309 replies to this topic

[LastKhan]

Marauder.. keep dreaming. Harmony gold laughs at us for our wishful thinking. Unless the unseen gets redone from the ground up they wont ever get introduced.

[TKSax]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

Yeah, you see, the problem is, I'm willing to bet a lot of people, especially new people in the game, wanted the chance at the old camo/colors.

Prove to me there are a bunch of people who want to buy the phoenix pack, they only time I ever saw any real forum/twitter clamor for it was when the Loyalty awards (Free King Crab) were announced, and none at all since then, in fact did they not release the resistance pack so that IS people could use to that to get the Free King Crab?

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 09:46 AM, said:

People are always bitching about PGI changing this or that, and now you want them to change something that doesn't need to be changed?

Because the way PGI worded their sales agreement for the Phoenix pack, they have to. If there is such a need for another mech pack at the same price range (to go with the other 2 that are for sale already..) They should just throw another togther with what mechs that are already in Game. Beside most of the stuff people ***** at PGI have nothing to do with the art department which is where this would fall.

[TKSax]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

When the offeror, either verbally or by conduct, clearly demonstrates that the offer is no longer open, the offer is considered revoked when learned by the offeree. Where an offer is made to the general public, it can be revoked by furnishing public notice of its termination in the same way in which the offer was publicized.

You left out the part above it... you that talked about death and destruction of subject matter. Nice cherry pick though that does not prove your point.

I have been involved in post sales contract disputes. My tiny little company I was with at the time Sued Cisco and Won, well they settled out of court because they were going to lose anyway over them changing the terms of agreement post sale.

You still not answer other question, you seem to want to keep your word with PGI, why is out of the realm of imagination to ask PGI to keep their word to their consumers, because in the end this what it boils down to.

Especially when as I have said some many times besides righter after the Loyalty mech conditions were their any clamor for the phoenix pack to be re-released.

Edited by TKSax, 27 May 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Heffay]

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

*snip*

Just as an aside, the quote in your sig is now true. You can access everything in the game without playing against people who use 3PV, through Community Warfare. That's 1PV only. You should update your sig.

[Joseph Mallan]

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:02 AM, said:

You left out the part above it... you that talked about death and destruction of subject matter. Nice cherry pick though that does not prove your point.

I have been involved in post sales contract disputes. My tiny little company I was with at the time Sued Cisco and Won, well they settled out of court because they were going to lose anyway over them changing the terms of agreement post sale.

You still not answer other question, you seem to want to keep your word with PGI, why is out of the realm of imagination to ask PGI to keep their word to their consumers, because in the end this what it boils down to.

Especially when as I have said some many times besides righter after the Loyalty mech conditions were their any clamor for the phoenix pack to be re-released.

I left it out cause nobody died but IGP did go belly up. I linked the whole thing so I gave you the option to read it for yourself.


Because I gave them the right to change content in their game without my permission. That content includes items I buy in a sale. The sale which is providing content for their product.

I also don't believe in the use of Never. Statistically perfection is only 99.997% so "Never" cannot ever happen.

As for your victory vs Cisco.... It was likely a bean counter decision. Cheaper to pay you off than fight it in court. Happens a lot.

Quote

Especially when as I have said some many times besides righter after the Loyalty mech conditions were their any clamor for the phoenix pack to be re-released.

Does it matter if there was "clamor"?

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 27 May 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[TKSax]

Heffay, on 27 May 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

Just as an aside, the quote in your sig is now true. You can access everything in the game without playing against people who use 3PV, through Community Warfare. That's 1PV only. You should update your sig.

Nope not going to, it is a significant quote and still is true even if my views on PGI have changed since then. I still can be forced (which is relative since no one is forced to play the game) to play against people who can use 3pv.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 10:17 AM, said:

I left it out cause nobody died but IGP did go belly up. I linked the whole thing so I gave you the option to read it for yourself.

Because I gave them the right to change content in their game without my permission. That content includes items I buy in a sale. The sale which is providing content for their product.

IGP did go belly, up but PGI assumed those agreement when the bought out PGI, or they would not have to ask to sell the Phoenix Pack again.

Thats great for you, but you should be be using it as Hammer on everyone else because it is not how most things work in the real world. Your just coming of as Troll like those who you rally against who are criticizing PGI.

Generally I agree with what you say about never, which is why PGI should have "never" been using that word at the time and was a cause of a lot of their issues in the past.

Edited by TKSax, 27 May 2015 - 10:26 AM.

[Alan Davion]

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 09:57 AM, said:

Prove to me there are a bunch of people who want to buy the phoenix pack, they only time I ever saw any real forum/twitter clamor for it was when the Loyalty awards (Free King Crab) were announced, and none at all since then, in fact did they not release the resistance pack so that IS people could use to that to get the Free King Crab?

Because the way PGI worded their sales agreement for the Phoenix pack, they have to. If there is such a need for another mech pack at the same price range (to go with the other 2 that are for sale already..) They should just throw another togther with what mechs that are already in Game. Beside most of the stuff people ***** at PGI have nothing to do with the art department which is where this would fall.

As to your first point, there's about a half dozen threads about the Phoenix thing from the past week, I suggest looking there.

As to the second, that's an internal PGI thing, so I have no idea whether they released Resistance solely for the purpose of the King Crab or not.

Thirdly, the phrase "Never say never, and always refrain from saying always" comes to mind. Thus IGP, who was in charge of advertising at the time, made a grievous mistake. One which PGI, having since broken from IGP, has tried to fix, in the form of the unlimited sales of Clans and Resistance, and whatever other packs they make up as time goes on.

So again, my point stands. The fact that people are always trying to get PGI to change or fix something, and then turning around and /not/ letting them change or fix something, speaks volumes.

Edited by Alan Davion, 27 May 2015 - 10:25 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:21 AM, said:

Nope not going to, it is a significant quote and still is true even if my views on PGI have changed since then. I still can be forced (which is relative since no one is forced to play the game) to play against people who can use 3pv.



Thats great for you, but you should be be using it as Hammer on everyone else because it is not how most things work in the real world.

Generally I agree with what you say about never, which is why PGI should have "never" been using that word at the time and was a cause of a lot of their issues in the past.

I'll use whichever hammer I choose. I am being told what I should think by you, maybe you need a bigger hammer! It'll likely not help but you could try!

That they shouldn't have is not in question. That anyone believed them when they said it is what has me shaking my head.

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 08:05 AM, said:

You know, I'm surprised someone hasn't tried saying that if the Phoenix mechs were 'never to be sold again' that they therefore shouldn't be sold in the game itself.

They aren't.

We're only talking about the (P) variants. That's all anyone has ever been talking about except for those of you who keep trying to make it sound like more than it is.

[stjobe]

There's two packs that cannot be bought any more, founder and phoenix.

All the 'mechs in those packs can be bought for both CB and MC though, it's actually just the (F) and (P) variants with their special geometry, special camo, and respective bonuses that can't be bought.

Meanwhile, you CAN still buy:
Clan Wave I
Clan Wave II
Clan Wave III
Resistance I
Resistance II
UrbanMech
as well as every other previously released 'mech.

We're talking about eight instances of special geometry, special camo, and bonuses; people seem generally cool with four of them being unavailable (founders). Why is it so anathema that the other four they said "never again will be available" actually isn't available?

I just don't understand why it's so very important that the Phoenix pack becomes available again. All the 'mechs except the four (P) variants are already available.

Edited by stjobe, 27 May 2015 - 10:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

blood4blood, on 27 May 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

I'm going to give you a real lawyer's perspective for just a second: You'd be dealing with a case of questionable merit and no monetary value that of necessity gives rise to a ton of practical issues due to the international nature of the player base. If you could find a lawyer to take the case, I'd expect it to be very, very expensive - likely requiring multiple firms in multiple countries - and they'd all want to get paid up front since the best result you could hope for would be an injunction prohibiting PGI from re-selling the Phoenix Pack content.

If you managed to succeed with that, as a player I'd offer you congrats, you just turned yourselves into everything you hate about Harmony Gold and intellectual property laws.

EDIT: In case it isn't obvious, I'm talking to those who are thinking they can and should enforce exclusivity as a material term of the original contract, which AFAIK has been fulfilled years ago. Also, yeah, I am a lawyer in RL. So disclaimer: I'm not offering legal advice or forming an attorney-client relationship with anyone here on this forum.

To my knowledge, you are the first lawyer I "know" in this game.

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

There's two packs that cannot be bought any more, founder and phoenix.

For now.

[Roadkill]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

However PGI is not changing the terms, you bought the Pack under.

They were asking if they could, and we said no.

I get it, Joe, you're a devil-may-care kind of guy. Doesn't apply to anyone but you, though. Some of us care about the terms of the sale, in no small part because PGI has a bad history.

[blood4blood]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

To my knowledge, you are the first lawyer I "know" in this game.

I was too slow deleting my post lol. FWIW, I'm not the only lawyer playing MWO - hell, I wasn't even the only lawyer in my old unit. Mostly we don't get into any real detail or offer opinions on forums for the reasons in my disclaimer, and because we could usually charge for the time if someone really wanted to pursue it.

[Alan Davion]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

They were asking if they could, and we said no.

I get it, Joe, you're a devil-may-care kind of guy. Doesn't apply to anyone but you, though. Some of us care about the terms of the sale, in no small part because PGI has a bad history.

A bad history that, oh, maybe they are trying to repair?

Did anyone ever take that into consideration?

[TKSax]

blood4blood, on 27 May 2015 - 10:26 AM, said:

deleted stuff..

Blood, I agree with everything you say, in fact I was more talking about the fact that Joe would be fine with pgi decided that the Resistance pack was work $180 and trying to collect after the fact by threatening banning from the game if not paid.

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

As to your first point, there's about a half dozen threads about the Phoenix thing from the past week, I suggest looking there.

Only as a result of the poll questions coming up from the, Sorry I was not specific enough I should have said before the event came up, so between the loyalty release and the Phoenix Event, where was all the clamor for the Phoenix Pack to be released again. Hell to be honest with in most of the threads that talked a lot the poll I did not see to many people saying they would buy or wanted it.

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Thirdly, the phrase "Never say never, and always refrain from saying always" comes to mind. Thus IGP, who was in charge of advertising at the time, made a grievous mistake. One which PGI, having since broken from IGP, has tried to fix, in the form of the unlimited sales of Clans and Resistance, and whatever other packs they make up as time goes on.

So again, my point stands. The fact that people are always trying to get PGI to change or fix something, and then turning around and /not/ letting them change or fix something, speaks volumes.

Ahh but you forget, obviously PGI had some input on the Mech Packs because Clan Pack Wave One was released when PGI and IGP were still working together. IGP could not do everything in a vacuum, they had to talk with PGI to see what mechs were available and when.

Edited by TKSax, 27 May 2015 - 10:40 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 27 May 2015 - 10:34 AM, said:

They were asking if they could, and we said no.

I get it, Joe, you're a devil-may-care kind of guy. Doesn't apply to anyone but you, though. Some of us care about the terms of the sale, in no small part because PGI has a bad history.

Not at all. My Honor is my Life.

Joseph Mallan, on 27 May 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

When the offeror, either verbally or by conduct, clearly demonstrates that the offer is no longer open, the offer is considered revoked when learned by the offeree. Where an offer is made to the general public, it can be revoked by furnishing public notice of its termination in the same way in which the offer was publicized.

So legally If I read this right, PGI can publicly say We are going to sell (P) again, cause they told us publicly they were going to sell it in the first place.

Also, is a sales receipt a legal contract?

[TKSax]

stjobe, on 27 May 2015 - 10:33 AM, said:

I just don't understand why it's so very important that the Phoenix pack becomes available again. All the 'mechs except the four (P) variants are already available.

I agree with this whole heartily.

Alan Davion, on 27 May 2015 - 10:37 AM, said:

A bad history that, oh, maybe they are trying to repair?

Did anyone ever take that into consideration?

So you think they can fix the bad history by Breaking their word??? Interesing.

[Joseph Mallan]

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:39 AM, said:

Blood, I agree with everything you say, in fact I was more talking about the fact that Joe would be fine with pgi decided that the Resistance pack was work $180 and trying to collect after the fact by threatening banning from the game if not paid.

You have a problem with this?

I teach my kids to understand about consequences. There is always an option. It may not be the one we want, but there is an option.

In your scenario the option is be banned. So there you go.

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

So you think they can fix the bad history by Breaking their word??? Interesing.

They didn't break their word. They asked to be released from it. A very distinct difference.

[Zeusus]

It'd be silly to sue over this for sure, even if they went ahead and re-released.

Complaint to the competition bureau even (yes that's it's name) of false advertising wouldnt result in you getting more than a refund and maybe PGI a fine. Way more effort than it would be worth, and even then I'm not sure how it'd turn out. And frankly they haven't re-released so right now you'd get nothing.

[Alan Davion]

TKSax, do a general forum search for "Phoenix".

You'll find threads going back at least a couple years starting shortly after the end of the original sale. Whether it's for the original sale again, or for a "Wave 2" with the Macross mechs.

Trust me, they're there. People want the mechs, the geometry, the camo, the colors.

TKSax, on 27 May 2015 - 10:42 AM, said:

So you think they can fix the bad history by Breaking their word??? Interesing.

It seems to me that, judging by what I've read recently, most of the 'bad history' came about as a product of IGP pulling PGI's strings, PGI's actions themselves were secondary. So, the way I see it, PGI should not have to hold itself to IGP's bad word choice during the previous sale.