309 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

I remember the poll, but don't have a link. Sorry. I'm apparently terrible at using forum search, because I can never find things after the fact. I'm frankly amazed at how quickly other people can find things.

You and me both.

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

It's difficult to make that distinction, but that's actually what I was trying to do with that phrasing. Only the first paragraph was a direct response to you.

I figured as much, but with a lot of generalities being thrown around, and not always being certain who has this or that and who said this or that it is easy to assume the wrong thing.

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Conveniently edited. I also said that I enjoy seeing others with things in the game that I can no longer get. In other words, I enjoy seeing unique things in the game. It gives the game more character for there to be cool and interesting things in it. But it has nothing to do we me or anyone else "feeling special" which was your projection.

I quoted a complete thought. The fact you also like other people feeling unique/special doesn't preclude you from wanting to feel special/unique based on your purchase highlighted by the what you said. At this point though we are just getting into symantics so we will just have to agree to disagree.

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

But that's really not my problem, is it? I bought a product for an agreed upon price with agreed upon conditions. Now they want to retroactively change that sale.

Well I'm pretty sure somewhere it says content subject to change in the TOS, and I would imagine a enterprising lawyer playing loose and fast with that wording could make a reasonable argument for allowing such a change since you still got what you paid for minus the full exclusivity that you originally thought you were getting.

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Why re-open Phoenix? Why not create a Phoenix II?

Because it is convenient, and because some people have asked for it? Should they do a Phoenix II instead? Perhaps, but what if they said all original owners also receive one of each of the new versions of the Phoenix mechs(example Battlemaster 3M) would that be ok? Just curious.

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Because lazy? Because desperate? Because compulsive liars?

Now who is projecting?

Roadkill, on 19 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Depends on what you mean by "anything." I will absolutely do "something" if they open up the Phoenix packages for sale again. Never means never.

*shrug* Anything being something that actually matters and isn't just symbolic.

[Norlin]

People keep relating this to the founders mechs. I say re-release the founders mechs as well, just charge a premium for getting them now way after the fact. More money into the game I play only helps and it doesn't hurt me that other people get to play with the founder mechs I have. In fact, it probably helps me because it means I'll be facing off against more mechs that kinda suck

[Hillslam]

Voting No.

Absolutely positively NOT about exclusivity.

Absolutely positively IS about when you make a contract you keep your g**d**m mutherf**king word.

It MATTERS.

(I am sad it doesn't matter to so many posters.)

[Linkin]

I was on the fence for a bit, but I have read some more threads, and was reminded of some things I had forgotten. I will be voting no.

This isn't a, "I am special and need my exclusive items, no pack for you!", thing, it is the principle behind the offer which I and others bought into.

PGI's wording when they sold us the phoenix pack, was never to be sold again. That is pretty clear. Screenshots floating around somewhere on the forums, or:

http://mwomercs.com/...t-phoenix-faqs/

Q: How are the Phoenix Battlemechs cosmetically and functionally different from the Mechs already in-game?
[color=#00FFFF]A: The Phoenix Variants of each Project Phoenix Battlemech comes packed with the following cosmetic and functional perks:[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Unique and Exclusive Custom Designed Exterior[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]30% C-Bill boost[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]10% Loyalty Point Boost[/color]
[color=#00FFFF]Important! These Phoenix Variants will NEVER again be available to purchase or to unlock once the sale offer has ended[/color]

[AoFMarauder]

Will vote Yes.

(I won't cry if someone can buy what I bought. Technically they're not getting exactly what I got because since then there have been quirks added, other Mechs added outside the pack, and because they've had to wait all this time for the opportunity to purchase it. Its actual value may have shifted radically. And what detriment does it really do me if there can be more Phoenix variants out there? I wasn't somehow counting on the fact that the Phoenix pack wouldn't be offered forever, and that didn't give me any advantage either. True, it wasn't their initial intention, but that was rather short-sighted, was it not?)

[Tiamat of the Sea]

I'm gonna vote no, but not for any reasons I've seen anyone else stating.

Basically two things:

• The (P) variants, which are most of the reason for this package, are largely poor variants. The 2H Shadow Hawk and 1V Locust are generally panned and with fairly good reasons to boot. The Thud's still a Thud, but the 1G Battlemaster isn't really even seen these days, again with decent reason.
  
• All of these 'mechs are available for C-bills and MC currently. Anyone can put in a bit of time and get whatever of this stuff they want. Phoenix Package doesn't need to be for sale again for this.

So... not so much 'I don't want anyone else to have it', more 'I don't see a reason to offer it'.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 19 May 2015 - 01:03 PM.

[Wildstreak]

stjobe, on 19 May 2015 - 10:35 AM, said:

The "now-it's-exclusive-now-it's-not" Flame "Hotrod" pattern is already available to everyone with MC. They've already gone back on their word there, see my post here for how they changed the wording once the stretch goal was met.

As for the 'mechs, let me quote the Phoenix FAQ for the third time:


The relevant part is the last line:

"Important! These Phoenix Variants will NEVER again be available to purchase or to unlock once the sale offer has ended."

That's PGI's own words, in the official FAQ on the package. How they can ask to sell them again is beyond me, especially as they've already asked once before and we said no then as well.

Using large letters multiple times doesn't make a point, it makes something else.
Look, I don't hate you even when we disagree, I do believe they could be offered again just in a different way as this man said.

Malleus011, on 19 May 2015 - 11:11 AM, said:

As a number of other posters have mentioned with variations - I'd be happy to reopen Phoenix if any gesture was made towards making the original content unique - changing the skins, changing the C-Bill bonus variant, shuffling the variants, etc.

Make Phoenix II.

Short form.
1 - Don't offer the LP bonus medallions, they should be exclusive.
2 - Don't give P variants with LP bonus, they should be exclusvie. There are 3 versions of those Clan Wave I Prime variants, G, I and regular. Let P be exclusive, regular is by C-Bill purchase and make a new letter version with CB bonus like other packs get.
3 - No free Hot Rod pattern.
4 - No other early adopter rewards.
5 - Give new Faction camos and items (Warhorns, Standing, Hanging) and possibly give them to original purchasers.
6 - Maybe change the Shadow Hawk variants so it does not clash with the Mastery pack. Locust too if they make a Champion version, consider others if Mastery bundles get made though they shouldn't if they offer the packs again.

Really, original PP owners do not have as much to complain about compared to Founders yet they act like it. Sure, Founders got Open Beta access but what do they have now compared to later packs offered for those prices?

Original PP owners are acting like the Founders did when PP was first done, I remember those comments very clearly.

[stjobe]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 01:06 PM, said:

I do believe they could be offered again just in a different way as this man said.

Yeah, I said so several times in this thread too.

But - and this one's important, so pay attention - the poll isn't about that. The poll is about whether to re-release the original Phoenix pack. "Re-open" is the word they used on the poll.

Which very much sounds like it includes the (P) variants, Flame camo, LP medallions, premium time, the works. Including the "NEVER to be available to purchase or to unlock once the sale offer has ended" (P) variants.

And that's not cricket.

[Wildstreak]

Norlin, on 19 May 2015 - 11:35 AM, said:

People keep relating this to the founders mechs. I say re-release the founders mechs as well, just charge a premium for getting them now way after the fact.

No.
I am not a Founder or Phoenix purchaser. I missed this game until it went Open Beta, doesn't mean I want Founders Mechs. Do you know what they got?
Top tier, they got 4 Mechs. One Jenner, one Hunchback, one Catapult, one Atlas with unique looks. Also Closed Beta access, nothing else TMK, a few things came later but not much compared to even Phoenix.

Now Founders I think have a CB boost. There was talk of a Founders skin, don't know if it got made. You want those 4 Mechs unique with CB and skin? Oxide, Grid Iron, Jester, Boar's Head, there you are and those have totally new hardpoints. There really is no point to reoffering the same 4 Founders Mechs.

Edited by Wildstreak, 19 May 2015 - 02:47 PM.

[stjobe]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

Do you know what they got?
Top tier, they got 4 Mechs. One Jenner, one Hunchback, one Catapult, one Atlas with unique looks. Also Closed Beta access, nothing else TMK

We also got three months of premium time and 20,000 MC.

Edit: And the warm fuzzy feeling we helped bring the game into being - which Russ rather brusquely crushed later, when he said that they'd have made the game anyway, the $5 million they got from us was just gravy.

Edited by stjobe, 19 May 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Roadkill]

WarHippy, on 19 May 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

Well I'm pretty sure somewhere it says content subject to change in the TOS, and I would imagine a enterprising lawyer playing loose and fast with that wording could make a reasonable argument for allowing such a change since you still got what you paid for minus the full exclusivity that you originally thought you were getting.

Yeah, that's a pretty big minus. In my eyes that's no different than going back and saying "oops, we didn't mean to release the Thunderbolt, so we're just going to delete them from everyone's accounts. Sorry! But you can't sue, because we did give them to you as promised!"

Quote

Because it is convenient, and because some people have asked for it? Should they do a Phoenix II instead? Perhaps, but what if they said all original owners also receive one of each of the new versions of the Phoenix mechs(example Battlemaster 3M) would that be ok? Just curious.

No, not for me. And I didn't buy any of those Mechs, so they'd actually be new to me if given.

It's not a "GIB ME MOAR STUFFZ" thing for me. It's a principle. I want them to keep their word for once. Show some integrity. Ditching IGP was supposed to reveal a whole new PGI, but it seems like they're reverting back to the bad old days to me.

Quote

Now who is projecting?

I'm actually wondering. I see no reason to even want to re-release the Phoenix packs, because all of those Mechs are already available for MC and c-bills. I think some of them have even been offered in Mastery packs, haven't they?

The only reason to re-open the packs is to make the unique patterns/geometry/etc available, which just happens to be the only part of the pack that holds any lasting value, and it only holds that value due to "never."

Quote

*shrug* Anything being something that actually matters and isn't just symbolic.

We'll see. The lackluster Resistance II Mechs already has me waffling about getting a refund on my Wave III pre-order.

[Norlin]

Wildstreak, on 19 May 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

No.
I am not a Founder or Phoenix purchaser. I missed this game until it went Open Beta, doesn't mean I want Founders Mechs. Do you know what they got?

Considering I have all four of the mechs I'm pretty sure I know what they got In any case, the mechs are available for MC and c-bills, so if someone wants to donate more than I did to the game to get what I got, I'm all for it! What I'm saying is, go ahead, make them available, just charge more than they originally did, thus giving me a price break for having gone in early on buying them.

[Wildstreak]

Poll is not closed but if it stays the same with a No majority, I have created a different, detailed way of offering Phoenix Mechs attempting to respect original buyers and opened the topic here.

Edited by Wildstreak, 19 May 2015 - 04:45 PM.

[oldradagast]

Surreal...

So, what PGI is basically asking is: "Is it cool if we sell to different people a bunch of stuff we've sold before to make more money, thus keeping the servers on."

And about half the people are saying, "NO!" like spoiled children.

When you go to a restaurant, do you get offended if they sell somebody else the same dinner order you have? Do you yell and scream that you should be the only one with a medium rare steak in the place? When you see the same model and color car as yours on the road, do you get angry and hate that person for having a copy of "your car" - do you feel rage at the dealership for selling the "same car" to somebody else?

As for it being a "one time offer" - did you actually belief that? When a store advertises that this is "the best sale ever!" do you go back a year later and chew them out for having a similar sale? When a store says they offer "the best deals," do you then compare all other deals and then report them to the BBB for "false advertising?"

Seriously, people - get real! They are nothing but pixels on a screen - mechs with a few rollbars added that you have to look hard to see. There's nothing truly exclusive about them, and I doubt anybody has cared in-game for well over a year about "how cool" that Phoenix purchaser is.

Let them sell them. May as well keep the servers on a few months longer or delay Clan Wave 4 and the inevitable nerfs of older mechs that will come with it.

Edited by oldradagast, 19 May 2015 - 04:59 PM.

[Malleus011]

Remember, when insulting PP owners who vote no, be sure to stamp your foot and threaten to hold your breath until we change our minds.

[N0MAD]

oldradagast, on 19 May 2015 - 04:58 PM, said:

Surreal...

So, what PGI is basically asking is: "Is it cool if we sell to different people a bunch of stuff we've sold before to make more money, thus keeping the servers on."

And about half the people are saying, "NO!" like spoiled children.

When you go to a restaurant, do you get offended if they sell somebody else the same dinner order you have? Do you yell and scream that you should be the only one with a medium rare steak in the place? When you see the same model and color car as yours on the road, do you get angry and hate that person for having a copy of "your car" - do you feel rage at the dealership for selling the "same car" to somebody else?

As for it being a "one time offer" - did you actually belief that? When a store advertises that this is "the best sale ever!" do you go back a year later and chew them out for having a similar sale? When a store says they offer "the best deals," do you then compare all other deals and then report them to the BBB for "false advertising?"

Seriously, people - get real! They are nothing but pixels on a screen - mechs with a few rollbars added that you have to look hard to see. There's nothing truly exclusive about them, and I doubt anybody has cared in-game for well over a year about "how cool" that Phoenix purchaser is.

Let them sell them. May as well keep the servers on a few months longer or delay Clan Wave 4 and the inevitable nerfs of older mechs that will come with it.

So brother are you married or have a significant other half?
Since by your post you seem to have no regard for integrity or loyalty, is it ok for them (your other half) to now go sleep with whoever? because you know the marriage Cert or the understanding you have was only ink or words.
Please go tell him/her, that you are going to sleep around because you know that verbal/written agreement was only ink/words, see how that goes for you..

[Bobzilla]

One of the biggest problems with this game is consumer faith, or lack of.

PGI blamed IGP for this and attempted to re-brand their image.

It would just reinforce the idea that PGI isn't putting customers first, and shouldn't be trusted (especially with your money). Even under the guise of popular support, which is more 'can we make enough money to make it worth it'.

For the longevity of the game, you probably don't want to be reviewed as the company who (still) does unethical things and doesn't deliver what you pay for.

[Neutron IX]

I appreciate all the responses everyone!

Here's to hoping we can keep it respectful, and recognize other opinions that differ from ours, as just that, differing opinions. No more, no less, and definitely not anything worth getting too up in arms over eh?

That all being said, some thoughts around some of what I'm seeing here.

I never viewed the Phoenix pack as being a "promise" or "contract" with me personally. The fact that any of the packs were exclusive never quite sat right with me, and I do think it's worth noting, that since PGI went independent of IGP, that no new content packs have been so. Instead, they have created "early bird rewards" and the like, to reward the people who are there supporting at the beginning of the content push.

This is a system I personally support, and think works, and I have no problem with them retroactively applying that model to older packs myself. I stand to lose nothing of personal value, and in fact, in my opinion, stand to actually gain, if they do this. More money invested into the game, more players getting more mechs, including personal friends, and family members, who would be interested, and enjoy such content, but weren't around to get them in the beginning, etc. And if they go so far as to infuse new content to original owners of Phoenix packs by way of replicating retroactively the early bird specials, I would benefit even more.

They are asking us our opinion on the matter, which I appreciate. People have mentioned there being another poll, but I never saw it, nor did I get an opportunity to vote in it, so why should there not be another poll, with broader reach, to draw in more of the Phoenix players?

Also, people are known to change their minds from time to time, so it stands to reason that someone who voted "NO" last time, might now vote "YES", or vice versa.

While I understand where many of you are coming from on the "NO" side, I, respectfully, don't see it the same as you do, and that is okay.

For those on the "YES" side with me, let's remember to show the same respect for the "NO" voters as we hope to receive from them.

They have their own opinions...it's not their fault that they're so wrong.

Totally joking! But, seriously, it's okay to disagree eh?

Cheers!

-Rip

[Nightshade24]

Reptilizer, on 19 May 2015 - 02:32 AM, said:

You do not save money by spending it.
Do not fall for the semantics **** of the marketing departments

you bought 650 dollars worth of content for 500 dollars, that's 150 dollars that would have been spent otherwise on the same goods if not for the deal.

Tell me in what universe 650 = 500. last time I checked only 650 = 650 and 500 = 500.

[Alan Davion]

N0MAD, on 19 May 2015 - 06:01 PM, said:

So brother are you married or have a significant other half?
Since by your post you seem to have no regard for integrity or loyalty, is it ok for them (your other half) to now go sleep with whoever? because you know the marriage Cert or the understanding you have was only ink or words.
Please go tell him/her, that you are going to sleep around because you know that verbal/written agreement was only ink/words, see how that goes for you..

Are you kidding me?

Are you freaking kidding me?

You're comparing, fictional, completely non-existent pixels on your tv or whatever, to something as real and tangible as a marriage license?

I've seen some whoppers of posts on this Phoenix issue, but you sir take the bleeding cake.

It's a game, and a business.OldRadagast is right, some of you original Phoenix owners are, for lack of a better phrase, cutting off your noses to spite your face.

PGI needs to sell mechs to pay the people who make all these new mechs we're getting, and to keep the game running in general.

This whole 'exclusivity' thing is ridiculous, and from what I understand, was concocted NOT by PGI, but IGP. Back when all the mech packs were supposed to be one-time deals. But guess what, do you really, seriously thing that IGP would have kept them exclusive?

Look at Star Trek Online for a bit, that game had a ****-ton of 'exclusive' content and was almost to the point of being shut-down before PWE took control. And I know, I was there since STOs closed Beta, and followed it until the point where everything went to **** and I left. Now look what it's become, another cookie-cutter grind-fest MMO where people throw hundreds of dollars into the lottery system known as "Lock Boxes". That's the only reason that game is still up and running.

If something sells, and sells good, then it will be sold again at some point, it's common business sense.

Now, clan wave 1 has been on sale for how long now? A year? Almost two years? Guess what, I bet they are still selling those mechs, and again, that goes back to needing to pay their staff, and keep the servers running.

Tell me something. If PGI stopped selling mechs after Resistance 2, how long do you think it would be before the game was shut down and we had to wait years and years to have another BT/MW game? I'd say less than 6 months unless PGI managed to partner up with another company.

Now, granted that's all pretty extreme rhetoric, but the possibility still exists. PGI needs to sell mechs to keep the lights on. More mechs to sell means we all get to keep playing.

Bring back the Phoenix Project.