Think big punch dakka dakka not pew pew...

Autocannons run really hot, it's the RoF that does it. Besides, with weapons that are "ammo hogs" the concerns are almost entirely weight-related.

edit:

This is the single most ammo-hungry build I could think of. It also runs hotter than a branding iron and will likely explode within ~30 seconds of mashing the fire button. If you spread out the guns firing pattern to account for the way MWO does heat, it still overheats in under ten seconds. All of its issues with cooling are related almost entirely to tonnage, rather than free space.

A less idiotic build still has similar issues with massive overheating, because ballistic weapons run really freaking hot in MWO. Again, the problem here is not space, it is weight.

The elite mechamancers of the Word of Lowtax have scientifically proven, using the wonders of Goon Science^tm in internal tests and design challenges, that DHS are strictly more efficent on every possible build, except for certain experimental test machines that were designed and tested soley for the purpose of proving that SHS could outperform DHS in a small number of fringe cases.[1]

Simply put, there is no reason to use SHS outside a coulple dumb gimmick builds, like the Omeganova or the Gepardflakwanzer Kai.

[1]: REDACTED

DOUBLE EDIT:

I just did some number crunching and DHS are strictly more efficent on LAC carriers, HAC carriers, non-idiotic PPC boats, and everything else I tested that wasn't an Omeganova, a Thor, or a Gepardflakwanzer Kai.

TRIPLE EDIT COMBO:

After some quick double-checking, the Omeganova is actually strictly better with DHS.

Edited by Wales Grey, 03 April 2013 - 10:05 PM.

[Tie Ma]

they need to make it so that 1.0 is heat efficient. but right now 1.4 is heat efficient.

Edited by Tie Ma, 03 April 2013 - 09:43 PM.

[Mahws]

PestProblem, on 03 April 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Okay you never make any all purpose direct fire configs that are not as dependent on energy or missile weapons and realize the tradeoff though?

I get the feeling you don't know how engine heatsinks work?

You get ten free invisible heatsinks in the engine for engines 250 and up. The Hunchback comes stock with a 200 engine that has eight free heatsinks.

With double heatsinks each in engine heatsink is worth TWO single heatsinks. That means most mechs get ten free single heatsinks in the engine that take up no extra weight or slots as soon as they upgrade to double heatsinks. The Hunchback gets six free.

There is no tradeoff, because double heatsinks give you the equivalent of ten heatsinks for no weight or slots before you even add a single heatsink to your build.