309 replies to this topic

[Reptilizer]

Rip Snorgan, on 17 May 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

And why I hope all you other "Phoenixes" will also.

*snip*

1st: It could pave the way for new Phoenix Packs down the road. Phoenix Pack II anyone? In my dream world it could contain Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, and Marauder II, but feel free to imagine your own favorite version of this.

2nd: It could infuse more interest and excitement from current players who missed out the first time around, or from new players who are maybe familiar with, or interested in, old Battletech, into the game, and support, interest, and ultimately funding, are all keys to the longevity/success of MWO.

*snip*

Both arguments base on flawed logic.

• If you want them to make new content, do not let them sell old stuff twice. No need to make new stuff if you can get cash for already existing "limited" models. Cash grab.
  
• If you make stuff that was once sold under the label "limited edition" essentially unlimited at any point, who will buy in other "limited editions" then? The people who invested because of the limited character of those mechs (gold mechs anyone?) for sure will not fall for the ruse a second time.

I do not have a clear opinion myself to be honest, but those two arguments you field are in fact arguments against the re-opening of the sale.

[Malleus011]

I still drop frequently in my (P) 'mechs, and did even when they didn't have quirks and weren't very good. So I've played a lot in these chassis, and am attached to all of them.

I'm fine with putting them back on sale, if even a token effort is made to differentiate the original Phoenix pack. Things like changing the letter designator - keeping (P) for the originals - re-skinning the C-Bill bonus 'mechs, changing the Forum titles/badges (add 'Senior' to my Overlord, please), or otherwise marking out the first wave of Phoenix as unique.

Do that much, and I'm OK with it. Placing exactly the same package back on offer doesn't thrill me, because now the 'limited' mechs I've been driving for ages are commonly available, and the (P) designation loses what meaning it had. (Never as cool as an '(F)', but I wasn't around for that, so this was the next best thing). It used to be that seeing somebody with an Overlord or a Guardian tag by their name (or a P by their 'mech) told you that this guy had been around a while, and at least knew the maps and how to press 'R'. Opening the 'mechs back up without any repackaging takes that away; a (P) is just another pilot who purchased content.

[Roadkill]

The only way I'd vote yes is if the new buyers did not get the (P) variants or any of the special pre-sale package benefits.

If they want to create a package that contains all 12 Phoenix Mechs, but substituting in the standard BLR-1G instead of the BLR-1G(P), that's fine.

But no, they may not sell the custom geometry/camo (P) variants again.

[Reptilizer]

Dino Might, on 17 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

The mistake is thinking that digital content is a commodity with value for trading/bartering. Firstly, it's not a zero-sum game. More people getting it does not mean you get less access to yours. It's the height of childishness to demand that nobody gets what you have, because you consider it less valuable if they do.

*snip*

Just for fun:

• Everything one is willing to give (pay) something for in time or money is actually by definition a commoditiy with value for trade.
  
• Money itself is nowadays what you could call a virtual commodity. The numbers at our bank accounts do not actually exist in real world cash (or gold) anymore.
  
• More people getting more money because the national bank decides to do so does actually not limit your access to your money.
  
• BUT what it does is devaluate your money.
  
• Inflation is a *****. Childish much?

Aside from this analogy, reading this thread brings me slowly to the conclusion that it would actually be a really bad idea to allow PGI another sale of phoenix.

Money for content is cool. Money for devaluating stuff and reselling existing content (perhaps once more as a "once i a lifetime" event) may be nice for PGI but ultimately is detrimental to the game.

Edited by Reptilizer, 18 May 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Vandul]

Change the camo/skins, give the (P) designated mechs a new designator. I would recommend ® for 'Re-issue' and we are golden.

[Sundervine]

I say this, have a third option, one that has the Phoenix pack with all new variants, or the variants that did not come with the origonal. THe Locust has 20 variants, Phoenix hawk 15, Tunderbolt 21, Battlemaster over 20. There are plenty of options, you only need to find three that either are or can be time period specific. If you add in the ones that they released after as options that were not in the origonal I see nothing at all wrong with finding three each.

Thus I say give us a third vote rerelease with different variants. You might even get some overlords to rebuy the pack, even bigger money grab! PGI you know you love me for this...

[Sundervine]

O and add new geometry like stated earlier, personally i would love to see the new ORK! WAAAAGH style of geometry from the resistance 2 pack on the battlemaster so that would be great. I might think about rebuying it myself if I could have orcs put extra spikey bits on more of my mechs!

ORK SPIKEY BITS!

Edited by Sundervine, 18 May 2015 - 10:23 AM.

[jay35]

Rip Snorgan, on 17 May 2015 - 08:48 PM, said:

And why I hope all you other "Phoenixes" will also.

First, let me start by acknowledging that I know some/many of you may feel differently, and that I hope you'll hear me out, and consider voting with me after reading some of my thoughts.

1st: It could pave the way for new Phoenix Packs down the road. Phoenix Pack II anyone? In my dream world it could contain Valkyrie, Phoenix Hawk, Marauder, and Marauder II, but feel free to imagine your own favorite version of this.

2nd: It could infuse more interest and excitement from current players who missed out the first time around, or from new players who are maybe familiar with, or interested in, old Battletech, into the game, and support, interest, and ultimately funding, are all keys to the longevity/success of MWO.

3rd: It could allow an opportunity for some of you who did not, or were not able to at the time, to upgrade lower levels of Phoenix packs to Overlord packs.

4th: It allows PGI to revamp the Phoenix content to be more along the lines of what has launched with the newer packs, and then retroactively apply it to the account of Original Phoenix owners as well (while allowing us to also hang on to our original content).

5th: I don't personally feel it would affect me negatively in any way (though I know some of you might disagree), so I see no reason not to.

6th: And finally, for those who might be leaning towards a "NO" vote, consider that it might create opportunities for PGI to add bonus rewards/items for Original Phoenix owners, as a way of saying "Thank You", and assuaging in some small way, the concerns that some of you have about it. Some possibilities I could suggest, would be along the lines of the 2 following suggestions...

1). As with current mech packs, which grant all levels of titles, and badges to the top tier package owners, every Overlord would now have all 4 badges and titles. THEN, perhaps original Phoenix owners could be granted NEW titles and badges that reflect the "Original Owner" status, say something like "Phoenix Overlord", "Phoenix Talon", etc. And a modified version of our original badge, possibly the badge we originally had with a border of fire, or something to that effect. Also perhaps there could be new cockpit items that show the original badge but with a border of fire around the icon. Medallions, mugs, steins, etc.

2). New Phoenix packs could perhaps have the same camo for the Phoenix variants as the Resistance mechs currently have, and Original Phoenix owners could be gifted a new set of Phoenix mechs with the Resistance camo, or even, the Resistance camo as something that they could apply to their Phoenix mechs, but the original Phoenix camo would still be unique to original Phoenix owners.

Anyhow, the truth is, for me, I'd personally vote yes even without the above additions to the idea, but I can understand where people who disagree with me are coming from, and would hope, that we might all vote "YES" when the time comes, if things like the above were added to the mix.

Any other Phoenix owners wish to chime in?

Cheers!

-Rip

These are actually all good reasons to re-open the Founders packages as well, so those who were unable to get them at the time or who have started since but want to collect all the mechs, have the opportunity to do so as well.

[jay35]

Dino Might, on 17 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

The mistake is thinking that digital content is a commodity with value for trading/bartering. Firstly, it's not a zero-sum game. More people getting it does not mean you get less access to yours. It's the height of childishness to demand that nobody gets what you have, because you consider it less valuable if they do.

Does more people having those mechs with the special geometry make yours less useful/effective/available? Your complaint is centered around the idea that more people having those mechs will make you feel less special. Are you kidding me? A mech with a special letter is what you need to make you feel special? I feel bad for you if this is really the case.

If it helps, I'll give you an exclusive super secret squirrel society trading card. I will only make one of them, and it's all yours.

More good justification to re-open Founders packages as well. Price the set of Founders mechs, badges, and titles for around $300 (so slightly more than a Golden Clan Mech) and you'd probably find some whales who would like to collect all the mechs and finally have a way to get the four Founders mechs they missed out on initially.

There is no true exclusivity in MWO. PGI taught us that with how they handled the Loyalty mechs. So there's really no good reason not to do it. It will bring in more revenue at the high end of the spectrum while not costing them anything since the content already exists. A $300 Founders replay would easily be the highest ROI package ever offered even if they only sold a few dozen of them, because there is close to zero new development required.

[lshtaria]

I don't understand the snobbery of some phoenix owners. How long has it been since we had the phoenix sale? What benefit do we possibly have by keeping the (P) variants exclusive? Really the only thing we have is up to 6 mechs with slight geometry differences and 30% CB bonus. Are we really that self-obsessed that we must keep these to ourselves? So what if it was once an exclusive package? What do we have to gain by locking out anyone who might want to purchase them?

Oh yeah that red star because I'm so self-obsessed I don't want any more people to have one.

Get over yourselves and all this petty PGI hate and vote yes.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

It may be wiser to do a Phoenix 2 pack with different variants and skins.

[Xenon Codex]

I will vote YES.

My view as an Overlord and veteran MWO player is that all "packs" should be available to anyone, anytime. The original Clan packs are still available, and so should the Phoenix packs. I hope that this will be PGI's policy going forward.

I don't see it as just a money grab. I see it as opening up buying options for all players, especially new players wanting to quickly populate their mech stables.

[Ragtag soldier]

Rip Snorgan, on 17 May 2015 - 10:04 PM, said:

All that word meant, in that context, is that we "exclusively", as owners of Phoenix packs, unlocked that pattern for our standard variant Phoenix mechs, for free, with our purchase. Which we did, and any new future Phoenix packs will never change that.

it didn't mean that, in that context, until the changed their mind. the concept of selling a product, then changing the details of the sale AFTER people have bought it is an unfair business practice. this is naturally the sort of thing that makes paying customers mad.

Dino Might, on 17 May 2015 - 10:51 PM, said:

Seriously, grow up. Offer a compelling reason to not open up the Phoenix package again other than "but then I won't be special!" If you can provide some legitimate reasons such as consumer impacts, mech diversity/balance, or other legitimate, measurable aspects, then I'll stop arguing with you.

the complaint is not on simply the exclucivity of the item itself, it's the level of integrity the resale of the package shows to their customer base. why should PGI be allowed to simply go back on promises they made simply because it was how they were selling product at the time, when ignoring what they were offering will make them more now? why not simply obsolete 'mechs in the future and pull them out of people's inventories to make them more likely to purchase newer 'mechs once it gets hard to sell people on new chassis that don't offer anything? the complaint stems that people already said "don't release it again, we were told it was exclusive" once and PGI is trying to argue their word is only as good as it avoids interfering with their profits, which is a valid complaint.

Joseph Mallan, on 18 May 2015 - 03:41 AM, said:

Limited time only Means it won't go on forever. If I stop providing something for a while, then start providing it I am limiting the time it is available. If they had said "One time only" then put it back on the shelf, then they are doing something wrong. But limited time isn't one time only.

it was thoroughly implied at the time that it was a one time only sale for the (P) 'mechs. their arguments are currently very underhanded abut the whole matter, which should honestly be reason enough for them to 1: not do it and 2: review their wording in future content releases much more carefully.

[stjobe]

Ragtag soldier, on 18 May 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

it was thoroughly implied at the time that it was a one time only sale for the (P) 'mechs

It was more than "implied", it was explicitly stated in the Phoenix FAQ that this was a one-time only deal:

Quote

Q: How are the Phoenix Battlemechs cosmetically and functionally different from the Mechs already in-game?
A: The Phoenix Variants of each Project Phoenix Battlemech comes packed with the following cosmetic and functional perks:
Unique and Exclusive Custom Designed Exterior
30% C-Bill boost
10% Loyalty Point Boost
Important! These Phoenix Variants will NEVER again be available to purchase or to unlock once the sale offer has ended.

Those are PGI's own words, and I don't see how anyone can read them and argue that the (P) 'mechs should be sold again.

If you want to package up the non-(P) 'mechs in a bundle, throw in some Premium time, some cockpit items and whatnots, go right ahead. But the (P) 'mechs are off-limits.

[Malleus011]

Kyocera, on 18 May 2015 - 10:52 AM, said:

I don't understand the snobbery of some phoenix owners. How long has it been since we had the phoenix sale? What benefit do we possibly have by keeping the (P) variants exclusive? Really the only thing we have is up to 6 mechs with slight geometry differences and 30% CB bonus. Are we really that self-obsessed that we must keep these to ourselves? So what if it was once an exclusive package? What do we have to gain by locking out anyone who might want to purchase them?

Oh yeah that red star because I'm so self-obsessed I don't want any more people to have one.

Get over yourselves and all this petty PGI hate and vote yes.

This is the opposite of a persuasive argument, sir. The guys who feel like they should vote 'No' believe they have legitimate reasons for doing so. You might not agree with them, but calling them snobs and insulting them will do nothing to bring them around to your way of thinking - in fact, will likely cause them to become more stubborn in their opposition because you've insulted their position instead of engaging it.

PGI clearly stated that Phoenix was a limited time offer. They are asking those of us who purchased Phoenix for our permission for them to change that. There's nothing wrong with saying 'No'. It doesn't make a player selfish, or entitled, or in any way bad or wrong. PGI offered us a deal on certain terms, which we accepted. Holding them to their word is not wrong.

That being said, there's no harm in their asking us for our permission to re-open the sale of Phoenix Packs. Our voting 'Yes' to reopen Phoenix would be an act of generosity and kindness on the park of Phoenix pack owners.

You can request an act of generosity, but not demand it.

St. Jobe is perfectly right to say that he bought an exclusive pack, and that nobody else should be allowed to purchase it - because that was the deal PGI made when we paid them money for this content. That doesn't make him a bad person, or selfish. He's just happy with the terms of the deal and sees no reason why he should generously give up his rights to exclusive content.

IMHO, the only way PGI can hope to do this is to alter the content. Even if only 10% of PP owners vote no, that's 10% of a paying customer base, whom they would be defrauding by changing the PP exclusivity. Altering the content is the only way I can see that they can appease players like St Jobe and still sell PPs to new customers.

Really, they should be figuring out what incentives they can offer PP owners to encourage them to vote yes, if they want to sell this content again. Give the 'No' voters an incentive to change their minds.

[Simbacca]

Rip Snorgan, on 17 May 2015 - 10:52 PM, said:

That's my thought, as an approach for a middle ground. Re-release the pack, but give the original purchasers a load of extra perks.

I'd hope this could make the largest number of people possible at least content, if not happy.

This I agree with. All parties benefit.

The question, what perks?

[RoboPatton]

OMG will they vote yes? Will they vote no?

Oh wait...

[Jetfire]

Vandul, on 18 May 2015 - 10:14 AM, said:

Change the camo/skins, give the (P) designated mechs a new designator. I would recommend ® for 'Re-issue' and we are golden.

I agree. Call it the Rebirth pack. remove the custom camo and geo.

[WarHippy]

stjobe, on 17 May 2015 - 09:48 PM, said:

I'm going to vote "no".

When you market something as a one-time offer, you'd better be prepared to never offer it again.

Its still exclusive to the Phoenix pack. What that little pic doesn't say is that Phoenix packs can't be for sale again only that that particular pattern is exclusive to the Phoenix packs.

[DAYLEET]

stjobe, on 18 May 2015 - 09:39 AM, said:

PGI, make a new pack with the Phoenix 'mechs if you want - toss in anything you care to, premium time, cockpit items, whatever. But if you sell those (P) 'mechs again, with their exclusive (there's that word again) geometry and their CB & LP bonuses..

Exactly, make a new phoenix pack with the new variant that were released after the pack and fill in if theres not enough. Make a new paint, add 30%, have cool vanity stuff like the grid iron had, change the badges, be interesting ffs dont just resale the same thing.

INTEREST EVERYONE INSTEAD OF JUST THOSE WHO MISSED ON A DEAL WHEN THEY HATED YOUR GUTS.

Edited by DAYLEET, 18 May 2015 - 01:15 PM.