309 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

*Sigh*

Despite the fact that this thread is a dead letter, it's still disheartening to see people going back and forth over it.

The Phoenix initiative is dead. We killed it. We're not going to see the original Phoenix re-opened for sale, nor are we going to see any new Phoenix renditions with new chassis in the future. It's over, it's done with, no more. We can't change it anymore. We had our chance, we threw it away. it's gone.

Just...let it go. There's no point stewing over bad decisions now.

[TKSax]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

TKSax, do a general forum search for "Phoenix".

You'll find threads going back at least a couple years starting shortly after the end of the original sale. Whether it's for the original sale again, or for a "Wave 2" with the Macross mechs.

Trust me, they're there. People want the mechs, the geometry, the camo, the colors.

Wave 2 of the phoenix pack has no bearing on this, they can release that tomorrow if they want. I check these forums several times daily, besides the threads for for the Polls, no other phoenix pack request have stayed on the first few pages more that a few hours so as I no I do not see a clamor for 4 mechs and 3
colors. Request's made by the same small group of people over and over again does not mean it is popular.

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

It seems to me that, judging by what I've read recently, most of the 'bad history' came about as a product of IGP pulling PGI's strings, PGI's actions themselves were secondary. So, the way I see it, PGI should not have to hold itself to IGP's bad word choice during the previous sale.

Oh man I almost spit out my drink over this. Trust me IGP is not all to blame as much as some people would like to believe. PGI had plenty of missteps they created on their own, the number one was absolutely 0 communication at the time. The other issue the obviously managing the relationship between a publisher and developer.

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

The Phoenix initiative is dead. We killed it. We're not going to see the original Phoenix re-opened for sale, nor are we going to see any new Phoenix renditions with new chassis in the future. It's over, it's done with, no more. We can't change it anymore. We had our chance, we threw it away. it's gone.

LOL please yes its all doom and gloom no phoenix packs, please stop being ridiculous, all this vote was about was re-releasing the original Phoenix Pack, and it has not bearing on any the other packs PGI would like to offer.

Edited by TKSax, 27 May 2015 - 11:06 AM.

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

A bad history that, oh, maybe they are trying to repair?

Did anyone ever take that into consideration?

I'm not sure how you can take going back on their word again as trying to repair anything...

"Repair" in this case would have been to simply tell all of the people who allegedly keep asking about the Phoenix packs and the (P) Mechs specifically that they were a one time offer and won't be resold.

It may have been a poor decision by IGP at the time (which is a different question), but it is what it is. The best course of action for PGI is to enforce it so that they're not seen as once again going back on their word.

[stjobe]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 11:00 AM, said:

The Phoenix initiative is dead. We killed it. We're not going to see the original Phoenix re-opened for sale, nor are we going to see any new Phoenix renditions with new chassis in the future. It's over, it's done with, no more. We can't change it anymore. We had our chance, we threw it away. it's gone.

Not at all.

The only thing that's been voted on is the re-opening of the original Phoenix pack.

PGI are free to do a Phoenix II pack if they so care to (and I think they should, seeing that there seems to be at least a bit of interest for it).

The only thing that pack cannot contain is the (P) 'mechs. Anything else is perfectly fine.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 10:41 AM, said:

So legally If I read this right, PGI can publicly say We are going to sell (P) again, cause they told us publicly they were going to sell it in the first place.

I'm no lawyer, but I think you're reading that backwards.

They have something for sale and have said it will be offered indefinitely. They may go back on that and revoke the sale by simply stating that the offer is no longer available.

This offer is already no longer available, so to my reading that clause doesn't apply.

[Nightmare1]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 08:52 AM, said:

So instead of a Leach you chose the bane of manufacturing! LOL I am not a fan of Engineers being that I have to try to make what they design!

ROFL, that depends on the engineer!

I get what you mean though; I've worked at two different plants to date where I've seen the working relation between engineers and hourly. That being said, I did have an hourly guy tell me today that he'd vouch for me if I try to hire on at the plant where I currently intern. Not sure whether that means I'm making a good or bad engineer, lol.

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:48 AM, said:

So, the way I see it, PGI should not have to hold itself to IGP's bad word choice during the previous sale.

It wasn't just "bad word choice," Alan. It was a major feature of the release. A big part of their sales drive was based on "buy it now - you'll never have another chance!" So this wasn't just some accidental typo in a brochure somewhere. It was a deliberate, calculated decision that they wielded to generate more sales.

[Alan Davion]

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Not at all.

The only thing that's been voted on is the re-opening of the original Phoenix pack.

PGI are free to do a Phoenix II pack if they so care to (and I think they should, seeing that there seems to be at least a bit of interest for it).

The only thing that pack cannot contain is the (P) 'mechs. Anything else is perfectly fine.

So, how would Phoenix 2 be differentiated from Resistance 2?

Are the Wolfhound and others going to have a (R2) tag? Or simply an ® tag like the Panther and the first wave, which I believe is more likely.

The same can be said for Clan Wave 2. You don't see an (I2) tag there, do you?

So, in selling a Phoenix 2, those mechs would have to be branded with the same general (P) tag as the first wave.

Wouldn't this little fact in all likelihood cause all this bruhaha all over again?

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2015 - 11:12 AM, said:

I'm no lawyer, but I think you're reading that backwards.

They have something for sale and have said it will be offered indefinitely. They may go back on that and revoke the sale by simply stating that the offer is no longer available.

This offer is already no longer available, so to my reading that clause doesn't apply.

I don't see how backwards or forwards it has different meaning.Either way they are changing their mind.

[TKSax]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

So, how would Phoenix 2 be differentiated from Resistance 2?

Are the Wolfhound and others going to have a (R2) tag? Or simply an ® tag like the Panther and the first wave, which I believe is more likely.

The same can be said for Clan Wave 2. You don't see an (I2) tag there, do you?

So, in selling a Phoenix 2, those mechs would have to be branded with the same general (P) tag as the first wave.

Wouldn't this little fact in all likelihood cause all this bruhaha all over again?

No becuase its not a Shadow Hawk 2H2(P), and BLR-1G(P) and so on. Those mechs with that special geometry should not be sold again.

[1453 R]

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Not at all.

The only thing that's been voted on is the re-opening of the original Phoenix pack.

PGI are free to do a Phoenix II pack if they so care to (and I think they should, seeing that there seems to be at least a bit of interest for it).

The only thing that pack cannot contain is the (P) 'mechs. Anything else is perfectly fine.

*Sigh*

I went over this a hundred times during the actual vote week. What's one more, I suppose.

All right. A Phoenix II pack, or Phoenix Redux pack, or any pack with the word 'Phoenix' anywhere in its branding, would include new [P] 'Mechs. A Marauder-[P], or Phoenix Hawk -[P], or Ost(mech)-[P]. That's how packs work - Invasion packs have (I) variants, Resistance packs have [R] variants, Phoenix packs have [P] variants.

A narrow but significant majority of existing Phoenix holders have stated that any sale of any [P] variant 'Mechs is grounds for breach-of-contract lawsuits, on top of an absolutely hellacious amount of "WORSE THAN [GODWIN]!!!" savagery. I'm not a lawyer of any sort, but don't they call massed lawsuits like this class-actions? And would class-action lawsuits not be a death stroke to just about any business that suffers one?

They don't dare offer any new Phoenix packages. You all would rise up and destroy their company with incandescent nerdrage if they tried. The offer of any [P] 'Mech, whether or not it was one of the original six [P] 'Mechs, has been most emphatically squashed by a player base which has decided that the original Phoenix package is somehow, beyond all sense or comprehension, equivalent to the way-back-when Founder's packages.

Y'all dun shot yourselves over this one. Too late to change it now, though. You all figured it was more important for Piranha to keep their word concerning Phoenix exclusivity, and so they will - the entire Phoenix program will consist of six 'Mechs nobody can buy anymore from now until the end of time.

Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. No, really. I don't need to buy more 'Mechs anyways, and I'm mostly a Clan player as it is. We didn't really need Marauders in here, the Cataphract does its job just fine if you rig it up right.

[stjobe]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

So, how would Phoenix 2 be differentiated from Resistance 2?

Are the Wolfhound and others going to have a (R2) tag? Or simply an ® tag like the Panther and the first wave, which I believe is more likely.

The same can be said for Clan Wave 2. You don't see an (I2) tag there, do you?

So, in selling a Phoenix 2, those mechs would have to be branded with the same general (P) tag as the first wave.

Wouldn't this little fact in all likelihood cause all this bruhaha all over again?

Please, realize it's not about the (P) tag. They can make however many new (P) variants they please, what they can't do is re-release the current (P) variants.

If they want to slap a new custom geometry on the LCT-3M and call it LCT-3M(P), that's perfectly fine. Hell, it's fine to slap new custom geometry on the LCT-1V and call it LCT-1V(P2).

They just cannot use the custom geometry the current (P) 'mechs have on any new 'mechs, and they cannot re-open the sales of those variants.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 11:19 AM, said:

I don't see how backwards or forwards it has different meaning.Either way they are changing their mind.

But the clause you quoted allows them to an offer off the market. This one already is off the market, so the clause doesn't seem to apply to me.

/shrug

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 11:17 AM, said:

So, in selling a Phoenix 2, those mechs would have to be branded with the same general (P) tag as the first wave.

Wouldn't this little fact in all likelihood cause all this bruhaha all over again?

Come on, Alan, you can't be this dense.

It's not about the tag. It's about the (P) variants with their special geometry, special camo, and +10% loyalty bonus in CW. Don't sell those 4 specific variants (6 if you count Sabre... I can't remember if that pack was also a 1-time deal because I didn't buy it) and it's all cool.

The way you keep trying to make this bigger than it is, it seems like you don't want them to release more Phoenix Mechs but want to be able to blame others for it.

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 11:25 AM, said:

A narrow but significant majority of existing Phoenix holders have stated that any sale of any [P] variant 'Mechs is grounds for breach-of-contract lawsuits

Baloney. That's not at all what happened. It's not what we voted on, and I don't recall having seen ANY posts saying that in any of the threads.

Straw man.

[TKSax]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2015 - 11:29 AM, said:

The way you keep trying to make this bigger than it is, it seems like you don't want them to release more Phoenix Mechs but want to be able to blame others for it.

Yep him and 1453R, sounds like political fear mongering to me.

[WonderSparks]

I never got the memo. Am I to assume all of this means the sale is off?
Not that it matters to me; I already own all of the Phoenix 'Mechs.

Regardless of the answer to my first question, though, it seems I was right. No matter what the poll result was, SOMETHING was going to go wrong, and SOMEONE was going to get mad. _{Apparently that is how the world works these days; I know "you cannot please everyone all of the time", but man.}

[1453 R]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2015 - 11:32 AM, said:

...
Baloney. That's not at all what happened. It's not what we voted on, and I don't recall having seen ANY posts saying that in any of the threads.

Just pointing out that you and a few others have spent the last two pages arguing with Mallan about how Piranha has an enforceable legal obligation to never offer Phoenix 'Mechs for sale again.

I'm not really sure how else that can be taken, save as a warning of potential legal action should any [P] 'Mech ever show up for sale again? There's a very good reason I avoid the word 'legal' any time I can - the moment it comes up, anyone with any sort of stake in the thing being argued over immediately goes into Survival Mode and nothing can be accomplished from that point on.

[TKSax]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Just pointing out that you and a few others have spent the last two pages arguing with Mallan about how Piranha has an enforceable legal obligation to never offer Phoenix 'Mechs for sale again.

I'm not really sure how else that can be taken, save as a warning of potential legal action should any [P] 'Mech ever show up for sale again? There's a very good reason I avoid the word 'legal' any time I can - the moment it comes up, anyone with any sort of stake in the thing being argued over immediately goes into Survival Mode and nothing can be accomplished from that point on.

You really do not understand the word Context.

As in the Context of the poll was about the orginal Phoenix Pack, it is not about anything else.

[Lyoto Machida]

Lol...this is STILL going on? You Yes guys need to let it go.

P.S. You can buy the mechs now...for c-bills even. Please cease and desist with the whining.

[Roadkill]

1453 R, on 27 May 2015 - 11:39 AM, said:

Just pointing out that you and a few others have spent the last two pages arguing with Mallan about how Piranha has an enforceable legal obligation to never offer Phoenix 'Mechs for sale again.

No, we haven't. You aren't paying attention.

Quote

I'm not really sure how else that can be taken, save as a warning of potential legal action should any [P] 'Mech ever show up for sale again? There's a very good reason I avoid the word 'legal' any time I can - the moment it comes up, anyone with any sort of stake in the thing being argued over immediately goes into Survival Mode and nothing can be accomplished from that point on.

I'm not sure how to explain it to you any more clearly than has already been done.

What you said:

Quote

A narrow but significant majority of existing Phoenix holders have stated that any sale of any [P] variant 'Mechs is grounds for breach-of-contract lawsuits

Emphasis mine.

What we're actually saying: the very specific (P) variants that were included in the original Phoenix packs may not be sold again. New (P) Mechs based on different variants are fine. New (P2) versions of the same original (P) variants are fine.

I have to assume that you and Alan are deliberately misreading what's being said so that you can continue arguing, because we've been completely clear about it from the beginning.