757 replies to this topic

[Fenris Kell]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 05:25 AM, said:

MWO makes most of it's money from the purchase of mechbays, premium time, Heroes and cosmetics as well.
LoL makes a lot of money from the purchase of RP, which is also used to unlock champions, since the grind is ungodly there as well.


I am of that opinion, I also said I don't agree with the nerfs used (also, there have been several reports of the nerfs being quite frankly ineffective. Though that comes from people that aren't playing pure lazervomit). They did make it so that people aren't running pure energy boats on those two mechs without a penalty (let's face it, there really wasn't much of a penalty for running excessive lasers on those mechs, even with the heat).

Just like there isn't ANY penalty for running a 7 med pulse Thunderbolt, a 6lg laser Stalker, or a Firestarter..don't even try to pretend that small percentage reduction in their previous BONUS did anything to slow the last 2 down. I have a couple dozen post patch CW matches that prove that it hasnt. They want to nerf pure energy users..ok, just don't by hypocritical about it. People use the reason that in CW you mainly see TWs and SCrows for nerfing..that's more because the clans have few other VIABLE options for drop decks. On the IS side..the good teams are using primarily Stalkers, Thunderbolts, (now Wolverines instead of 2 T-bolts), and a firestarter or raven..because they are the best for that kind of game play. I've posted video from the Tukyyid event, a match between 2 of the best units in MWO..and it was an exceedingly CLOSE game...to me that speaks of balance.

I just hope my unit doesn't switch to Clan for our next contract because now it's just gimped.

Edited by Fenris Kell, 21 May 2015 - 06:47 AM.

[Pepito Sbazzeguti]

• Compile a mech Meta-Builds list (and keep it update)
  
• In CW allow ONLY 1 Meta-Build per deck (ex. if you use a STK-4N you cannot use FS9-A, TDR-5SS... , same for clan mechs checking the number of energy weapons used per chassis)
  
• In Solo decrease the priority for using a Meta-Build (ex. if you use a STK-4N you need more time to find a match)
  
• STOP.

Your nerfing way affect every time Non Meta-Builds as well. Stop that!

Edited by Pepito Sbazzeguti, 21 May 2015 - 07:43 AM.

[IraqiWalker]

Fenris Kell, on 21 May 2015 - 06:46 AM, said:

Just like there isn't ANY penalty for running a 7 med pulse Thunderbolt, a 6lg laser Stalker, or a Firestarter..don't even try to pretend that small percentage reduction in their previous BONUS did anything to slow the last 2 down. I have a couple dozen post patch CW matches that prove that it hasnt. They want to nerf pure energy users..ok, just don't by hypocritical about it. People use the reason that in CW you mainly see TWs and SCrows for nerfing..that's more because the clans have few other VIABLE options for drop decks. On the IS side..the good teams are using primarily Stalkers, Thunderbolts, (now Wolverines instead of 2 T-bolts), and a firestarter or raven..because they are the best for that kind of game play. I've posted video from the Tukyyid event, a match between 2 of the best units in MWO..and it was an exceedingly CLOSE game...to me that speaks of balance.

I just hope my unit doesn't switch to Clan for our next contract because now it's just gimped.

Pump your brakes kid, and if you're going to quote that post, and make that reply, at least be sure to read how the conversation started.

So calm down, suck on a lollipop, and relax.

Now here are some other, more immediate, problems in your post:

1- Clan, and IS use of energy builds is not the same, so nerfing the two sides in a similar way won't accomplish much of anything. This means that your "do it to both sides equally" argument is wrong at the foundational level.

2- I already mentioned that the clans only have 2 or 3 viable mechs, the problem is that most clan tech can't receive any buffs because the two most OP mechs in the game (still are, even post quirks) are clan mechs (TBR, and SCR).


The biggest problem in this entire whine fest is that people look at this patch and think these are nerfs, when in fact, they are actual fixes to balance broken content. No other heavy in the game can match the Timberwolf, even with MPL quirks on the Wubbolts. No other medium can match the Stormcrow either. Both of those have an effective tonnage of a mech at least 20 tons heavier than them. These quirks that were added to them brought down their impact by a bit, but they are still very strong, and most TBR pilots didn't lose a step, even with the new quirks.

The Top performing IS chassis got nerfed as well, because PGI is doing the smart thing here: Find out the mechs that are performing way beyond what they should, and bring them down a notch or two.

So calm down, don't accuse people of things they aren't doing, and learn to think rationally.

Again I state: these FIXES are 6 months too late. They should have been here by now.

[Unit47]

IraqiWalker, on 20 May 2015 - 03:33 PM, said:

Yep, I sure am seeing at least 2 other mechs that are not the RVN-2X. Which, at the end of the day, proves my argument that with the 2X not being the uber best, we still have more than ONE viable competitive mech.

Jesus wtf are you smoking?

[IraqiWalker]

Unit47, on 21 May 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

Jesus wtf are you smoking?

What are you smoking? All I came out to say from the start is that saying there was only ONE viable competitive mech with the 2X out is not true. You provided the sources, and citations yourself, that backed that statement up.

I don't see how you could get confused by this.

[Unit47]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 08:29 AM, said:

What are you smoking? All I came out to say from the start is that saying there was only ONE viable competitive mech with the 2X out is not true. You provided the sources, and citations yourself, that backed that statement up.

I don't see how you could get confused by this.

The numbers are from the LAST season of RHOD which ended prior to the 2X.

How you can twist the fact that basicly only 2 light chassis - the FS and 2X - were used into proving your point is beyond me.

[Fenris Kell]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Pump your brakes kid, and if you're going to quote that post, and make that reply, at least be sure to read how the conversation started.

So calm down, suck on a lollipop, and relax.

Now here are some other, more immediate, problems in your post:

1- Clan, and IS use of energy builds is not the same, so nerfing the two sides in a similar way won't accomplish much of anything. This means that your "do it to both sides equally" argument is wrong at the foundational level.

2- I already mentioned that the clans only have 2 or 3 viable mechs, the problem is that most clan tech can't receive any buffs because the two most OP mechs in the game (still are, even post quirks) are clan mechs (TBR, and SCR).


The biggest problem in this entire whine fest is that people look at this patch and think these are nerfs, when in fact, they are actual fixes to balance broken content. No other heavy in the game can match the Timberwolf, even with MPL quirks on the Wubbolts. No other medium can match the Stormcrow either. Both of those have an effective tonnage of a mech at least 20 tons heavier than them. These quirks that were added to them brought down their impact by a bit, but they are still very strong, and most TBR pilots didn't lose a step, even with the new quirks.

The Top performing IS chassis got nerfed as well, because PGI is doing the smart thing here: Find out the mechs that are performing way beyond what they should, and bring them down a notch or two.

So calm down, don't accuse people of things they aren't doing, and learn to think rationally.

Again I state: these FIXES are 6 months too late. They should have been here by now.

First of all, I am not a kid, don't be condescending. Secondly, there was nothing in my post that implies that I am 'fired up' and need to relax. Lastly I did not accuse you or anyone of anything.

I was responding primarily to the comment in your post about, "They did make it so that people aren't running pure energy boats on those two mechs without a penalty (let's face it, there really wasn't much of a penalty for running excessive lasers on those mechs, even with the heat).". The minimal decrease in the 4Ns laser boat-ability is negligible at best. I noticed slight difference in my Firestarter, ( I can alpha 1 less time before I have to cycle to 3 and 3). Thunderwub completely untouched.

I completely disagree with your comment about how the T-bolt performs against the TWolf. Pre-patch I've watched people in my unit routinely strip out and destroy T-Wolf laservomits, and I have done/do the same, through superior DPS, and less 'face time'. Now it's even easier with the clan lasers on those 2 chassis having drastically increased burn times, which equates to a whole lot more face time if they want to do close to full dmg, Dmg which will undoubtedly be spread out or lost all together if their is cover near by. In the Thunderbolt the shots can be put on target quickly to one section allowing for immediate torso twisting or stepping back to cover.

I will post this vid again, and hope that people talking about how out of balance things are watch it. I argue that when two units with comparable skill have a game this close the balance is pretty close as well. If they are going to hammer the primary clan laser mechs, it is hypocritical to leave the IS laser mechs that perform as well as, (or given the circumstance better than), their Clan counterparts alone.

[IraqiWalker]

Unit47, on 21 May 2015 - 08:44 AM, said:

The numbers are from the LAST season of RHOD which ended prior to the 2X.

How you can twist the fact that basicly only 2 light chassis - the FS and 2X - were used into proving your point is beyond me.

So are you saying the RVN-3L is not viable? The SDR-5D isn't? Even the Hugginn has a place.

You said that with the 2X gone, there is only 1 viable light, and I was saying that statement is wrong. You brought up the competitive scene, and I got you to provide the stats for some of those brackets. If those brackets are the last ones, and they are out-dated, then your original argument is more speculation, and guessing, than actual knowledge of what the competitive scene.

TL;DR: You're wrong, and considering what you cited last, either you actually don't know what you're talking about, or are too stubborn to see that you're wrong.

Fenris Kell, on 21 May 2015 - 08:53 AM, said:

First of all, I am not a kid, don't be condescending. Secondly, there was nothing in my post that implies that I am 'fired up' and need to relax. Lastly I did not accuse you or anyone of anything.

I was responding primarily to the comment in your post about, "They did make it so that people aren't running pure energy boats on those two mechs without a penalty (let's face it, there really wasn't much of a penalty for running excessive lasers on those mechs, even with the heat).". The minimal decrease in the 4Ns laser boat-ability is negligible at best. I noticed slight difference in my Firestarter, ( I can alpha 1 less time before I have to cycle to 3 and 3). Thunderwub completely untouched.

I completely disagree with your comment about how the T-bolt performs against the TWolf. Pre-patch I've watched people in my unit routinely strip out and destroy T-Wolf laservomits, and I have done/do the same, through superior DPS, and less 'face time'. Now it's even easier with the clan lasers on those 2 chassis having drastically increased burn times, which equates to a whole lot more face time if they want to do close to full dmg, Dmg which will undoubtedly be spread out or lost all together if their is cover near by. In the Thunderbolt the shots can be put on target quickly to one section allowing for immediate torso twisting or stepping back to cover.

I will post this vid again, and hope that people talking about how out of balance things are watch it. I argue that when two units with comparable skill have a game this close the balance is pretty close as well. If they are going to hammer the primary clan laser mechs, it is hypocritical to leave the IS laser mechs that perform as well as, (or given the circumstance better than), their Clan counterparts alone.

You accused either myself or PGI of being hypocritical (the phrasing in your post could go either way). As for the reduction of buffs to the STK and FS9. I would rather they go with the baby steps approach, than the sledgehammer (Paul's patented approach).

Now sure, the TDR is still very strong. The difference is that it's best laser ste up, is not effective past 350 meters While the same cannot be said of a TBR running ERMLs that are decent up to 600 meters. The TDR is literally the only heavy we have right now that can try and match the T-Wolf, Mainly because it has so many quirks. When they are reduced (they probably will be), the T-Wolf is gonna have no real competitors other than the Black knight (Unless PGI decides to help me out here, and introduce the FLASHMAN!!!)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 May 2015 - 09:17 AM.

[Unit47]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

So are you saying the RVN-3L is not viable? The SDR-5D isn't? Even the Hugginn has a place.

You said that with the 2X gone, there is only 1 viable light, and I was saying that statement is wrong. You brought up the competitive scene, and I got you to provide the stats for some of those brackets. If those brackets are the last ones, and they are out-dated, then your original argument is more speculation, and guessing, than actual knowledge of what the competitive scene.

Thank you for proving my earlier point.

You are still unable to read and understand the cited data.

You have absolutely zero understanding how the game mechanics work and how they influence chassis/loadout choice in comp play.

Thats completely fine and dandy, just stop talking about stuff you don't understand.

[Bluttrunken]

Point in case: How are people able to fill 34 pages with a discussion about quirks which they can't have thouroughly tested. Oh wait Internet Logic.

All I can say atm: I adore my Stormcrow and I always thought it's too powerful. Some builds I had a 60 point Alpha on 1.7 HtMgmt.... ????

I didn't test my dequirked Stormcrow so far and will hold back any statement regarding the applied quirks until then.

And all you nerds might want to play the game a bit instead of raging on the forum.

Edited by k05h3lk1n, 21 May 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Yokaiko]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 09:17 AM, said:

Now sure, the TDR is still very strong. The difference is that it's best laser ste up, is not effective past 350 meters While the same cannot be said of a TBR running ERMLs that are decent up to 600 meters. The TDR is literally the only heavy we have right now that can try and match the T-Wolf, Mainly because it has so many quirks. When they are reduced (they probably will be), the T-Wolf is gonna have no real competitors other than the Black knight (Unless PGI decides to help me out here, and introduce the FLASHMAN!!!)

So what you are saying is that a 7 MPL Thud sucks RIGHT at the end of optimal but Timber with only 4 er-mlas is great at optimal + 50%

Go build that mech add range modes and check the range on your TDR-5SS 350 is INSIDE its optimal range, its doing full damage.

[Clownwarlord]

I have had this broken down for me by more inteligent people:

First off I am only going to give the explination as best I can for the Timber Wolf. The negatives of the quirks for the Timber Wolf really only do two things ... drive down the dps (damage per second) and help in overall cooling due to energy weapons. So what this does is hurt experianced players who know how to manage heat while maximizing dps. But for new players who basically alpha blob their way through the game till they learn the finer points and because of the quirks it helps them by being cooler to run.

So yeah hurts the meta players who know what they are doing but helps the new players ... in my opinion it really isn't an issue for the greatest mech still in the game.

[IraqiWalker]

Unit47, on 21 May 2015 - 09:38 AM, said:

Thank you for proving my earlier point.

You are still unable to read and understand the cited data.

You have absolutely zero understanding how the game mechanics work and how they influence chassis/loadout choice in comp play.

Thats completely fine and dandy, just stop talking about stuff you don't understand.

This is the funny part:

You cited competitive play, and said that in competitive play, the 2X, and the FS9 are the only ones used.

When I got you to present the data from the last RHOD tournament, WHICH YOU PRESENTED. It showed different results.

Then once you noticed your mess up, you stated that it is out-dated data.

Now, I apologize, at first I thought you would be smart enough to understand what you did, but it looks like I have to spell it out for you:

Since the latest data you provided is out-dated, that means you don't know jack about the current set ups, since no tournaments have been held with them. Which means that all your blabbering about competitive play amounts to zilch, since THERE'S NO DATA TO BACK IT UP.


So, your statement about the FS9 being the only viable competitive IS light is built on a flawed foundation of both out-dated data, and lack of comprehension of that data.

It doesn't matter that the other chassis saw play only in the earlier tiers of competitive play. They still saw play in the competitive scene. Which means that at the end of the day, with 2X gone, another chassis will take it's place, aside from the FS9.

1- You brought competitive play into the discussion
2- You brought competitve play data that refuted your statements
3- You cited that data as being out-dated, while showing that there is no new data from the competitive scene
4- This means you have no new data from the competitive scene.

Spoiler

Even if you had data from one or two competitive teams, doesn't necessarily mean you have data from all the teams, and you never know what surprises might get tossed your way

Thank you for joining us on another episode of Brought Data, Don't Know How to Use It.

I am your host IraqiWalker, and I bid you good night

(At this point I recommend either realizing your mistake, or going on a self-reflection journey)

clownwarlord, on 21 May 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I have had this broken down for me by more inteligent people:

First off I am only going to give the explination as best I can for the Timber Wolf. The negatives of the quirks for the Timber Wolf really only do two things ... drive down the dps (damage per second) and help in overall cooling due to energy weapons. So what this does is hurt experianced players who know how to manage heat while maximizing dps. But for new players who basically alpha blob their way through the game till they learn the finer points and because of the quirks it helps them by being cooler to run.

So yeah hurts the meta players who know what they are doing but helps the new players ... in my opinion it really isn't an issue for the greatest mech still in the game.

In all fairness, experienced players who know what they're doing aren't really hurt by it. Most of them have already adjusted.

[IraqiWalker]

Yokaiko, on 21 May 2015 - 10:15 AM, said:

So what you are saying is that a 7 MPL Thud sucks RIGHT at the end of optimal but Timber with only 4 er-mlas is great at optimal + 50%

Go build that mech add range modes and check the range on your TDR-5SS 350 is INSIDE its optimal range, its doing full damage.

Modules don't mean jack. If we count the modules for the TDR, then we should count modules for the TBR as well, which ends up giving up more range advantage to the TBR actually.

Also, I don't know what you /imagined/ I said. The TDR doesn't SUCK at 350 meters. Just that it starts to be less effective beyond that range for the heat cost. While the TBR with up to 7 ERMLs can hit for decent damage up to 600 meters. (If you want, you can swap the ERMLs for ERSLs, ERSPLs, or ERMPLs. Most of those are better options than the ER-ML, depending on the range you want to use)

[Fenris Kell]

clownwarlord, on 21 May 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

I have had this broken down for me by more inteligent people:

First off I am only going to give the explination as best I can for the Timber Wolf. The negatives of the quirks for the Timber Wolf really only do two things ... drive down the dps (damage per second) and help in overall cooling due to energy weapons. So what this does is hurt experianced players who know how to manage heat while maximizing dps. But for new players who basically alpha blob their way through the game till they learn the finer points and because of the quirks it helps them by being cooler to run.

So yeah hurts the meta players who know what they are doing but helps the new players ... in my opinion it really isn't an issue for the greatest mech still in the game.

You are close, but you missed, is what many see is the most damaging part of the nerf: The energy duration and the stacking penalties per pod. Longer duration means either you have more exposed face time while waiting for the laser to finish it's burn or you do a fraction of the dmg due to either having take cover, or your target has taken cover before the burn is done. It also means you have to stay on target much longer to do dmg, which is awesome when fighting fast moving lights.

The stacking penalties mean that even the stock fresh out of the box, as PGI sells them to us get hit hard, i.e. the stock prime SCrow has a 15% duration penalty, That gives the ERlg that it comes with has a 3sec burn time, the stock prime TWolf is the same. That is a huge amount of time to be exposed, getting shot and to stay on target.

If you don't want to take those stacked penalties, you can buy other pods certainly, but the pods are heavily energy oriented, you can go SRM/Streak boats, (which the community always loves), or throw some ballistics on, and clan ballistics are extremely inefficient.

So it's not as simple as being more heat efficient, which you are correct, due to cycle time it will be cooler. And yes due to the cool down time DPS will take a hit..but it will ALSO take a hit because of the above reasons, unless you are shooting at someone that is shut down or not moving.

[Unit47]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 11:31 AM, said:

When I got you to present the data from the last RHOD tournament, WHICH YOU PRESENTED. It showed different results.

Out of over 200 games played in the last season of RHOD 8v8 only 5 (in words FIVE) light chassis used were not FS or 2X. Why? Because the rest of the chassis are ******* bad and are likely to stay bad and nonviable in comp play without buffs or nerfs.

If you want to see them used in comp play you create artificial environments like MRBC or MCW.

If you can't see that this proves the superiority of chassis and the nonviability of others in a minmax enviroment you are dumber than a sea squirt.

Edited by Unit47, 21 May 2015 - 12:13 PM.

[Yokaiko]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 11:36 AM, said:

Modules don't mean jack. If we count the modules for the TDR, then we should count modules for the TBR as well, which ends up giving up more range advantage to the TBR actually.

Also, I don't know what you /imagined/ I said. The TDR doesn't SUCK at 350 meters. Just that it starts to be less effective beyond that range for the heat cost. While the TBR with up to 7 ERMLs can hit for decent damage up to 600 meters. (If you want, you can swap the ERMLs for ERSLs, ERSPLs, or ERMPLs. Most of those are better options than the ER-ML, depending on the range you want to use)

Yeah and 7 er-mlas are now eating a huge DPS hit and generate 42 (so realistically like 62 is it? I don't have the tables here) heat BEFORE ghost heat with a 1.65sec burn.

Or are you going to stand there in front of Thud and chain fire?

[IraqiWalker]

Fenris Kell, on 21 May 2015 - 12:06 PM, said:

You are close, but you missed, is what many see is the most damaging part of the nerf: The energy duration and the stacking penalties per pod. Longer duration means either you have more exposed face time while waiting for the laser to finish it's burn or you do a fraction of the dmg due to either having take cover, or your target has taken cover before the burn is done. It also means you have to stay on target much longer to do dmg, which is awesome when fighting fast moving lights.

The stacking penalties mean that even the stock fresh out of the box, as PGI sells them to us get hit hard, i.e. the stock prime SCrow has a 15% duration penalty, That gives the ERlg that it comes with has a 3sec burn time, the stock prime TWolf is the same. That is a huge amount of time to be exposed, getting shot and to stay on target.

If you don't want to take those stacked penalties, you can buy other pods certainly, but the pods are heavily energy oriented, you can go SRM/Streak boats, (which the community always loves), or throw some ballistics on, and clan ballistics are extremely inefficient.

So it's not as simple as being more heat efficient, which you are correct, due to cycle time it will be cooler. And yes due to the cool down time DPS will take a hit..but it will ALSO take a hit because of the above reasons, unless you are shooting at someone that is shut down or not moving.

Just one thing to nit pick here. the ERLL has a burn duration of 1.25 seconds. a 15% penalty on that is almost negligible. since it bumps the time to 1.4375 seconds. Not 3 seconds. 1.25 x 0.15 = 0.1875. 1.25 + 0.1875 = 1.4375 seconds total.

Unit47, on 21 May 2015 - 12:12 PM, said:

Out of over 200 games played in the last season of RHOD 8v8 only 5 (in words FIVE) light chassis used were not FS or 2X. Why? Because the rest of the chassis are ******* bad and are likely to stay bad and nonviable in comp play without buffs or nerfs.

If you want to see them used in comp play you create artificial environments like MRBC or MCW.

If you can't see that this proves the superiority of chassis and the nonviability of others in a minmax enviroment you are dumber than a sea squirt.

You have some serious comprehension problems, you know that? It doesn't matter that only 5 others were used. The whole crux of my argument is that saying only 1 is viable is wrong. Which is something you yourself have already proven more than once.

I'm also not saying all of them are going to be viable.

Out of the two of us, you seem to be the one with intellect problems, here. Seriously. Look at your life, look at your choices.

Yokaiko, on 21 May 2015 - 12:15 PM, said:

Yeah and 7 er-mlas are now eating a huge DPS hit and generate 42 (so realistically like 62 is it? I don't have the tables here) heat BEFORE ghost heat with a 1.65sec burn.

Or are you going to stand there in front of Thud and chain fire?

I believe I already stated that if you prefer, you can pick alternatives that are better for the TBR, depending on the range. The ERMLs provide very long range, beyond the reach of the MPL TDR. Now why would the 42 heat from the ERMLs become 62 before ghost heat? Elaborate please. (For the record, I realize this last question may seem sarcastic, or whatever. I am asking in earnest)

Edited by IraqiWalker, 21 May 2015 - 12:25 PM.

[Yokaiko]

IraqiWalker, on 21 May 2015 - 12:18 PM, said:

Just one thing to nit pick here. the ERLL has a burn duration of 1.25 seconds. a 15% penalty on that is almost negligible. since it bumps the time to 1.4375 seconds. Not 3 seconds. 1.25 x 0.15 = 0.1875. 1.25 + 0.1875 = 1.4375 seconds total.



You have some serious comprehension problems, you know that? It doesn't matter that only 5 others were used. The whole crux of my argument is that saying only 1 is viable is wrong. Which is something you yourself have already proven more than once.

I'm also not saying all of them are going to be viable.

Out of the two of us, you seem to be the one with intellect problems, here. Seriously. Look at your life, look at your choices.



I believe I already stated that if you prefer, you can pick alternatives that are better for the TBR, depending on the range. The ERMLs provide very long range, beyond the reach of the MPL TDR. Now why would the 42 heat from the ERMLs become 62 before ghost heat? Elaborate please. (For the record, I realize this last question may seem sarcastic, or whatever. I am asking in earnest)

After ghost heat, its 42 to start with and I don't have the scale memorized, however you are dual triggering GH on laser 6 and 7.

.....and that is a lot of heat to start with.

[Fenris Kell]

To IraqiWalker, (didn't feel the need to do the whole quote thing). I didn't do the math, but what I did do is start my stop watch from when I fire, to when the beam ends on my stormcrow prime, that has 2ERlg, 3med, and 2 srm 4. From start to finish very close to 3 sec. I didn't time the TW..but since it's the same penalty, I inferred that it's about the same.