103 replies to this topic

[Weepy Wanebow]

I'm starting this because I have a hard time following an argument on a billion different threads and am looking for there to be one place that people can discuss what works and doesn't work with CW as we ll as considering what would make it a better experience.

I personally like CW better then the solo options so I'm curious what people's thoughts are on the topic....

[Skarlock]

IMO the biggest thing, maybe the ONLY major thing they need to fix for CW before they work on anything else, is the wait time. I can't stand waiting 15 minutes for a match to *possibly* start. During the Tukayyid event, it was the most fun I've ever had in CW simply because it was the fastest way to get a game. I spent maybe 1 minute waiting and 30 minutes actually *playing* the game. As a solo pugger, sure, sometimes I got stomped, sometimes I got in with a great pre-made group and we did the stomping, sometimes the games were fairly close and hard fought. Granted, I was on the clan side, so I got instant games. The IS side definitely suffered with the huge wait which isn't fair, and I'm sure caused a lot of people to not even bother attempting to participate in the event.

The bottom line though, is we don't have the population necessary to have a bunch of separate factions with limited borders to the other factions all fighting on different worlds and opting to attack or defend. It takes too damn long to start a freaking game because of this segregation. Take down the walls preventing players that actually want to fight against each other and that will go a long way to actually getting people to *play* CW. I don't give a damn about cannon or lore or any of that BS, just fix it so I have the ability to get in an actual game. If they have to cut the group size to 4? Fine. If they have to allow people from separate factions to group up to attack? Fine. They need to just do whatever it takes for matches to actually start, and the ridiculous wait times to stop, because any other issue comes secondary if games simply aren't happening.

[Surn]

The addition of maps is a big positive. However the planets need terrain to link maps to.

http://homeworld.mechreg.org\sectorsmap.swf

Edited by MechregSurn, 12 May 2015 - 01:39 PM.

[Apnu]

1) More game modes that cater to more than just one type of player (CTF, King of the Hill, Escort, Conquest and so on)
2) Faster game matching
3) Planetary rewards
4) Quick games -- want to get more pubbies in CW? Make some of the games take less time.

In a word: DEPTH

There are many different kinds of players in MWO. Some are lore junkies, some are logistics and galactic strategy junkies, some are pure min-maxing powergamers, some are goofy builders, some are collectors. And of those groups there are tryhards and causals in each.

For the game to be successful, CW needs something for each of these types, otherwise CW will continue to be the class warfare that it is now.

[Adamski]

Once they add in the scouting / garrison missions for 4v4 it should breathe some new life into CW. Both by allowing players to determine the invasion path and planets (no more dead ends), but also by allowing smaller units to get matches and PUGs to more easily form up instead of having to wait on 11 other people, only waiting on 3 other people.

[Bigbacon]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 08:48 AM, said:

Once they add in the scouting / garrison missions for 4v4 it should breathe some new life into CW. Both by allowing players to determine the invasion path and planets (no more dead ends), but also by allowing smaller units to get matches and PUGs to more easily form up instead of having to wait on 11 other people, only waiting on 3 other people.

you'll just end up with 4 solos vs 4 tryhard meta bangers and nothing changes.

CW needs more players and to get htat, the entire game needs more players and they need to make it fun for all, not fun some few. Long wait times, long matches, and bad maps don't help.

[sycocys]

Well technically everything in CW 'works', but it is just a flat experience with nothing that really engages players to make them want to come back.

The biggest thing missing is any sort of depth to make it stand on its own two feet, with what we have now you may as well just fold the standard queue right in because there's really very little that actually separates the two other than 1 forced goal.

[Apnu]

Bigbacon, on 12 May 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

you'll just end up with 4 solos vs 4 tryhard meta bangers and nothing changes.

CW needs more players and to get htat, the entire game needs more players and they need to make it fun for all, not fun some few. Long wait times, long matches, and bad maps don't help.

They need to combine the queues.

Move the Assault, Skirmish and Conquest game modes into CW. Make players align with a faction (even if its for 24 hours), and when they look for a game they're on a team with others of the same faction in a game on some planet that's active. When the match is over, they win some LP (less than in Invasion/Counter Attack) c-bills and MXP/GXP as normal. Then they can attack again and rinse/repeat. They come back to a screen showing them the IS map and what's going on.

Doing it this way gets players looking at the IS map and thinking about it and their faction. From there its tiny steps to get them involved in deeper map and faction play.

Provided there are deeper game modes beyond Invasion/Counter Attack.

[Adamski]

Apnu, on 12 May 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

They need to combine the queues.

Move the Assault, Skirmish and Conquest game modes into CW. Make players align with a faction (even if its for 24 hours), and when they look for a game they're on a team with others of the same faction in a game on some planet that's active. When the match is over, they win some LP (less than in Invasion/Counter Attack) c-bills and MXP/GXP as normal. Then they can attack again and rinse/repeat. They come back to a screen showing them the IS map and what's going on.

Doing it this way gets players looking at the IS map and thinking about it and their faction. From there its tiny steps to get them involved in deeper map and faction play.

Provided there are deeper game modes beyond Invasion/Counter Attack.

No

Leave the General Queue SEPERATE from the CW Queue, so that pilots have a place to learn their mechs and skill them up without negatively impacting their faction (or trolling an enemy faction).

The General Queue is already divided and partitioned into Solo Only, Small Groups, and Large groups, they even threw a skill matching algorithm on top, and there are just as many if not more 12-1 style stomps there than there are in CW.

[Dolph Hoskins]

Apnu, on 12 May 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

They need to combine the queues.

Move the Assault, Skirmish and Conquest game modes into CW. Make players align with a faction (even if its for 24 hours), and when they look for a game they're on a team with others of the same faction in a game on some planet that's active. When the match is over, they win some LP (less than in Invasion/Counter Attack) c-bills and MXP/GXP as normal. Then they can attack again and rinse/repeat. They come back to a screen showing them the IS map and what's going on.

Doing it this way gets players looking at the IS map and thinking about it and their faction. From there its tiny steps to get them involved in deeper map and faction play.

Provided there are deeper game modes beyond Invasion/Counter Attack.

YES!



I was thinking something very similar to that.

[Apnu]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

No

Leave the General Queue SEPERATE from the CW Queue, so that pilots have a place to learn their mechs and skill them up without negatively impacting their faction (or trolling an enemy faction).

The General Queue is already divided and partitioned into Solo Only, Small Groups, and Large groups, they even threw a skill matching algorithm on top, and there are just as many if not more 12-1 style stomps there than there are in CW.

The seperation only drives players away from CW. Look at CW right now, its a ghost town. Last night I on my faction tab I saw maybe 30 odd players. This was at 9 PM Central Time, that's prime play hours for North America.

All I'm saying is move the game modes into CW. They don't have to flip shards on a planet, but they should align players to a faction so they get used to being in a faction and playing for a faction. And I'm saying give them a trickle of LP. When they go full planet mode, say clicking on an actual planet and joining that planet's queue, then they can get a firehose of LP.

As for newbie curb stomping, that solution is also very simple. All cadets play cadets. When you get your cadet bonus fully unlocked, you get to leave the kiddie pool for the adult pool.

Separation of the queues only babies players and teaches them bad game habits. Those same habits is what destroys them in CW. It destroys them in PQ too, but since everybody's doing it, you can't see it as well. So they go back to PQ and we have the class war we have now between PQ and CW.

If you CW-lovers ever want see this thing really take off, you have to get the pubbies looking and caring about the IS map. Making their 15 minute quickie games matter in some small way gets us there.

No one else has an idea of how to get there. And PGI is convinced of keeping these things separate even though Russ moans about all the buckets in every town hall. PGI's decision to keep the PQ and CW games separated is dead wrong and its killing the game's population.

[WANTED]

I think PGI should look at WWIIONLINE for how a persistent map works. Yes game has terrible graphics but they have taking towns in Europe mean something and factories can be bombed behind enemy lines reducing their tech research as well as resupply efforts. Its a good starting point for PGI to build from in terms of CW.

Edited by WANTED, 12 May 2015 - 11:13 AM.

[Adamski]

Apnu, on 12 May 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

The seperation only drives players away from CW. Look at CW right now, its a ghost town. Last night I on my faction tab I saw maybe 30 odd players. This was at 9 PM Central Time, that's prime play hours for North America.

All I'm saying is move the game modes into CW. They don't have to flip shards on a planet, but they should align players to a faction so they get used to being in a faction and playing for a faction. And I'm saying give them a trickle of LP. When they go full planet mode, say clicking on an actual planet and joining that planet's queue, then they can get a firehose of LP.

As for newbie curb stomping, that solution is also very simple. All cadets play cadets. When you get your cadet bonus fully unlocked, you get to leave the kiddie pool for the adult pool.

Separation of the queues only babies players and teaches them bad game habits. Those same habits is what destroys them in CW. It destroys them in PQ too, but since everybody's doing it, you can't see it as well. So they go back to PQ and we have the class war we have now between PQ and CW.

If you CW-lovers ever want see this thing really take off, you have to get the pubbies looking and caring about the IS map. Making their 15 minute quickie games matter in some small way gets us there.

No one else has an idea of how to get there. And PGI is convinced of keeping these things separate even though Russ moans about all the buckets in every town hall. PGI's decision to keep the PQ and CW games separated is dead wrong and its killing the game's population.

You completely fail to address the points I raised or even grasp why they are relevant.

General Queue or Public Queue is currently divided into 3 buckets:
1. Solo Players
2. Small Groups
3. Large Groups

Each of these 3 buckets has players matched against one another based on pilot skill.
This is the closest PGI can make matches without causing overly long wait times for a match.
You are more likely to get stomped 12-1 in these matches than you are in CW.

Your idea further segregates players based on faction in the public queue (increasing wait times by reducing the pool of players to draw on for teams), but does nothing to improve the experience of any of the players.

The reason CW is a ghost town is because the map was just reset and we just finished a huge week long CW event which burned out a lot of the CW players. Any time PGI runs a CW event, it has more than enough players, which means it is more likely an effort / reward problem than anything structural with the player base.

[Apnu]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 11:23 AM, said:

You completely fail to address the points I raised or even grasp why they are relevant.

General Queue or Public Queue is currently divided into 3 buckets:
1. Solo Players
2. Small Groups
3. Large Groups

Each of these 3 buckets has players matched against one another based on pilot skill.
This is the closest PGI can make matches without causing overly long wait times for a match.
You are more likely to get stomped 12-1 in these matches than you are in CW.

Your idea further segregates players based on faction in the public queue (increasing wait times by reducing the pool of players to draw on for teams), but does nothing to improve the experience of any of the players.

The reason CW is a ghost town is because the map was just reset and we just finished a huge week long CW event which burned out a lot of the CW players. Any time PGI runs a CW event, it has more than enough players, which means it is more likely an effort / reward problem than anything structural with the player base.

Actually there are more buckets than you say. There are three buckets for each game mode and three for each group type. So that's 9 buckets, not 3. And that's exactly why Russ moans about buckets in the Town Halls.

I did address it, you're missing my point and making assumptions instead of asking for clarifications. Anyway, keep it simple. I say haul that stuff into CW. Those buckets, keep them. Elo? Keep it. Maps? Keep them too.
All that changes is 1) players have to be aligned to a faction. No lone wolves, they have to take a contract with a faction, even if its for a day only. Then 2) those players wind up on a team of other players in that faction and they play a game. Notice I never said they had to click on a planet. The planet selection would be whatever planet is in contest between the two factions. If there must be faction rewards beyond LP, why not give the faction some kind of bonus timer upon wining. Say 2% discount in the c-bill store for 1 hour -- something like that.

But in either case, players should be strongly encouraged to be part of a faction for some period of time and get used to fighting with that faction. Its a baby step to getting players used to faction alignment and looking at the IS map and wanting to do something with it.

Stuff like this ups the immersion factor and gets the player more invested in the outcome of the whole game, not their meaningless, throwaway, grind-fests in the Public Queue.

CW is a ghost town because it caters to only one kind of player who is a minority group in MWO. Players were burned out on CW months ago. Leading up to Russ' announcement of a map reset, before he announced Tukayyid, I was watching CW's numbers dwindle nightly. Comp teams I'd seen on a regular basis had left, PUGs avoided it and derrided CW in chat. Tukayyid was a big deal only because of all the shiny PGI bribed the players with. Once that shiny went away, players went right back to ignoring CW. We saw the exact same pattern with the first CW event. Everybody flooded in for free stuffs, then everybody bailed once all the free stuff was gone.

Separation of the two player groups is killing CW.

Players clearly feel the rewards are better and the game is more fun in the Public Queue than in CW. Merging the two so that CW's current modes, Invasion and Counter Attack are just some other modes will increase both efforts and rewards in CW, it will also cut down on burnout because players can flow easily from one mode to another.
Also "Community Warfare" should involve the community, its not much of a community thing when 80% of the player base avoids it. Combining the modes does away with all that.

Edited by Apnu, 12 May 2015 - 11:54 AM.

[Adamski]

You are still restricting teams to a mono faction, which will increase wait times or reduce the quality of matches, for no gain to the players other than a nebulous "faction pride".

Players dont necessarily find PQ more fun than CW, they just know its a shorter wait AND a shorter match. Except during CW events where CW has roughly the same wait time as PQ (if PGI ever figures out how to herd the uncommitted players towards the underpopulated factions).

[August55]

Ghost drops being replaced by AI opponents would be interesting.

[Adamski]

August55, on 12 May 2015 - 12:02 PM, said:

Ghost drops being replaced by AI opponents would be interesting.

Agreed, lots and lots of AI tanks or enemy mechs so that Ghost Drops have similar payouts to a standard CW match.

[Moldur]

I strongly agree that some sort of PvE mechanic should be mixed into the PvP of CW.

Addition of other units like tanks and the like would also be neat, though I don't know if they would really work out well on our current maps.

Ideally, I would have liked CW to be more like the missions from the other Mechwarrior titles where you go in with a lance (or in this case, 3 lances) on a large map, laying waste to vehicles, enemy mechs, and completing the objectives for the mission. The respawn mechanic would also be different to fit this game mode, something more akin to say, Insurgency's push mode, where Defenders have more waves (since it's their home turf) but longer wait times while the attackers start with less waves, but have faster respawn waves and gain more waves and more time for each objective they take. However all of this would require a total reworking and I doubt PGI will ever do something like that.

There are a lot of things about CW that could be done better, large and small. The game modes take forever and don't ensure a large payout. The game modes aren't particularly more exciting than the regular queue. The planetary capture process is slow, and means nothing. The list goes on.

Here's one thing I don't see talked about much: Whether you're defending or attacking, it doesn't really feel that different. Both sides get 4 drops, both sides cluster up. One side moves alittle more than the other. Nothing feels dynamic about. There is no sense that the attackers are claiming anything, or that the defenders are losing ground. Look at games like Planetside 2, or even Red Orchestra 2 where the attacking team is actually pushing the defending team back to a position of retreat, continuously doing so until the last defending stronghold is wiped out. Mechwarrior needs more of that.

(Again, requiring a total map/CW rework) Imagine that you're the defending team, instead of a dropship, you boot up your mech in a hangar (a la MW4 intro) your lance stomps out of the hangar, rows of tanks and Mobile missile platforms sit there idly. You stomp out of the large inner gates of the base, then the small outer gates. You face the attackers in no man's land, enemy and friendly mechs get blown up, both sides keep getting reinforced (in waves), eventually the attackers get a lucky break and wipe out your entire front line in-between defender reinforcement waves. Your team sits anxiously waiting for the respawn wave, knowing that the enemy team is gaining ground unopposed You boot up your next mech, the base defenses are firing. The tanks and other vehicles from earlier are mobilized now. You stomp out of the large inner gates once again, the outer gate is closed this time, but the attackers quickly destroy it (+attacker reinforcement waves, +time) small AP turrets fire wholly ineffective rounds at the attacking mechs, friendly tanks are helping, but not much. The attackers blow up [some objective in your outer base] (+attacker reinforcement waves, +time) . The rest of your surviving teammates are mopped up by the opposition. Your team respawns, the inner gates are now closed. You see the turrets on the wall taking fire. Your team groups up in waiting. The gate generator is down and the gate opens slowly. The attackers rush in Both teams, large clusters, violent brawling. Now you're out of waves. The mech hangar's blast doors close. Your team is formed up in a firing line/body shield in an attempt to keep the enemy team from destroying your [last objective]. More brawling, you lose. Oh no. etc.

Not every round would have to go like that. Maps that are completely different, but still retain the same game mode (objectives and 'milestones') would be a huge improvement instead of right now where we have 5 or 6 maps that look different, but play almost the same besides some terrain differences. I mean, that much is doable right now.

Edited by Moldur, 12 May 2015 - 01:09 PM.

[Apnu]

Adamski, on 12 May 2015 - 12:00 PM, said:

You are still restricting teams to a mono faction, which will increase wait times or reduce the quality of matches, for no gain to the players other than a nebulous "faction pride".

Players dont necessarily find PQ more fun than CW, they just know its a shorter wait AND a shorter match. Except during CW events where CW has roughly the same wait time as PQ (if PGI ever figures out how to herd the uncommitted players towards the underpopulated factions).

No I'm not, you're putting words in my mouth. Teams can still sign up for contracts like now. 1 day, 7 day, 28 day, forever. If they want to tour the Inner Sphere's factions and farm LP they can.

You do have a point about "faction pride" but that assumes CW will always be what it is now and there will be no logistics, or planet perks and so on to reward the faction for doing well flipping planets. Russ and PGI has said a few times they want to get to that stuff, but they're still working on core CW stuff. Personally I wouldn't have launched CW unless I had something like that on day one, but I don't run the company, PGI will do what PGI thinks is best.

As for the rest, that is pure speculation on your part. I ask players in PQ about CW. Most that reply state how much the loathe it. The rest are silent.

CW is an inch deep and an inch wide, Russ has even admitted as much. Also CW frowns on bringing your favorite mech, preferring quirked cheese en masse. Nobody seems to like that. Few in HHoD like taking the standard IS 240 drop deck (STK-4N, TDR, some trash 50/55 ton medium, and FS9), they'd like to bring other mechs but CW's map designs and the quirks say otherwise.

Sure mech design is a factor in these decisions, but also the map and the mode impact selection choices. These CW maps are set up with known, obvious, paths to the objective, with obvious terrain kill-boxes set up along the way, and those boxes are set up in such a way that 400m-600m is perfect for pouring fire.

There are no modes for small groups and units, and CW is constantly nagging PUGs to go in there and be the minnows fed to sharks. Many players have trained themselves to ignore the Call-to-Arms. CW is repetitive and caters to only one kind of player.

One thing most MWO players can agree on is they want depth in CW. Merging the existing game modes is a way to get on that path quickly w/out waiting 3 more years for more CW game modes.

Depth means having more to do in CW for other types of players. More players playing games that matter to the greater universe of the game means everybody's having a good day.

[Adamski]

I'm not wanting PGI to add AI bots / tanks to regular CW matches, only to the Ghost Drops, so that they can pay out better and possibly take longer than 150s to complete. Especially now that PGI has the Ghost Defense drops where you dont even gain a territory marker.

Ugh, sorry, restricting the matchmaker to mono factions not restricting teams. Which leaves my point intact that doing so will reduce the quality or speed of PQ matches for no discernible benefit, except for players to possibly yell at the bads more because you know they are on your faction.

Your suggestion does nothing for CW Map design, so I'm not sure why you are bringing those up, but I agree they need work.

CW is going to get 4v4 sometime this summer / fall, which is when we will see if the new maps for that allow for more mech variation.

And increased mech variation will also require PGI to do more balance passes, so that IS 55t mediums can challenge a SCR without requiring an Ace shot at the helm.