407 replies to this topic

[Domenoth]

Wintersdark, on 11 May 2015 - 06:07 PM, said:

Yeah, in a nutshell

1) TT battlevalue's would be worthless here, not even good as a starting point, because really mech geometry is probably one of the most prominent factors in mech power.. Particular when coupled with the correct hardpoints. Thus, you'd need to design a totally new BV system, and adapt it every time game mechanics changed. Not impossible, but a tremendous amount of Dev time to create, balance and maintain. BV is much easier in a largely static dice based game.

2) how do you determine what BV is allowed per team? What about pugs, pugs of teams, 12 mans... Vs combinations of the same? Do you give each player a BV limit? You could use an arbitrary value, and then with a fixed 4 mechs as that seems a UI requirement..

But ultimately, that's all pretty much functionally identical to tonnage, particularly given how poorly balanced the BV ratings will be (and thus how open to exploitation).


BV sounds awesome, and is great for TT. In theory - with free devtime to develops and maintain - it could be here too. But the reality is that its not worth the cost andrisk that it wouldn't be balanced and thus be tremendously exploitable.

People lobbying for BattleValue would probably do themselves a great service if they stopped calling it BattleValue. What they are really after is assigning a scalar number to a Mech and its pilot. It would have no relation whatsoever to the TT BattleValue formula. Of course there is much hand-waving about how that scalar would actually be calculated. But that's just details.

You said a BattleValue (for lack of a better term) system wouldn't be any better than tonnage, but I'm not sure that's entirely correct. If the really good Mechs had a much bigger number than the crappy Mechs, we could make sure that 4 of whatever the best Mech is doesn't fit within the maximum threshold.

I'm not really campaigning for a BattleValue system, but I'd prefer if you'd focus exclusively on pointing out that the actual scalar number would be incredibly difficult to calculate and that's why we can't have it, rather than saying it wouldn't be any better than a tonnage system because tonnage accounts even less for the very things you mentioned like geometry and hardpoint locations.

Edit:
And I do realize you did mostly focus on the complexity, but it's like guilt by association. Because you also said it would be no better than tonnage, your other valid arguments are likely to get dismissed.

Edited by Domenoth, 11 May 2015 - 06:54 PM.

[Darth Hotz]

So PGIs moneycows are not giving enough milk anymore because they cant hit the instant win button in CW like they do in pug matches? Time to do something and bring the nerfhammer on the mostly free to play is players. Only happy customers will buy the next clan wave packages. And loosers are not happy. Nerfing the Stalker next? How about nerfing the TDR 5SS too? Cant let it happen that Clanners face two competetive IS mechs that prevent them from reaching Terra within 4 weeks. Just dont fix the real problems of CW, Mercs hopping from one faction to another without any obstacle in their way. And stay away from the Timberwolves and Stromcrows. Dont nerf them ever or the main moneyspenders will get angry.

But anyway. Who cares? By now Steiner got its stuff together. The 12th Donegal Teamspeak server became a main point of contact for german Steiners also welcoming more and more international players each day and in the atlantic main times the Steiner Hub is crowded. Organisation level is high and there is always an experienced drop commander ready to kick some clanner butts.

So whatever is done to make clanners victorious again, if you lower dropdeck weight, nerf IS mechs or introduce new pay to win clan mechs. Just do it. Steiner will overcome, adept and throw a blue fist in your face.

[Telmasa]

Band-aid for the real problem....

The tonnage wasn't the issue, the superquirks WERE.

If you reduced the super-quirked IS mechs to a reasonable norm (and brought other underquirked mechs up to that norm), while keeping that tonnage limit difference, I really think most players could have been happy with that.

[Adamski]

Telmasa, on 11 May 2015 - 07:04 PM, said:

Band-aid for the real problem....

The tonnage wasn't the issue, the superquirks WERE.

If you reduced the super-quirked IS mechs to a reasonable norm (and brought other underquirked mechs up to that norm), while keeping that tonnage limit difference, I really think most players could have been happy with that.

There are no super-quirked mechs, just mechs that have been quirked to the Clans level.

[norhymes]

PGI,

Was disappointed to see this change. Discussions of imbalance aside, the manipulation of the result through yo-yoing developer decisions is stop-gap at best.

I've spent too much money on this game to care about spending another dollar with this sort of approach.

[Frost Lord]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

Why is PGI so intent on focusing on symptoms instead of problems?

The reason that the Clans are being pushed back is because of POPULATION IMBALANCE

Maybe if PGI re-added some population incentives then the population would even out a bit more.

Same as the reason that there is very little mech variety in CW is due to lack of balance, which needs to be addressed at the root (mech scaling & models) with quirks to bring the factions into balance. Instead PGI thinks the 1/1/1/1 rule is a good idea.

they should introduce a percentage cap so if one faction has X % more population no one can take a contract with them till things get a bit more leveled.

as for the decision it seems like a step backwards for balancing, they should implement more things like wait differences, perhaps even giving IS more tactical options rather then relying on quirks. they might as well jump to a time period where IS have access to clan based weapons, would make it easier

my suggestion start giving IS mechs some negative quirks, along with the quarks cleaners are getting. then increase there drop tonnage minimum and maximum and give everyone a fifth slot, the choice to take a minimum of three mechs and a max of five, this would bring a lot more depth to community warfare

Edited by Frost Lord, 11 May 2015 - 07:26 PM.

[Telmasa]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

What is it you think I lost? I know vague statements makes you seem deep to your little sister, but it dont mean squat to me.

Dude, seriously, you need to calm down. You understand nothing about the implications of the event's results, why the IS lost (hint: population disparity), the myriad of variables involved, or anything.

You're taking serious amount of personal butthurt over something you're failing to comprehend properly. Just stop.

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

There are no super-quirked mechs, just mechs that have been quirked to the Clans level.

Also, not even remotely true. You clearly don't actually play many clan mechs yourself.

I play both IS and Clans. I've used the "meta" builds. Taking a Thunderbolt is pure easy-mode compared to trying to use the alpha-ERML Timberwolf. The only "easymode" Clan mech is the Streak-crow, and that has limitations of its own compared to a superquirked mech.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 May 2015 - 07:12 PM.

[purplewasabi]

0phialacria, on 11 May 2015 - 03:40 PM, said:

Can someone from the IS even adequately tell me what the REAL advantage clans have over you is? You have massive quirk mechs, you all KNOW that a Stalker 4N is ridiculously Meta, along with the firestarter. WHAT exactly are you complaining about?
As sarcastic as this may sound, I really am curious. I feel like I must be missing something that that extra 10 tons really gave you, because WE sure as hell didn't have it. We don't have any advantage except having XL engines that are tougher. Range? Not anymore. Heat? We're hotboxes! Damage? Our lasers take longer to cycle, meaning we can't armor roll like you can. AC's? We all know Clan AC's are terrible, because we miss even one shot out of an AC-10 and we lose base damage. You pop a single shot and get full damage out of all your guns. Your lasers recharge faster, take less time to burn, and generate less heat.

WHAT is the PROBLEM here? Look at the CW map! LOOK AT IT. We haven't taken a SINGLE planet besides Tuk in almost 2 months. 2 MONTHS. What am I missing that makes this such a huge deal? WE don't have flexibility, how come YOU get to?

It gave most of us an ECM assault. You can't see the OP-ness of the Clan mechs because players like you still play like a bloody IS pilot, relying on torso-twisting and what not. You have mobility and firepower but fortunately most of you don't know how to use it. You're playstyle must change, but you will not because most of you whiners are rigid as hell. Instead of learning and figuring out how to play with your toys, you complain.

Regarding the OP, it is just pathetic. Another nail in the coffin for MWO.
Edit: But why am I crying about this ****, I don't even play CW that much (probably less than 10 matches) because of the wait time.

Edited by purplewasabi, 11 May 2015 - 07:54 PM.

[Adamski]

Telmasa, on 11 May 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

Dude, seriously, you need to calm down. You understand nothing about the implications of the event's results, why the IS lost (hint: population disparity), the myriad of variables involved, or anything.

You're taking serious amount of personal butthurt over something you're failing to comprehend properly. Just stop.



Also, not even remotely true. You clearly don't actually play many clan mechs yourself.

I play both IS and Clans. I've used the "meta" builds. Taking a Thunderbolt is pure easy-mode compared to trying to use the alpha-ERML Timberwolf. The only "easymode" Clan mech is the Streak-crow, and that has limitations of its own compared to a superquirked mech.

Yes, make more assumptions about me, its not like I've mastered 7 different Clan mechs already.

The Alpha TBR is not a brawler, so dont brawl with a brawling TDR. I dont know why I have to tell you this, but if thats what you are doing no wonder you think the IS Quirks are so super powered.

[Espertine]

Usual P.G.I. aka Personal(perpetual) Gimp Iniative..

Hey how can we alienate the people who do still play!?

[Fenris Kell]

LordLosh, on 11 May 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

I know what the problem is and its not tonnage limits or nerfs or buffs. Large competitive units switching sides. MS was clan and pushed very far into IS map, now they are Kurtia and stomping clans. just one example other units doing the same thing.

• no real reason to not be a mercanary group like MS and others that go to what ever faction gives them quickest game times or highest pay outs. Clan wars is a group game and the biggest groups are IS right now not Clan. give it time and they will go back to Clan and then we will be in the same boat.
  
• No real reason to keep a planet. Unit X captures planet and gets its name on it................. whoppp eeee no one cares. if it generates MC every so often or can be upgraded outfitted how Unit X likes or really anything to give owning and controlling a planet meaning and substances it will help having the large influx of units going back and fortieth

THIS....QFT

[Frost Lord]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

There are no super-quirked mechs, just mechs that have been quirked to the Clans level.

which is a problem if we have some mechs that are as good or nearly as good as clan mechs it makes the others redundant and if they bring them all up to the same stranded then they are better off giving IS clan based weapons rather then mucking around with quarks.
better to use qurks to balance IS V IS and clan V clan so mechs that people payed for don't fall behind and or we get to a point ware everyone's doing rediculas amounts of damage.

all tho I don't mind this so much at this stage I actually think the clans should get to fight on even even tonnage at the start of the conflict since they don't have many planets to begin with kinda representative of them launching a surprise attack and the IS taking its time to reorganize its forces to counter a new threat.

Edited by Frost Lord, 11 May 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Shhhh SHHhhh I think I hear something. I think thats the sound of a massive Omni mech nerf coming this way.

[Revis Volek]

nehebkau, on 11 May 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

I take it PGI hasn't noticed that many of the clan groups are not really playing CW at the moment?

<sigh>

Guess we are going to have to pay MS to go back to wolf guys.

This is WHY i dont play CW, I choose to spend my cbills on mechs and not to "HIRE" merc units to win CW FOR me.


Address a real issue and maybe i will come back to this mode. Spawn camping and light rushes is a start. Will keep the solo guys happy.

[Tarl Cabot]

Tyras, on 11 May 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

The numbers show that the Clans win the majority of battles in CW events, but because in the week after the map reset they're getting push back the IS gets nerfed? What sort of logic is that? A week's worth of non event fights causes PGI to make a change, but clear statistical information spanning thousands of battles showing that the Clans have the advantage is ignored?

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 May 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Eider]

In order to make clanners further feel skilled and adequate they will then announce is shall hereby be restricted to one small laser per mech.. cause balance.

[Arkaiko]

oh great, after a FAIL event, with 30 min to got a prety shity CW against a premade clan team, u will do this?

the Tuk event was almost "clan exclusive", better wait time between battles, almost all clan players det the final prize (almost sure) and they, who play many many battles are too bored of cw in this moment, and they dont go deffend planets, do WE, the IS eat clan pugs and get his planets, but the problem here is not the tonage, i prefeer improbe clan decks to 250 tons, but this is stupid

PGI u r doinit bad, this is a population problem, improbe the clan population, not the decks

bad pgi, bad, bad, bad!

[Frost Lord]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 May 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

well there were no ghost drops so that would suggest they won the most games tho that would likely be because our 12 man groups spent 30-60 minutes waiting for a game.

[Telmasa]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Yes, make more assumptions about me, its not like I've mastered 7 different Clan mechs already.

The Alpha TBR is not a brawler, so dont brawl with a brawling TDR. I dont know why I have to tell you this, but if thats what you are doing no wonder you think the IS Quirks are so super powered.

Assumptions? Here is proof perfect that you have no idea what you are talking about:

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

Prior to the tonnage buff, Clans had a 60% win rate, after the tonnage buff, they had a 53% win rate, now PGI is taking away the tonnage and people are expecting the Clans to go back up to 60%.
Its pretty simple cause and effect, PGI has trouble with it though.

You're quoting numbers that are completely out of context and represent a wholly different set of statistics than what you are claiming. That event win rate has almost nothing to do with actual performance, and everything to do with population disparity; in fact there's plenty statistics to suggest that throughout the Tukkayid event, the IS consistently outperformed the Clans per each match.

The reason the Clans won at all was because of population disparity, plain and simple. And we already all know about -MS- and what they've been up to.

"don't brawl", are you serious? The Thunderbolt-5SS has DOUBLE RANGE on MPLs so that they are effectively Large Lasers *PLUS* heat reduction *PLUS cooldown; the 9SE (which I use to troll pug matches) fires 3 LPL like they're medium lasers (while simultaneously doing double-gauss damage) at LL max range; the Thunderbolt also manages to have a compact hitbox with god-mode hardpoints combined with mobility that allows it to advance with almost complete impunity, where as the Timberwolve's ears will pop off with a mere 2 alphas from any of your precious IS superquirk laser boats.

The superquirked IS mechs stomp all over any competition in the game, especially other non-quirked IS mechs. The Grid Iron with a single Gauss Rifle has more DPS than a double-gauss Jagermech or King Crab.

It's a complete joke, nothing but a gimimckry B.S. contest; and you try to justify it with a fake boogeyman ghost story about the Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

The only justified complaints about the Stormcrow are that its hitboxes need the Jenner treatment & that Streak-6s need range reduced to 270, plus a possible ghost heat scale increase. Everything else is totally ignorant hogwash.


To all the other IS players instantly jumping on the cry bandwagon here: You Don't Know What You Are Talking About.

You haven't played Clan Mechs. You haven't experienced how one-sided the Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball is without having your own Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball to counter it.

I've been on both sides of this, and the favor is overwhelmingly on the side of the IS superquirked mechs.


As I stated before: the problem here is the quirks. Fix the quirks, provide nerfs to Streak-6 boating, let the tonnage be the same for both sides, and work out the balance from there.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 May 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[Slambot]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 May 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

Clans won about 53% of the battles. The math was easy. Just compare the number of IS victories to clan victories. Every faction got a point for every victory. To me, the most compelling stat was that IS did more damage yet killed fewer mechs. This says that the biggest factor in survivability is the clan XL.