407 replies to this topic

[Espertine]

Usual P.G.I. aka Personal(perpetual) Gimp Iniative..

Hey how can we alienate the people who do still play!?

[Fenris Kell]

LordLosh, on 11 May 2015 - 03:14 PM, said:

I know what the problem is and its not tonnage limits or nerfs or buffs. Large competitive units switching sides. MS was clan and pushed very far into IS map, now they are Kurtia and stomping clans. just one example other units doing the same thing.

• no real reason to not be a mercanary group like MS and others that go to what ever faction gives them quickest game times or highest pay outs. Clan wars is a group game and the biggest groups are IS right now not Clan. give it time and they will go back to Clan and then we will be in the same boat.
  
• No real reason to keep a planet. Unit X captures planet and gets its name on it................. whoppp eeee no one cares. if it generates MC every so often or can be upgraded outfitted how Unit X likes or really anything to give owning and controlling a planet meaning and substances it will help having the large influx of units going back and fortieth

THIS....QFT

[Frost Lord]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 07:06 PM, said:

There are no super-quirked mechs, just mechs that have been quirked to the Clans level.

which is a problem if we have some mechs that are as good or nearly as good as clan mechs it makes the others redundant and if they bring them all up to the same stranded then they are better off giving IS clan based weapons rather then mucking around with quarks.
better to use qurks to balance IS V IS and clan V clan so mechs that people payed for don't fall behind and or we get to a point ware everyone's doing rediculas amounts of damage.

all tho I don't mind this so much at this stage I actually think the clans should get to fight on even even tonnage at the start of the conflict since they don't have many planets to begin with kinda representative of them launching a surprise attack and the IS taking its time to reorganize its forces to counter a new threat.

Edited by Frost Lord, 11 May 2015 - 07:44 PM.

[Johnny Z]

Shhhh SHHhhh I think I hear something. I think thats the sound of a massive Omni mech nerf coming this way.

[Revis Volek]

nehebkau, on 11 May 2015 - 05:20 PM, said:

I take it PGI hasn't noticed that many of the clan groups are not really playing CW at the moment?

<sigh>

Guess we are going to have to pay MS to go back to wolf guys.

This is WHY i dont play CW, I choose to spend my cbills on mechs and not to "HIRE" merc units to win CW FOR me.


Address a real issue and maybe i will come back to this mode. Spawn camping and light rushes is a start. Will keep the solo guys happy.

[Tarl Cabot]

Tyras, on 11 May 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

The numbers show that the Clans win the majority of battles in CW events, but because in the week after the map reset they're getting push back the IS gets nerfed? What sort of logic is that? A week's worth of non event fights causes PGI to make a change, but clear statistical information spanning thousands of battles showing that the Clans have the advantage is ignored?

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 11 May 2015 - 07:42 PM.

[Eider]

In order to make clanners further feel skilled and adequate they will then announce is shall hereby be restricted to one small laser per mech.. cause balance.

[Arkaiko]

oh great, after a FAIL event, with 30 min to got a prety shity CW against a premade clan team, u will do this?

the Tuk event was almost "clan exclusive", better wait time between battles, almost all clan players det the final prize (almost sure) and they, who play many many battles are too bored of cw in this moment, and they dont go deffend planets, do WE, the IS eat clan pugs and get his planets, but the problem here is not the tonage, i prefeer improbe clan decks to 250 tons, but this is stupid

PGI u r doinit bad, this is a population problem, improbe the clan population, not the decks

bad pgi, bad, bad, bad!

[Frost Lord]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 May 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

well there were no ghost drops so that would suggest they won the most games tho that would likely be because our 12 man groups spent 30-60 minutes waiting for a game.

[Telmasa]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 07:25 PM, said:

Yes, make more assumptions about me, its not like I've mastered 7 different Clan mechs already.

The Alpha TBR is not a brawler, so dont brawl with a brawling TDR. I dont know why I have to tell you this, but if thats what you are doing no wonder you think the IS Quirks are so super powered.

Assumptions? Here is proof perfect that you have no idea what you are talking about:

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 05:25 PM, said:

Prior to the tonnage buff, Clans had a 60% win rate, after the tonnage buff, they had a 53% win rate, now PGI is taking away the tonnage and people are expecting the Clans to go back up to 60%.
Its pretty simple cause and effect, PGI has trouble with it though.

You're quoting numbers that are completely out of context and represent a wholly different set of statistics than what you are claiming. That event win rate has almost nothing to do with actual performance, and everything to do with population disparity; in fact there's plenty statistics to suggest that throughout the Tukkayid event, the IS consistently outperformed the Clans per each match.

The reason the Clans won at all was because of population disparity, plain and simple. And we already all know about -MS- and what they've been up to.

"don't brawl", are you serious? The Thunderbolt-5SS has DOUBLE RANGE on MPLs so that they are effectively Large Lasers *PLUS* heat reduction *PLUS cooldown; the 9SE (which I use to troll pug matches) fires 3 LPL like they're medium lasers (while simultaneously doing double-gauss damage) at LL max range; the Thunderbolt also manages to have a compact hitbox with god-mode hardpoints combined with mobility that allows it to advance with almost complete impunity, where as the Timberwolve's ears will pop off with a mere 2 alphas from any of your precious IS superquirk laser boats.

The superquirked IS mechs stomp all over any competition in the game, especially other non-quirked IS mechs. The Grid Iron with a single Gauss Rifle has more DPS than a double-gauss Jagermech or King Crab.

It's a complete joke, nothing but a gimimckry B.S. contest; and you try to justify it with a fake boogeyman ghost story about the Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

The only justified complaints about the Stormcrow are that its hitboxes need the Jenner treatment & that Streak-6s need range reduced to 270, plus a possible ghost heat scale increase. Everything else is totally ignorant hogwash.


To all the other IS players instantly jumping on the cry bandwagon here: You Don't Know What You Are Talking About.

You haven't played Clan Mechs. You haven't experienced how one-sided the Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball is without having your own Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball to counter it.

I've been on both sides of this, and the favor is overwhelmingly on the side of the IS superquirked mechs.


As I stated before: the problem here is the quirks. Fix the quirks, provide nerfs to Streak-6 boating, let the tonnage be the same for both sides, and work out the balance from there.

Edited by Telmasa, 11 May 2015 - 07:57 PM.

[Slambot]

Tarl Cabot, on 11 May 2015 - 07:39 PM, said:

There has been no clear data that the Clans won the most battles, only that they won enough battles in the end to hold the most pips on the map. PGI has yet to release the actual win/lose for the entire event. And what they have released they have only done it in segments, via the actual units involved then that was done per person and not per drop.

On the other point, this is PGI way of resetting the game in steps, first the reset of the borders to the beginning of the invasion, the loyalty points, now the total weight class.

The sad thing is that many of the changes were supposed to have been based on actual data, but that data being bounced off the map told a different story, then not a deep enough dive on why it was happening. It was not until the IS rolled over the Clans in the first CW special event that did a light bulb went off, or else they were already aware of it but did not know how BIG an issue it was until that event.

I do hope they actually learn from it and start making changes after some deep diving then make the changes (with possible explanation and examples). Only time will tell. I do love the game, but there are always room for improvement.

Clans won about 53% of the battles. The math was easy. Just compare the number of IS victories to clan victories. Every faction got a point for every victory. To me, the most compelling stat was that IS did more damage yet killed fewer mechs. This says that the biggest factor in survivability is the clan XL.

[50 50]

@Colonel Cody.
Yes. I play Clan.
In the majority of the drops I played during Tukayyid, it was as a PUG or in a small group.
More often than not, the matches were quite even and good enjoyable battles.
More often than not the IS team won, particularly if they were defending.
Congrats to them. I experienced my share of defeats and was on the wrong end of a stomping more than once.
Can't expect every match to play out the same way, but I'm not concerned that an IS team played better in the match.
Overall, the whole event was very close. You can't say it was one sided as there was only a small percentage difference in the win.

I would like to see the introduction of stars for the Clan in CW mainly because that's what they used in the board game.
I fully expect that the difference in team numbers would lead to other changes to keep it competitive.
10 Clan with a total of 2400 tons vs 12 IS with a total of 2880 tons is fairly significant. Would have been 3000 tons for IS. Perhaps this is what is coming?
I agree that changing the tonnage of the drop decks isn't going to do much other than perhaps shuffle one mech to something else.
There hasn't been a development reason for why there has been the change, only the story reason.

@Adamski, I was only surmising that this might be a way that a form of logistics could be introduced. There are plenty of posts out there about introducing some form of logistics, having some reason to attack a planet etc. Most involve something to do with reducing the cost of buying mechs if you belong to the faction which might be a benefit for controlling the planet, but it's not really a logistics/supply line solution.
It occurred to me that the drop deck weight limit could be used to simulate it.
The further your lines extend, the less resources you get to draw upon, ie. less tonnage. But if those supply lines can be strengthened the tonnage can be increased again. Particular planets may be key as they could have more resources therefore allowing a higher limit.
But it would need to be based on distances on the map from these key planets to where the contested planet is, otherwise you would have areas like Steiner and Davion with much larger weight limits compared to say Liao.
Consider the capitals as an example.
You don't really want these planets changing faction, there has to be a stronghold for each side as the epitome of that faction's power.
If you were to be fighting for that planet or close to it, you could expect the defending forces to be significant, ie. their weight limit is much higher. I would fully expect to have to face wave after wave of Steiner 'scout' lances if Tharkad were the target.
By altering the tonnage limit you create different games with different styles of play thanks to different mech selections.
While it's not overly difficult to change the drop deck, being able to setup more than one would certainly help.
So I hope that has helped clarify what I was thinking of.

[Slambot]

Oh and IS did not "roll over" the clans in the first CW event. The clans still won more than they lost. About the same as at Tukayyid.

[Eider]

Slambot, on 11 May 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Clans won about 53% of the battles. The math was easy. Just compare the number of IS victories to clan victories. Every faction got a point for every victory. To me, the most compelling stat was that IS did more damage yet killed fewer mechs. This says that the biggest factor in survivability is the clan XL.

Considering top 3 were crows its more than xl, its the broken hitboxes.

[Telmasa]

Frost Lord, on 11 May 2015 - 07:48 PM, said:

well there were no ghost drops so that would suggest they won the most games tho that would likely be because our 12 man groups spent 30-60 minutes waiting for a game.

This right here is what I'm talking about when it comes to population disparity - the amount of "new" or "casual" IS players outnumbered that who were playing for the clans by a completely staggering amount, which is why you saw qeues of 30+ IS teams at any given time waiting for a fight.

That's why the IS didn't just outright sweep the event. Without that population disparity (and without -MS- being -MS-), the IS would have had a LANDSLIDE win.

[Threat Doc]

Y'know, I've said my peace, here... Battle Value would solve so many problems that none of you are willing to acknowledge could be done, but you're so scared of changing anything, or trying anything new, that you just dismiss it out of hand. You say Battle Value is an overly complicated system, but you can't tell me why tonnage is better, more even, and then you ***** and complain that everything's out of whack. That's fine, stick with the stupidity, and good luck.

[Jess Hazen]

Adamski, on 11 May 2015 - 05:23 PM, said:

What is it you think I lost? I know vague statements makes you seem deep to your little sister, but it dont mean squat to me.

I believe that teamwork is always the deciding factor in a team game, and that the clans had better composed teams. Better composed teams being a general statement meaning that a higher percentage of the teams playing were in fact premade and organized teams. Even when its a pug group there are a lot of people who care and do their best to organize the company.

The clans managed, albeit just barely, to scrape together the minimum number of teams to hold the 63 zones against the IS zerg war of attrition when it mattered. Also on every occasion when it mattered [you know the last few hours of the event] rushing the base and taking the win and claiming the zone for clan.

It was taking about 4 minutes to get a win not including loading time for my group when we were lucky enough to get an attack.

TLDR; Organized clan teams had no wait time and therefore shattered through Tukayyid defenses.

[Livewyr]

Clans are getting pushed back... because many of us (myself included) just don't give a damn at the moment.

As of my disposition right now, I probably won't play more than 1-2 matches a week until July when my Shadowcat comes out... and even then, unless there is some drastic change (incentive to play CW) I'll probably only be around for a couple weeks.


There just isn't any reason to do it; getting your name on a planet is 98% dependent on having more players in your group than the next clan, with minimal consideration of skill gap.
Too many other games out there with some sense of personal or unit Advancement; here... not so much.

250-> 240 ...whatever, didn't notice the difference anyways.

[Jess Hazen]

Kay Wolf, on 11 May 2015 - 08:06 PM, said:

Y'know, I've said my peace, here... Battle Value would solve so many problems that none of you are willing to acknowledge could be done, but you're so scared of changing anything, or trying anything new, that you just dismiss it out of hand. You say Battle Value is an overly complicated system, but you can't tell me why tonnage is better, more even, and then you ***** and complain that everything's out of whack. That's fine, stick with the stupidity, and good luck.

I think they should give BV a shot. That would involve a whole-hearted commitment to it, removal of quirks[lets say some durability quirks are acceptable], actual true weapon stats, and the normalizing of grey areas around weapons[laser duration, removal of ghost heat, ect].

[Adamski]

Telmasa, on 11 May 2015 - 07:51 PM, said:

Assumptions? Here is proof perfect that you have no idea what you are talking about:


You're quoting numbers that are completely out of context and represent a wholly different set of statistics than what you are claiming. That event win rate has almost nothing to do with actual performance, and everything to do with population disparity; in fact there's plenty statistics to suggest that throughout the Tukkayid event, the IS consistently outperformed the Clans per each match.

The reason the Clans won at all was because of population disparity, plain and simple. And we already all know about -MS- and what they've been up to.

"don't brawl", are you serious? The Thunderbolt-5SS has DOUBLE RANGE on MPLs so that they are effectively Large Lasers *PLUS* heat reduction *PLUS cooldown; the 9SE (which I use to troll pug matches) fires 3 LPL like they're medium lasers (while simultaneously doing double-gauss damage) at LL max range; the Thunderbolt also manages to have a compact hitbox with god-mode hardpoints combined with mobility that allows it to advance with almost complete impunity, where as the Timberwolve's ears will pop off with a mere 2 alphas from any of your precious IS superquirk laser boats.

The superquirked IS mechs stomp all over any competition in the game, especially other non-quirked IS mechs. The Grid Iron with a single Gauss Rifle has more DPS than a double-gauss Jagermech or King Crab.

It's a complete joke, nothing but a gimimckry B.S. contest; and you try to justify it with a fake boogeyman ghost story about the Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

The only justified complaints about the Stormcrow are that its hitboxes need the Jenner treatment & that Streak-6s need range reduced to 270, plus a possible ghost heat scale increase. Everything else is totally ignorant hogwash.


To all the other IS players instantly jumping on the cry bandwagon here: You Don't Know What You Are Talking About.

You haven't played Clan Mechs. You haven't experienced how one-sided the Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball is without having your own Stalker/Thunderbolt deathball to counter it.

I've been on both sides of this, and the favor is overwhelmingly on the side of the IS superquirked mechs.


As I stated before: the problem here is the quirks. Fix the quirks, provide nerfs to Streak-6 boating, let the tonnage be the same for both sides, and work out the balance from there.

You trollin right? The TDR has a compact model / hitbox? They gave it ST structure quirks because its so fat and juicy.

The 5SS has an optimal of 353m with quirks and modules, which is less than a IS LL (450) base range. I'm not going to bother refuting anything else you have to say regarding mech or equipment balance since its obvious you have no F'ing clue what you are talking about.

Yes, the 60% / 53% clan win rate does not represent everything, but it does represent the in match balance when done over a large enough sample of matches. (Tukayyid being an especially good example because you can drill down and see the different premade 12 man win%).

What the win rate does not represent, is population imbalance / territory gained, which is IRRELEVANT when discussing faction/mech balance.