70 replies to this topic

[Chrome Magnus]

There's just too much ecm with how it currently works. Carrying tag doesn't mean jack when there are so many overlapping ECM mechs and you can't just sit there and face tank with your less effective weapon. Yes they still work well in some games where there isn't a glut of ECM or the enemy decides to ignore you or whatever but there def is too much many effective counters for them to consistently perform well.

[El Bandito]

Chrome Magnus, on 15 May 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

There's just too much ecm with how it currently works. Carrying tag doesn't mean jack when there are so many overlapping ECM mechs and you can't just sit there and face tank with your less effective weapon. Yes they still work well in some games where there isn't a glut of ECM or the enemy decides to ignore you or whatever but there def is too much many effective counters for them to consistently perform well.

Yep. Consistent, LRMs are not.

Larger launchers are basically long range SSRMs, without the added benefit of Light murdering. Only the LRM5 and LRM10 are ammo efficient due to less spread.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 May 2015 - 05:47 PM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Weapon Matches Fired Hit Accuracy Time Equip. Damage
LRM 15 51 204,405 92,599 45.30% 06:00:33 94,267

Doh! It slipped, it was at 47%. I been lazy.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 15 May 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Sable]

I would like to suggest that ammo may not be the problem but ECM in mass is the problem. There's too much bubble protection. ECM needs to be split into two catagories, basic ECM for personal use on an individual mech and then the bubble ECM which should be twice as heavy in order for some sacrifices to be made for its use.

[OznerpaG]

Chrome Magnus, on 15 May 2015 - 05:38 PM, said:

There's just too much ecm with how it currently works. Carrying tag doesn't mean jack when there are so many overlapping ECM mechs and you can't just sit there and face tank with your less effective weapon. Yes they still work well in some games where there isn't a glut of ECM or the enemy decides to ignore you or whatever but there def is too much many effective counters for them to consistently perform well.

i repeat - point TAG at any mech, TAG nullifies ECM no matter if that mech has ECM equipped and/or there are 200 mechs with ECM around it

TAG kills ECM, but don't expect to play a couple games with any mech and expect LRMs to magically give you results - it's a whole different ballgame and you need to learn a new set of tactics to implement them properly. direct fire tactics don't work with LRM tactics, and vice-versa

Edited by JagdFlanker, 15 May 2015 - 06:10 PM.

[Chagatay]

JagdFlanker, on 15 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

i repeat - point TAG at any mech, TAG nullifies ECM no matter if that mech has ECM equipped and/or there are 200 mechs with ECM around it

TAG kills ECM, but don't expect to play a couple games with any mech and expect LRMs to magically give you results - it's a whole different ballgame and you need to learn a new set of tactics to implement them properly. direct fire tactics don't work with LRM tactics, and vice-versa

But...TAG is literally that....direct fire tactics with missiles. The problem with this is that they are rather piss poor substitutes for direct fire weapons. Nothing says kill you faster than a red laser pointer. The main reason to take them (if you take them) is for indirect fire.

The other thing you run into is that even with TAG you can be locked out if you are within a bubble of ECM.

[Ollorin]

The Treb is still a great mech IMHO. For a medium LRM mech: 1) 1080 LRM ammo is about the mininum I would take, 2) Always bring "backup" weapons.

I say "backup" because personally I think of them more as secondary weapons. At the start of the match I use the LRMs to do as much damage as I can, softening up targets and killing 1 or 2 if the opportunity presents itself. Generally I'll fire: grouped at assaults, grouped at heavies and switching to chain fire if their torso opens up, and chain fired for mediums and lights. If an enemy gets it close I let them have it with my secondary weapons (on mediums it's typically 4-5 MLL or MPL). Once my LRMs are spent I focus on taking out vulnerable targets with my secondary weapons. So far this approach is yielding me good results.

As far as LRM focused builds I started out with the Treb, my favorite being the 3C:
TBT-3C

After I maxed out my skills on the trenchbucket, I gave the Hunchback 4J a try and fell head over heels for it. Great little LRM mech.

HBK-4J

Edited by Ollorin, 15 May 2015 - 07:43 PM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

I don't have the 3C anymore, needed the mech bay slot at the time, but your post tempts me buy one again. With it's quirks I would use LRM10's though. Still decent damage but less spread. Check out the quirks on the 3M if you like the LRM15's. Plus you get JJ's for the mobility. I have grown to be a big fan of mobility lately. That's why I don't LRM in heavies or assaults at all. May some day try the Catapult for fun, but it's way down the list of mechs to mess with.

The latest iteration.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 15 May 2015 - 08:00 PM.

[El Bandito]

JagdFlanker, on 15 May 2015 - 06:08 PM, said:

i repeat - point TAG at any mech, TAG nullifies ECM no matter if that mech has ECM equipped and/or there are 200 mechs with ECM around it

TAG kills ECM, but don't expect to play a couple games with any mech and expect LRMs to magically give you results - it's a whole different ballgame and you need to learn a new set of tactics to implement them properly. direct fire tactics don't work with LRM tactics, and vice-versa

1. TAG basically paints a large bulls eye on yourself, screaming "I'M HERE, HIT ME!", all the while you have to stare at the enemy for 2 full seconds, revealing your position to all hostile forces.

2. TAG takes a precious energy slot, that could have been used for another back up laser.

Not saying TAG is not the answer to ECM, but compared to ECM, TAG tax requires way more sacrifice than ECM.
Then there is the Radar Derp module.


The solution to this? I can think of two.

1. Make a separate TAG slot, one that does not take energy hardpoint. Preferably high mounted.

2. Make TAG invisible to the enemy unless seen in heat vision mode. As per lore, TAG laser is infrared.

Quote

TAG utilizes several systems at once to accurately mark the target. The first is a multi-frequency laser emission diode which paints the target with an infrared laser beam for a smart weapon to track.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 May 2015 - 12:16 AM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Target Decay nullifies Radar Derp, i.e. they cancel each other out. Still, your own LOS always superior to in-direct spotting.

[El Bandito]

Romeo Deluxe, on 15 May 2015 - 08:09 PM, said:

Still, your own LOS always superior to in-direct spotting.

And then the issue will be how to TAG the ECM covered enemy without having everyone on the opposite team immediately know your location by tracing the bright red beam. Hence my suggestion above.

Edited by El Bandito, 15 May 2015 - 08:14 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Carrying tag doesn't mean jack when there are so many overlapping ECM mechs and you can't just sit there and face tank with your less effective weapon.

TAG doesnt work as a counter to ECM anyway. Because you have to hold the TAG on target for the entire flight duration of the missiles. But as soon as you launch missiles the target is notified, ducks behind cover, and breaks LoS with your TAG.

NARC is the only thing that even remotely works for LRMs right now. And even thats not great...

Edited by Khobai, 15 May 2015 - 08:20 PM.

[Romeo Deluxe]

Therein we agree, I never use TAG anymore for the same reason. I still do quite well without while running LRM's.

Khobai, on 15 May 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

TAG doesnt work as a counter to ECM anyway. Because you have to hold the TAG on target for the entire flight duration of the missiles. But as soon as you launch missiles the target is notified, ducks behind cover, and breaks LoS with your TAG.

NARC is the only thing that even remotely works for LRMs right now. And even thats not great...

I fight at 200-300m, slavos are rarely escaped. I get ansy further out and super picky about launcing a salvo, never launching one further than 600m. The LRM's are for suppression to knock away the opponents standing off from a brawl and shooting in on it. Also to help some light dueling someone and I can see clearly on the map that the opponent is exposed, about the only time I use in-direct spotting. Although I do it from time to time, I consider it a waste of missiles to shoot salvo after salvo into an opponent 'until it dies'. Once the ammo is gone I charge right into the brawl. Those little lasers aren't too bad, they force me in close which works perfectly. I aim for key parts like Direwolf shoulders, even gave that maneuver a name, call it declawing them.

Edited by Romeo Deluxe, 15 May 2015 - 08:34 PM.

[Novakaine]

FIX MY LRMS NOW!

[Clownwarlord]

Novakaine, on 15 May 2015 - 10:46 PM, said:

FIX MY LRMS NOW!

How about no ...

[YueFei]

I'm not 100% sure, but I think I saw Jman5 using a technique where he only briefly taps a target with TAG, then ducks behind cover, then pops up somewhere else to "refresh" the target lock, and then disappears again. He repeats this until he's got the lock and keeps firing while refreshing the lock periodically.

This allows him to get past ECM without face-tanking everything while trying to TAG full time.

I think he's right that it requires Advanced Target Decay to pull off, though...

And I'm not sure if it also requires that the victim does not have Radar Deprivation.

Someone should do some experiments for SCIENCE ™ !

[Roadbuster]

LRMs are somewhat ok.
Imho, the problem is the way ECM works and that ECM stacks.

Pure LRM boats are pretty crappy in most matches. Without NARC or TAG and backup weapons they can be totally useless.

Either reduce ECM effect to what it should be or improve LRM tracking/damage while increasing cooldown.
Just try taking a LRM boat with 2-3 LRM10 or LRM15 with or without Artemis and NARC/TAG into training grounds and compare the time, heat and ammo it takes to kill the mechs there.
And they are not behind cover or move...

Also ECM > AMS.
I've yet to hear someone complain about multiple AMS being OP, because very few even equip it.
Reducing ECM effectiveness might make AMS more desirable again.

bad arcade kitty, on 15 May 2015 - 03:52 PM, said:

it's because flamer's heat raises non-linearly and you should chain fire two of them

Chain fire on Flamers does nothing. There is no cooldown, so the game calculates heat as if you would keep firing a single Flamer.

[Kilo 40]

ThisMachineKillsFascists, on 16 May 2015 - 02:35 AM, said:

Those ppl who use it should l2p instead QQ ing on Forums.

the irony is palpable.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 15 May 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

All ammo based weapons in MWO tend to require more ammo mounted than their BT counterparts. On the same token, energy weapons require more heatsinks in MWO than BT, which makes it "fair." (But not ideal).

All ammo based weapons feel like they need more ammo. That is because the game is not over in under 2 minutes (12 turns). TT feels like a drawn out long battle because of teh dice rolling. My 6 hour long slug fests usually ended before the 12th turn, Thats even with Trinary on Trinary combat. There is Fluff that says most Mechs only carry enough ammo for 1-2 minutes worth of sustained fire.

Mech fights sound like a long drawn out fight in the books. But they are not. they are brutal, and end quickly.

[DarthHias]

Roadbuster, on 16 May 2015 - 02:17 AM, said:

Chain fire on Flamers does nothing. There is no cooldown, so the game calculates heat as if you would keep firing a single Flamer.

It does. Flamer heat is calculated by time of use, meaning two on chainfire will not create absurd amounts of heat.
I tried and it does work.