49 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

While in no hurry to get there......

I do love Rotary ACs, Uziels, Hellspawns, Chimeras, Uziels, Thanatos and Nova Cats.

Meh.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 July 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

But the HBK doesn't have any duplicitous Heavy 'Mech. A Jager isn't that much bigger than a Blackjack, has the same movement profile, has more armor, can carry more and bigger guns with a STD engine, and still moves at Warhawk speeds.

Sure, we'll be able to make the BJ-O work, but we'll do so in spite of its deficiencies and not because it's a good robot.

Make no mistake, I do want it in the game. I'll play it. But it's still going to be terrible.

Hunchback Please Meet the Shootist. Shootist, the Hunchback.


Armament
1x Autocannon/20
1x ER Large Laser
2x Medium Pulse Lasers
1x Small Laser

Gotta love that low slung CT laser.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 15 July 2015 - 02:24 AM.

[Sjorpha]

The problem with advancing the timeline before balancing the current equipment is that you'll end up with things being obselete, which translates to non-content in a PvP game.

In other words, the current balance problems is exactly why the timeline should not be advanced yet, when the current equipment is balanced so everything has a use you can go ahead and (carefully) add new things.

Edited by Sjorpha, 15 July 2015 - 02:38 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 July 2015 - 02:24 AM, said:

Hunchback Please Meet the Shootist. Shootist, the Hunchback.


Armament
1x Autocannon/20
1x ER Large Laser
2x Medium Pulse Lasers
1x Small Laser

Gotta love that low slung CT laser.

The argument in question is a one-way street, from medium to heavy. If the Shootist were already in the game and the Hunckback weren't, you might have a case, but that's seriously pushing it because neither the Shootist nor the Hunch are locked down with poorly chosen equipment. Since they are both IS 'Mechs, the fact that you can swap engines alone means the Shootist can carry weapons loads a Hunch would salivate at and that the Hunch can move at speeds the Shootist can only dream of.

Even then, Mediums are the optimum weight class for balancing mobility and firepower. And that's where the BJ-O goes wrong: by being stuck to a 200-size engine, it is physically impossible to take advantage of that class dynamic. You are, almost as literally as possible, stuck driving a 50-ton Jager. It can do everything the Jager can, only worse because it can't tank as many hits or move quite as fast. It would be a hard-mode Jager. Entertaining to play, but not anything stellar.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 13 July 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

But the HBK doesn't have any duplicitous Heavy 'Mech. A Jager isn't that much bigger than a Blackjack, has the same movement profile, has more armor, can carry more and bigger guns with a STD engine, and still moves at Warhawk speeds.

Sure, we'll be able to make the BJ-O work, but we'll do so in spite of its deficiencies and not because it's a good robot.

Make no mistake, I do want it in the game. I'll play it. But it's still going to be terrible.

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2015 - 03:19 AM, said:

The argument in question is a one-way street, from medium to heavy. If the Shootist were already in the game and the Hunckback weren't, you might have a case, but that's seriously pushing it because neither the Shootist nor the Hunch are locked down with poorly chosen equipment. Since they are both IS 'Mechs, the fact that you can swap engines alone means the Shootist can carry weapons loads a Hunch would salivate at and that the Hunch can move at speeds the Shootist can only dream of.

Even then, Mediums are the optimum weight class for balancing mobility and firepower. And that's where the BJ-O goes wrong: by being stuck to a 200-size engine, it is physically impossible to take advantage of that class dynamic. You are, almost as literally as possible, stuck driving a 50-ton Jager. It can do everything the Jager can, only worse because it can't tank as many hits or move quite as fast. It would be a hard-mode Jager. Entertaining to play, but not anything stellar.

Either way there are plenty of Mechs that are bigger or smaller that duplicate one another.

Also, A BL-O could not "take advantage of the class dynamic" on TT cause it was an Omni!

My opinion on Optimal balance/firepower Is the Heavy Class, but I am more a fire power than speed player.

[Y E O N N E]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 July 2015 - 03:36 AM, said:

Either way there are plenty of Mechs that are bigger or smaller that duplicate one another.

Also, A BL-O could not "take advantage of the class dynamic" on TT cause it was an Omni!

My opinion on Optimal balance/firepower Is the Heavy Class, but I am more a fire power than speed player.

Your bolded section in the first quote is using the letter of the argument to defeat the spirit of the argument. Please don't go there, that's no fun for anybody.

More to the point, though, duplication doesn't matter so much if they aren't being forced into a particular set of roles shared by another 'Mech with nigh identical geometry and hard-point placement. I could bring a super slow Jager with all the guns or I can make a speedy Jager with a few choice guns. BJ-O? Has to be medium-slow, meaning it's always going to play like a medium-slow Jager. The Omni nature is responsible for this, and I wouldn't want to change the BJ-O (hell, I want it in the game to add to my collection of Blackjacks!), but it's never going to be amazing within its class.

Finally, I would say the ultimate, optimal balance between speed and firepower is achieved on the Clan heavies; but then again the Storm Crow just shows that you can have Heavy firepower for what are almost light speeds. The gulf between Medium and Heavy is not as large as the gulf between any two other classes.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 July 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Your bolded section in the first quote is using the letter of the argument to defeat the spirit of the argument. Please don't go there, that's no fun for anybody.

More to the point, though, duplication doesn't matter so much if they aren't being forced into a particular set of roles shared by another 'Mech with nigh identical geometry and hard-point placement. I could bring a super slow Jager with all the guns or I can make a speedy Jager with a few choice guns. BJ-O? Has to be medium-slow, meaning it's always going to play like a medium-slow Jager. The Omni nature is responsible for this, and I wouldn't want to change the BJ-O (hell, I want it in the game to add to my collection of Blackjacks!), but it's never going to be amazing within its class.

Finally, I would say the ultimate, optimal balance between speed and firepower is achieved on the Clan heavies; but then again the Storm Crow just shows that you can have Heavy firepower for what are almost light speeds. The gulf between Medium and Heavy is not as large as the gulf between any two other classes.

Don't be so sure of that. Faulty Generalizations are a bear. Most people may not enjoy it, But my family has had lots of fun tweaking the nose of what words mean vs what is said... Or was it the other way around?

[Y E O N N E]

Joseph Mallan, on 15 July 2015 - 10:59 AM, said:

Don't be so sure of that. Faulty Generalizations are a bear. Most people may not enjoy it, But my family has had lots of fun tweaking the nose of what words mean vs what is said... Or was it the other way around?

What you did there: I see it!

[Sazabi Steppenwulfe]

Sjorpha, on 15 July 2015 - 02:37 AM, said:

The problem with advancing the timeline before balancing the current equipment is that you'll end up with things being obselete, which translates to non-content in a PvP game.

In other words, the current balance problems is exactly why the timeline should not be advanced yet, when the current equipment is balanced so everything has a use you can go ahead and (carefully) add new things.

Russ mentioned "battle value" in the last town hall. hopefully this will address that problem