175 replies to this topic

[Celtic Warrior]

IraqiWalker, on 22 May 2015 - 09:58 AM, said:

Let me put it this way: It's not possible for anyone to have owned clan mechs as long as I have. Since I pre-ordered wave 1. I've piloted my clan mechs regularly since they debuted, and learned how to use them.

This means a couple of things:
1- Maybe you don't know how to pilot your clan mechs, and use their equipment that well

I like how every IS player always reverts back to "maybe you don't know how to pilot your clan mech" but then cries on the forums about nerfing clan mechs because they're to OP. If you IS players would learn how to pilot your IS mechs you wouldn't need to cry on the forums anymore.

And yes I've read your post, doesn't change my what I've said above.

Edited by Celtic Warrior, 23 May 2015 - 10:17 AM.

[Saxdasm762]

The Timberwolf and the Stormcrow were the 2 main mechs used by clan factions because they were the only medium and heavy that actually had endo and fero. They don't have fixed jj's that cant ever be removed which means they actually have tonnage to put a decent load out on. The Nova(only clan mech close to the Stormcrow in weight) is squishy and cant carry the loadout of the stormcrow. The Ice Ferret is too light to be a frontline mech. heavies are about the same, minus the hellbringer. assaults are too slow for anything and are high priority targets so they die to quickly to be of much use in CW. our lights are a laughing stock.

Now lets talk about weapons. The beam duration on pretty much all clan lasers is terribly long, which is bad for trading with IS mechs. All of their damage is done in less than a second to 1 or 2 locations. Clan lasers take more than a second to fire, generate way more heat, for slightly more damage spread across more locations at range(because the IS mech fired then torso twisted to spread damage around). Clan ppc's have horrible hit registration. I watched a friend of mine fire at an atlas, shoot through it and kill the stalker behind it. clan ballistics are a joke since they spread their damage everywhere. C-LRM's are way easier to shoot down with ams. so the only weapons that haven't been nerfed into the ground for clan are srm's and gauss at this point. Everything else is worse than its IS counterpart.

There is a reason that the IS has a WAY larger player base than clan, its because everything that the clan gets is then nerfed to the point of uselessness.

[IraqiWalker]

Celtic Warrior, on 23 May 2015 - 08:43 AM, said:

I like how every IS player always reverts back to "maybe you don't know how to pilot your clan mech" but then cries on the forums about nerfing clan mechs because they're to OP. If you IS players would learn how to pilot your IS mechs you wouldn't need to cry on the forums anymore.

And yes I've read your post, doesn't change my what I've said above.

I like how you assume that just because I'm an IS player, and you're a clan player, I don't know how to pilot clan mechs better than you. I have not demanded any nerfs on these forums, however, when these last nerfs happened, I defended them. I never cried out "PGI PLZ NERF" so drop the assumption there. From when wave 1 first popped out I was running around telling people how to take down clan mechs, and I've more than a dozen times referenced my Orion-K clan buster build, with the AC20, and SRMs.

If the equipment is working just fine for me, and another one can't get it to work right, the fault is with that person, not the equipment.


I suggest you find the nearest school, and sign up for classes on this newfangled thing called "reading comprehension".

The comment you are quoting here, deals with Clan ACs. If I'm making the clan ACs work, and someone else isn't making them work, the fault isn't with the ACs. We're using the exact same UAC 10, if I'm getting good damage, and kills with it, and someone else isn't, would you blame the AC, or the player?

Spoiler

Hint: If you answer "blame the AC" you are disqualified from any future discussions that involve rational deduction, and intelligent debate.

Saxdasm762, on 23 May 2015 - 03:46 PM, said:

The Timberwolf and the Stormcrow were the 2 main mechs used by clan factions because they were the only medium and heavy that actually had endo and fero. They don't have fixed jj's that cant ever be removed which means they actually have tonnage to put a decent load out on. The Nova(only clan mech close to the Stormcrow in weight) is squishy and cant carry the loadout of the stormcrow. The Ice Ferret is too light to be a frontline mech. heavies are about the same, minus the hellbringer. assaults are too slow for anything and are high priority targets so they die to quickly to be of much use in CW. our lights are a laughing stock.

Now lets talk about weapons. The beam duration on pretty much all clan lasers is terribly long, which is bad for trading with IS mechs. All of their damage is done in less than a second to 1 or 2 locations. Clan lasers take more than a second to fire, generate way more heat, for slightly more damage spread across more locations at range(because the IS mech fired then torso twisted to spread damage around). Clan ppc's have horrible hit registration. I watched a friend of mine fire at an atlas, shoot through it and kill the stalker behind it. clan ballistics are a joke since they spread their damage everywhere. C-LRM's are way easier to shoot down with ams. so the only weapons that haven't been nerfed into the ground for clan are srm's and gauss at this point. Everything else is worse than its IS counterpart.

There is a reason that the IS has a WAY larger player base than clan, its because everything that the clan gets is then nerfed to the point of uselessness.

You do realize that only the ERLL, LPL, and ERML have a burn duration longer than a second right? They are the longest reaching beam weapons in the game. They kinda need it. All the others burn for fun in under a second.

EDIT: Also, the main reason there's a bigger IS population is that IS mechs generally appear to be cheaper than their Clan counterparts. So people farm for them. Not to mention that the most recommended starter mechs are all IS mechs.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2015 - 03:59 PM.

[Void Angel]

Yet another thread full of disingenuous whines relying on silly arguments like "well, in the lore, the Timber Wolf is supposed to..." or, "we don't have what we paid for because the 'mechs changed!" If you want to actually be taken seriously, you'll have to do better than crying because a game which you knew would change over time, changed over time; or pretending that the development team is somehow breaking the rules by not turning MWO into a combat appliance for a BattleTech LARP; or claiming nerd cred over players who didn't go read up on Battletech before playing to appeal to your own authority - and thus claim MWO as your private, nerdly demesne.

The list goes on, but my point stands: if you want to be taken seriously, quit this silly cryfest and actually play the 'mechs to see how it really stands - and give PGI good data to see if your assessment of the 'mech might be correct.

[cSand]

guy if you can't outgun an IS medium in your TBR then


nobody can help you

[Siej]

As we say here in the Midwest, "If you don't like the weather, just wait 15 minutes. It'll change."

With games like this, the only constant is change. With that, let's look at a couple of other points.

1. Battletech tabletop is a different game altogether. It is also the source material. It is also played a lot differently than Mechwarrior. It is a long running, strategy/tactics game with lots of miniatures and no real-time element. It's kind of like a movie compared to a book. You've all heard it and groaned. "The book was better." Duh. It's a different medium. Mechwarrior should be like the LotR movies. Representing the original work very well but being true to its own format. You can not expect the movie to be the same as the book, and thus Mechwarrior cannot be just like Battletech.

2. Clans versus Inner Sphere. In Battletech, there are other balancing factors between Inner Sphere and Clans in the latest iterations of the game. IS got a lot of new stuff to balance things out with the clans while retaining some flavor. Clans got new and neat things. Clan mechs also cost more points, and then there is the Star versus Lance thing. They aren't doing that with Mechwarrior, they are keeping it 12 vs 12. Thus, Clans and IS mechs need to be balanced somehow. Thus, the "Clans are supposed to be more powerful/scarie/intimidating" argument is not valid in this context. I can see why clan players would be angry about that since it is not matching the source material, however, I believe some understanding is in order. PGI is hardly the only company to constantly be re-balancing their game.

3. Can we, for a moment, consider that Clan vs Inner Sphere would be boring if everything was the same? Isn't the point that they are different? Omnipods are an advantage because you can change your hardpoints. Weapons are lighter and take less crit space. It's kind of required, considering the fixed nature of the rest of the mech. It is both a bonus and a hindrance, which ideally sets up a certain balance in the mechs. Inner sphere mechs are more customizable in a lot of ways (upgrades, engines) but cannot change their hard points. They are what they are. Right now, there are a lot more IS mechs to choose from, so it is less limiting because you can always get a different variant. However, as clan mechs expand and more omnipod options open up, each mech will become more customizable within their limits. This seems, to me, a nice balance.

4. We all agree that certain mechs, IS and Clan, are better than others. That's why quirks became a thing in the first place, to try and bump up chassis and variants that were mostly in disfavor. The fact that they are adjusting the quirks (yes, IS got a nerf recently as well), a relatively new system, is far from surprising. We are now approaching the time when the 3rd wave of Clan mechs is coming. After the 2nd wave, the Timberwolf and Stormcrow are still the most prevalent mechs being used. Granted, this is also from a pretty short list of mechs. I'm hoping as time goes on, better mech variety will appear.

5. We all get frustrated when our favorite thing gets messed with. I get that. However, constructive criticism gets things done. Complaining just makes everyone angry and nobody listens to it. Balance your disappointment with some solutions to the problem in a concrete way. Making things up (2-3 seconds?!) does not help your cause and just makes you look stupid. I just played a bunch of CW games, and the most seen clan mechs I saw were still the Timberwolf and Stormcrow.

6. Let's be a bit realistic. Someone above posted it was .365 seconds longer burntime or something around there. In a FPS simulation game like this, .365 seconds or whatever is significant. Clan lasers have always had a longer burn time to start, even if some were only .25 seconds longer or some-such. Everyone who played clan mechs noticed it. The cERLL was crazy long, felt like, until they shortened it. So let's not rationalize what seems short in our daily lives with time conception on the battlefield of this game. I think it's a bit much, honestly, but I notice it less since I don't tend to boat anything all that much. That being said, it does not portend the end of Timberwolf or Scarecrow use. There are plenty of advantages for those mechs, still. On the other hand, people saying that smaller and lighter weapons are NOT an advantage, I think that's a bit disingenuous as well. I don't think it's as bad as some IS players like to say, but it is that advantage with the disadvantage of chassis space limitations that defines the clan mechs at this point.

7. Right now, clan mechs still enjoy longer ranges and usually larger weapon loadouts with a bit more heat. IS enjoys front loaded ballistic and missile damage with shorter ranges. Can we embrace these differences as a good thing rather than complain that IS needs longer ranges or Clans need less heat or whatever? It's cherry-picking. Pros and Cons like those are a good thing. If you're looking for advantage, you're coming from the wrong place. Flavor and balance is more fun for all.

TL:DR: Whining and crying just annoys everyone and nobody cares. 12 vs 12 means balancing mechs 1 on 1. Attempt objectivity or at least admit you're just mad about someone messing with your favorite toy.

[IraqiWalker]

ZhennZ, on 23 May 2015 - 05:03 PM, said:

Beautiful post

[Niko85]

the only answer to pgi is all clanmechs get reconfigured to streakboats xDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

[Josef Koba]

I could probably add a little bit to the discussion here and there; like everyone else, I have an opinion on the matter. But I'll say real quick that it really doesn't matter what icon is below a pilot's name. We were all IS pilots (or lone wolves piloting IS mechs) once , and that means that IS bought clan packs. Just because a pilot currently has a contract with an IS house doesn't mean said pilot isn't competent or even incredibly good in a clan mech. Since the stats reset, I've piloted my Dire Wolves more than any other mech in my rather large stable (~160). Far, far more, in fact. And I think the stats reset took place before the clan packs were released. My W/L ratio is about a 1.5 in those mechs, and I have a 2.0 KDR in them. I've killed scores and scores of clan pilots who were in their clan mechs, while I was also in my clan mech, with my Davion icon and cockpit bauble hanging. I have a contract with Davion simply because I've always been affiliated with Davion and I hate change. I've only dropped in CW like 20 times - though I intended on doing so more often until I realized it wasn't for the solo/small group demographic to which I belong. I'm not saying I'm a top tier pilot or intrinsically better than any of you dedicated clanners, but I do know how to competently drive and build clan mechs. I suspect the same is true for many on here.

[jaxjace]

Cmdr Killian, on 20 May 2015 - 02:53 AM, said:

Its pretty much accepted that the ONLY advantage clan mechs have over InnerSphere mechs are their lasers. It seems like each patch, more and more of the reasons to *OWN* clan mechs are removed.

I don't know if any of the dev's ever played Battletech/MechWarrior before.. But, The clan's are actually supposed to be intimidating.

A Timberwolf is supposed to instill a little fear. In game, We don't even bother prioritizing them because they aren't much of a threat, especially now.

First you make 2 of the worst mechs I've ever seen. The Gargoyle and the Summoner. how do either of those mechs make it past Conceptual Design of their weapons? Neither can mount weapons enough to defend THEMSELVES let alone contribute to a battle group.

Infact there are only 2 clan mech chassis as of my writing this that even are capable enough to consider a danger. (I'm not going to mention which 2 out of fear PGI will ruin Them just so all the mechs are the same with no advantage to anything)

The Timberwolf now in some quirk configs has over 20% heat penalties, AND 20% laser duration nurf. On what planet are these ideas from?

The Timberwolf has become a mech that isn't any fun anymore because it cant even out gun an inner sphere MEDIUM one on one and come out on top without disproportionate damage done to it.

Please stop taking the mechs I paid far too much money for, and RUINING them just so you can sell the next mech pack. at this point I feel rather cheated. Stop punishing people for finding new weapon configurations by making the mechs have so many disadvantages that there's no reason to play them!

Also! Clan mechs already are stupidly NOT modular. I mean Hell, Inner sphere mechs are more "Omni"mechs than Clan! You cant swap the engine. Cant swap the armor. Cant move internal stuff that EVEN INNERSPHERE mechs can! No endo-steel options, No ferroferibus options. No engine options *AT ALL!* Then you make half the omnipods garbage. Then you punish people for installing omnipods that make sense! Limit our choices and then punish the player.

At this point you have pretty much made the Timberwolf and Stormcrow Un-competitive with even other clan mechs. let alone inner sphere.

Anyone who knows Battletech/MechWarrior can tell you when a Timberwolf isn't intimidating, you've balanced the game wrong. You should be IMPROVING mechs, not NURFING them. Try Nurfing something inner sphere for once. I've been buying every pack you release to support the game. Until you start making the clan mechs actually intimidating again, I'm spending NO more money on this game. For all I know, I'll buy a new mech pack and the week later they'll have a 25% laser heat Nurf for no reason. I strongly encourage everyone in the game who feels PGI is taking advantage of us to boycott buying new content until they make the *OLD* content worth while. How would you feel to buy the Direwolf pack of mechs.. Just to have them make your mechs pathetic and NOT what you paid for anymore.

It pains me to say this, but maybe they need to rename the Timberwolf to PaperDragon.
That's what it feels like now. Thank you SO much for that

I love it when people dont know what they are buying. apparently its YOU who never even did the slightest research into battletech before joining the game. Those clan mechs arent supposed to make you **** and win, if you suck you suck, clan mechs dont magically make you better, literally the omni system is in the description. If you bought your clan mechs because you thought you would get to enjoy the "easy" mode then you deserve to lose your money scrub.

[CN9 ACE PILOT]

Is there anything left on the horse to beat on? This topic has been going on since the first batch of clan mechs came out. First it was the P2W, then it was the qq P2W got nerfed, and on and on.

Lore wise, Clan mech's die just like any IS mech if you shoot at them enough and yes; The pilots were bred to pilot them perfectly and you were not.

The issue i see is not the nerfs, but the "I want to rambo their whole team" mentality from the p2w days, when it's actually a "team" game. You either work together or loose when everyone wants to do their l33t damage.

But eh...As long as things die when i pew'pew' with my team, i don't see an issue. Then again the only changes i ever notice are those to my CN9's.

[jaxjace]

Jimmy DiGriz, on 20 May 2015 - 04:21 AM, said:

You seem to miss my point TWIAFU, MWO is not Battletech, this is an entirely different and new game which is based on Battletech - I think of it like NFL being based on, but different from, Rugby i.e. a similar game using some of the root ideas but you need no knowledge of the antecedents to either play, or enjoy watching it.

I am quite offended by your comments to be honest - Jar Jar Binks!! - and was only replying to the OP to clarify my viewpoint and offer some sort of support but clearly in your eyes as I am not a Battletech nerd I therefore have no legitimate view to offer. Well, I beg to differ, I don't play Battletech but I DO PLAY MWO and that is the game I care about.

Please don't expect any more from me on this thread.

Dude that is a ******* HORRIBLE analogy, and yes, we dont want people like you who dont care about battle tech to jar jar binks it, Heres an appropriate analogy. Imagine if in a star wars game the star destroyers were balanced out to Mon Calamari Cruisers...oh wait.

[jaxjace]

Darwins Dog, on 20 May 2015 - 12:37 PM, said:

I can't help but think that this sort of attitude is part of the reason why Mechwarrior/Battletech was basically dead for such a long time, and why even now this game has a relatively small following. New players are not going to be enticed to play a game because of bits of fluff in long out of print sourcebooks, or a series (badly written) novels. They are going to be attracted to stompy robots first, and then motivated to learn about the lore. I started playing BT nearly 20 years ago when I saw some really cool robot figures at my local hobby shop. I got into mechwarrior shortly after (MW2), read the fiction, played clicky-tech, and so on.

Games need to evolve to attract new players, otherwise they will die.

Using lore or TT for balance is a mistake.
New player: "Why is the balance of this game so bad?"
Battletech veteran: "Well you see in 2784 Alexander Kerensky led the Star League Defense Force in an exodus to the outer periphery..."
New player: *dozes off*
Battletech veteran:"... and that's why the Dire Wolf, or Daishi, is vastly superior to your Atlas. You should really read the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy, then it will all make sense."
New player:"Sure, I'll get right on that." *uninstalls MWO*

LOL

I hear your point. But to be honest, thats why this is MWO not Hawken, they are trying to satisfy both the vets and the noobs, and to be frank, i think they have. Clan tech is not ridiclously OP yet it is UNIQUE. IS tech can compete with clan tech if you are willing to spend the cbills on "lostech" like endo, doubleHS, ferro, and the grand daddy of all IS advantages, their priceless XL engines. Almost all IS mechs when XLd become faster, more heat effeciant, and can load more effective loadouts and deliver their damage more effectively.

The Dire Wolf can glass cannon better than atlas, I will give it that, however the Atlas can do several things better than the dire wolf and thats what makes this game great. A dire wolf in this game is not the be all end all, neither is an atlas, in fact they are balanced out fairly well. The dire can glass cannon with dual gauss and laservomit better than the atlas but the atlas can go faster, with a comparable alpha, only slightly less DPS and if you take ECM and pin point IS autocannons and atlas cornerpeaking then its fine, on a side note the dire can also hill hump better.

[IraqiWalker]

jaxjace, on 23 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

Dude that is a ******* HORRIBLE analogy, and yes, we dont want people like you who dont care about battle tech to jar jar binks it, Heres an appropriate analogy. Imagine if in a star wars game the star destroyers were balanced out to Mon Calamari Cruisers...oh wait.

Jax, you're losing this argument.

If that starwars game had a cap of 12 against 12, and the empire's equivalent to the Mon Calamari is the SD, then yes, they would be balanced against one another.


EDIT: Also, your post is way too harsh, and not constructive. Players like Digriz aren't going to Jar Jar binks the game. They're not the developers. Also, last I checked, my knowledge of the detailed events of the battle of Tukayyid (the lore one, not this one) has no impact on the balance of the game.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 23 May 2015 - 09:25 PM.

[Anunknownlurker]

I know I said I wouldn't post on this thread again but @jaxjace, your unpleasant and vaguely insulting post in reply to me would have meant more if I had understood it; I mean I know what a Star Destroyer is, I've seen the films, but what is a "Mon Calamari Cruiser" and what do either of them have to do with MWO?

I am sorry if you thought my analogy of NFL/Rugby was "*******HORRIBLE" - I'd have happily accepted "incorrect" by the way
I am sorry if you don't want "people like me..." in the game but I am most certainly not leaving because of you.

All the best

[Celtic Warrior]

IraqiWalker, on 23 May 2015 - 03:58 PM, said:

I like how you assume that just because I'm an IS player, and you're a clan player, I don't know how to pilot clan mechs better than you. I have not demanded any nerfs on these forums, however, when these last nerfs happened, I defended them. I never cried out "PGI PLZ NERF" so drop the assumption there. From when wave 1 first popped out I was running around telling people how to take down clan mechs, and I've more than a dozen times referenced my Orion-K clan buster build, with the AC20, and SRMs.

If the equipment is working just fine for me, and another one can't get it to work right, the fault is with that person, not the equipment.


I suggest you find the nearest school, and sign up for classes on this newfangled thing called "reading comprehension".

The comment you are quoting here, deals with Clan ACs. If I'm making the clan ACs work, and someone else isn't making them work, the fault isn't with the ACs. We're using the exact same UAC 10, if I'm getting good damage, and kills with it, and someone else isn't, would you blame the AC, or the player?

Spoiler

Hint: If you answer "blame the AC" you are disqualified from any future discussions that involve rational deduction, and intelligent debate.

You do realize that only the ERLL, LPL, and ERML have a burn duration longer than a second right? They are the longest reaching beam weapons in the game. They kinda need it. All the others burn for fun in under a second.

EDIT: Also, the main reason there's a bigger IS population is that IS mechs generally appear to be cheaper than their Clan counterparts. So people farm for them. Not to mention that the most recommended starter mechs are all IS mechs.

I was commenting on your #1 topic so maybe a little reading comprehension on your end is needed as well. Thanks though for your input.

[CainenEX]

That begining post... If you haven't even realized how GOOD the timber wolf is EVEN after all the nerfs then you sir are beyond hope. I own one. It's freaking amazing. I shoot lasers and things die. Not even mastered yet...

I would suggest joining a unit and playing with other pilots. They will help you improve and not cry over such an awesome mech

[Striker2237]

VileKnight, on 20 May 2015 - 01:59 PM, said:

I think you are misinformed about the meta right now sir. The meta is not PPCs & Guass. Hell, during the CW event I rarely saw PPC's on the field on either side. Clan mechs are indeed running a lot of Guass, but that point is void because the changes in this last patch did nothing to impact that weapon system.

I could be wrong, but I just don't see it in play.

I think that I do agree with your statement that players will eventually go back to other weapon systems now that these new changes are in play. Personally I hope this will help push some much needed tweaks for Clan UAC's.

You are right, no comp team uses PPCs anymore as they are useless at range due to velo and are useless up close due to heat

Commissar Aku, on 20 May 2015 - 03:47 PM, said:

Not my fault your ELO sucks. Play against a real comp team like CGBI or the 228. Laser vomit is noobs noob tubing it and it is more annoying than it is bad. However, your comment of they will just do the same thing on different mechs is fine, if they do that other mechs aren't the timber or the crow, which are still even with the nerf OP as sin.

This is like Liao complaining they weren't allowed to cheat because they are "player aides" not hacks. If you want laser vomit might I suggest the Gargoyle or the Nova, as they can boat but don't have as much armor as the timby or the stormcrow..

"dies of laughter"

[IceHawk00]

TWIAFU, on 20 May 2015 - 03:44 AM, said:

With respect, this is why we cannot have nice things and will only get worse with the Steamtards.

If players have no knowledge of the BT universe in which we find ourselves playing and enter this game just as 'big stompy robots' fighting that lack of knowledge coupled with feedback off that lack of knowledge will push this game farther from it's core roots and cannon just to mimic other crap "big stompy robot" games, like Hawkken.

Learn some of the lore and cannon behind the game you are playing. It will give meaning and you just may learn something behind the game you play. BT has a huge, rich, and colorful in-game history and is much, much more then just "big stompy robots".

The people with the knowledge of the BT Universe want to protect it in MWO.

Do not want those without any knowledge of BT to Jar-Jar Binks the game setting we love.

Preach on brother!

[IceHawk00]

CN9 ACE PILOT, on 23 May 2015 - 08:44 PM, said:

Is there anything left on the horse to beat on? This topic has been going on since the first batch of clan mechs came out. First it was the P2W, then it was the qq P2W got nerfed, and on and on.

Lore wise, Clan mech's die just like any IS mech if you shoot at them enough and yes; The pilots were bred to pilot them perfectly and you were not.

The issue i see is not the nerfs, but the "I want to rambo their whole team" mentality from the p2w days, when it's actually a "team" game. You either work together or loose when everyone wants to do their l33t damage.

But eh...As long as things die when i pew'pew' with my team, i don't see an issue. Then again the only changes i ever notice are those to my CN9's.

R.I.P. Yen-Lo-Wang right arm geometry

Edited by IceHawk00, 24 May 2015 - 12:35 PM.