93 replies to this topic

[Kristov Kerensky]

MrMadguy, on 20 May 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Ok, TBRs and SCRs were considered OP and nerfed. But they aren't the only 'Mechs, that are OP and therefore nerfing them and not nerfing the other unbalanced and OP 'Mechs - is kind of hypocritical. So, I'll be ok with TBR and SCR nerf only if other OP 'Mechs will be nerfed too. Right here and right now.

I'll give you an example. We all know, that almost all IS Lights are OP in comparison with Clan ones. So, PGI stated, that Clan can't have it's own unique features, like strong TBRs and SCRs. Then why IS should have it's own unique features, like strong Light 'Mechs?

Ok. We all know, that IS Light are OP. Right? Then, I think, in order to keep the balance fair and not hypocritical, every IS Light should get -20% movement speed and/or -20% armor negative quirks.

IS Lights are OP are they? The Firestarter is OP, we've complained about that Mech since shortly after it was added and it became clear that there were serious issues with it's hitboxes, which combined with the firepower it carries, really makes it stupidly OP. They've addressed the firepower issue, somewhat, with the SAME patch that hit the Timby and SCrow, or did you miss that? I'm betting you saw it, but it doesn't matter to you because reality is, you don't want the Timby and SCrow touched AT ALL.

Raven and Spider HAD hitbox issues once upon a time, those got fixed a while ago, guess you missed that as well? If you can't take out one of those, that's entirely on you, it's not the Mechs. They are only a problem is the pilot is a skilled nutjob, otherwise, they are easy kills.

And, oddly enough, after the laser nerfs the SCrow and Timby just got hit with, they seem to be doing JUST AS WELL AS BEFORE! Seems the nerfs didn't have the horrible results so many people screamed and whined they would have. Wonder if they feel silly now that they cancelled their Wave III preorders, quit their units, and left the game? Probably not, since most of the people who claimed they did those things didn't actually do them, just like they didn't do them the other 50 times they said they were going to due to changes to the game.

If you suck and you know it, drive a Timby, SCrow or Firestarter. Even after the nerfs, they are still extremely easy to use and do well with regardless of having no skill.

[Juodas Varnas]

Kristov Kerensky, on 20 May 2015 - 08:24 AM, said:

Raven and Spider HAD hitbox issues once upon a time, those got fixed a while ago, guess you missed that as well? If you can't take out one of those, that's entirely on you, it's not the Mechs. They are only a problem is the pilot is a skilled nutjob, otherwise, they are easy kills.

Actually Raven still has hitbox issues.
His leg hitboxes are actually LARGER than the model itself.
At least the last time i checked.

[Apnu]

MrMadguy, on 20 May 2015 - 06:52 AM, said:

I have been telling it for a long time already. Everybody knows, and you admit it, that IS Lights, like Firestarter, Spider and Raven - are OP. Everybody knows, that they have bugged hitreg. So, if hitreg - is a big problem and can't be fixed fast enough, then may be PGI should temporary nerf this most offending 'Mechs right here and right now? Why not? TBR-A was "OP" for how long? Just for few days? And then was nerfed and IS Lights are bugged, cheating, OP and exploiting for 3 years already and still not nerfed? Is it fair?

What?

First off the Raven isn't OP in hit reg or hit boxes. Those things, even at 150KPH, are easy to hit. If you can't hit them, you need more practice.

The spider is tiny and hard to hit. But its legit.

The FS9 is bigger than the spider and takes stupid amounts of damage to put down. There's a problem with that mech.

Second, TBR and SCR have been OP since the clans were released. Where have you been? We have the quirk system because clan players were tolling the hell out of IS players in those two mechs. Even after the quirkining they still were top performers. Personally I thought they were fairly close to being right, with the SCR needing fixes to its hit boxes, that thing is a pain to hit center mass, its f'd up like the FS9. But beyond that, those mechs needed to be reigned in a little bit.

The problem is this is PGI's first nerfting of clan tech and they, like most people and organizations, don't get it right the first time. They'll probably sit back a bit, see the reaction form the community and their internal game logs and then tweak things as they see fit.

I think this quirk pass is too harsh, but I understand they're still figuring out the omnipods, they're doing the best they can with the flawed source material and their own self-imposed insistence on making IS and Clan tech balance weapon-for-weapon.

I'm surprised the STK-4N didn't get hit harder, I'll have to play it and see if there's any change. On paper I doubt my stats with that mech will change much. And I think that thing is the height of OP cheese -- I hate it. I bring it in CW because the drop leader asks for it, otherwise I'd never touch the thing.

[Spleenslitta]

I use both IS and Clan lights. Yes Clan lights have problems. Kit Fox and Adder are slow compared to IS lights.
Adder is stuck with a Flamer which is kinda useless.

But are Clan light mechs useless? My Kit Foxes perform nearly as well as my Firestarters.
They did that before the FS got nerfed to top it off. Don't believe me? Too bad.
I've said my piece and i spoke the truth. I can't do more than that.

[C E Dwyer]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 May 2015 - 08:06 AM, said:

That is because people like me think it is a stupid ass terribad idea. I'm pretty sure the majority of the player base feels the same way.

Why would we Nerf customization in a MechWarrior game? Remember MW2? You could put anything anywhere. We have more restrictions now, but let's not take customization away entirely, it only hurts the game and kills variety. Not to mention makes omnimechs way more powerful than battle mechs.

Seriously, sized hardpoints is bad, and the only people who want it are people who don't want to play the game at a high level and just want to play suboptimal builds. If that is what you want to do fine, but don't enforce how you want to play the game on the rest if us.

Curious to know how it kills variety as the game is full of the same builds with very few people playing something different, as to suboptimal builds, they are only suboptimal, because the cheese builds make them so, less cheese they become optimal builds

[Yokaiko]

Cathy, on 20 May 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Curious to know how it kills variety as the game is full of the same builds with very few people playing something different, as to suboptimal builds, they are only suboptimal, because the cheese builds make them so, less cheese they become optimal builds

No they are optimal for a reason, almost across the board. Call it cheese if you will.

[Gas Guzzler]

Cathy, on 20 May 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Curious to know how it kills variety as the game is full of the same builds with very few people playing something different, as to suboptimal builds, they are only suboptimal, because the cheese builds make them so, less cheese they become optimal builds

No, they are suboptimal because the weapons don't work well together. I don't run meta mechs all the time, but the loadout always makes sense. I don't run 1 ER LL, an LRM 10, an SRM 4, 2 Machine Guns, and 2 Medium lasers because those weapons don't work well together. Not 100% sure what exactly cheese builds are now.

It kills variety because it makes it so the only mechs that are viable are mechs that can carry weapons that work together. Basically only the mechs that can make the viable builds with the correct hardpoint "sizes".

Oh, except for omni-mechs which can find omni-pods with large weapons on them pretty easily in most cases.

[Kenyon Burguess]

the level of speed needed to accomplish what lights do is just fine in the kitfox. its the only clan mech I own and I have jumpjets, ecm, and a 24pt alpha on my prime

Spleenslitta, on 20 May 2015 - 08:45 AM, said:

I use both IS and Clan lights. Yes Clan lights have problems. Kit Fox and Adder are slow compared to IS lights. Adder is stuck with a Flamer which is kinda useless. But are Clan light mechs useless? My Kit Foxes perform nearly as well as my Firestarters. They did that before the FS got nerfed to top it off. Don't believe me? Too bad. I've said my piece and i spoke the truth. I can't do more than that.

Edited by Geist Null, 20 May 2015 - 09:08 AM.

[Kh0rn]

Well then its going too be a constant case of nerf this and that no wait lets buff this now oh dam this is so op. If they used the system that said alright you have a med laser in that arm you can fit small energy there but wait you have a large AC tube so you can fit a large scale Auto cannon. It would allow customization but generally keep the role of that variant of that chassis right now only a handful of mechs are really being played at higher levels. Cause we can just swap at will mount it with out any problem and make other mechs obsolete. And if it means only some mechs will be viable cause of the weapons system that is all too do with how PGI build the combat system where it hurts varied load outs but supports boat builds.

Edited by Kh0rn, 20 May 2015 - 09:10 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Kh0rn, on 20 May 2015 - 09:09 AM, said:

Well then its going too be a constant case of nerf this and that no wait lets buff this now oh dam this is so op. If they used the system that said alright you have a med laser in that arm you can fit small energy there but wait you have a large AC tube so you can fit a large scale Auto cannon. It would allow customization but generally keep the role of that variant of that chassis right now only a handful of mechs are really being played at higher levels. Cause we can just swap at will mount it with out any problem and make other mechs obsolete. And if it means only some mechs will be viable cause of the weapons system that is all too do with how PGI build the combat system where it hurts varied load outs but supports boat builds.

I feel like the only situation where varied loadouts would work is if you were forced to go through a sniping phase followed by an in your face brawling phase. Then folks would have to take gauss rifles and long range lasers and then SRMs and short range lasers.

The problem with sized hardpoints is, if you look a all around optimal loadout type, it is as many gauss rifles and lasers you can fit on a mech. Implement sized hardpoints, find the mechs that can do that, and that is all you get.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Cathy, on 20 May 2015 - 08:51 AM, said:

Curious to know how it kills variety as the game is full of the same builds with very few people playing something different, as to suboptimal builds, they are only suboptimal, because the cheese builds make them so, less cheese they become optimal builds

The META is full of the same builds and uses only a few chassis's at that. That's not the game, that's meta, and that won't change regardless of what is done.

MW4 with it's stupid hardpoints that did NOTHING to change meta play was a horrible idea, and it was simply MS's attempt at 'balance' for the multiplayer side of the game, the FIRST time anyone had ever tried to balance any of the BTech or MW based games, and it failed. Meta in MW4 was just as strong as it is in MWO, with less variation in chassis's used because the game worked so much differently in online play. BTech is full of boating Mechs, hardpoints don't change that at all, even sized hardpoints don't change it at all, MW4 proved that without any doubt.

PGI could remove ALL ability to customize our Mechs and leave us with ONLY pure TRO stock builds, NOTHING ELSE, including for the OmniMechs and guess what would happen? We'd have a meta within 2 hours of them doing this, and it would include the top chassis for each class that boats and that's it. Funny how it works out that way, but players being human beings and all, they will find the top performing Mechs regardless of how they are designed and they will use them and only them for competition play.

Failure to recognize this is the major problem so many who scream that allowing customization or not having sized hardpoints have. The players WILL find the most optimal builds and that's what they'll use and there will be LESS variety in the Mechs and builds used then we see in MWO. MW4 showed us this already, shame on you for failing to remember history and trying to repeat it again.

[Joseph Mallan]

MrMadguy, on 20 May 2015 - 06:37 AM, said:

Ok, TBRs and SCRs were considered OP and nerfed. But they aren't the only 'Mechs, that are OP and therefore nerfing them and not nerfing the other unbalanced and OP 'Mechs - is kind of hypocritical. So, I'll be ok with TBR and SCR nerf only if other OP 'Mechs will be nerfed too. Right here and right now.

I'll give you an example. We all know, that almost all IS Lights are OP in comparison with Clan ones. So, PGI stated, that Clan can't have it's own unique features, like strong TBRs and SCRs. Then why IS should have it's own unique features, like strong Light 'Mechs?

Ok. We all know, that IS Light are OP. Right? Then, I think, in order to keep the balance fair and not hypocritical, every IS Light should get -20% movement speed and/or -20% armor negative quirks.

I sure don't know that they are OP. They definitely do not feel OP when I use them. If they were OP I'd have good numbers in them. I don't.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 20 May 2015 - 09:21 AM.

[Kh0rn]

Gas Guzzler, on 20 May 2015 - 09:14 AM, said:

I feel like the only situation where varied loadouts would work is if you were forced to go through a sniping phase followed by an in your face brawling phase. Then folks would have to take gauss rifles and long range lasers and then SRMs and short range lasers.

The problem with sized hardpoints is, if you look a all around optimal loadout type, it is as many gauss rifles and lasers you can fit on a mech. Implement sized hardpoints, find the mechs that can do that, and that is all you get.

No no no not sized hard points Its more dynamic then that. Take the AS7-D and the AS7-RS

The D variant mounts 4 med lasers so due too the capacitor mounted in the arm rigged too fire smaller energy weapons. SL, SPL, ML , MPL can be fitted too that area. And either you can't mount higher end energy weapons or you can but with draw backs. But it has a large scale AC cannon meaning it can hold larg AC in it, It also has a SRM slot with a large size and a Large LRM size. The AS7-K can mount ERLL cause it now has the improved systems too do it. But since it mounts a gauss which has less slots then a AC 20 it can not be rigged with a AC 20 it also can not be rigged with any SRMS cause it only have a LRM tube. Thus enforcing the long range role of the K model and the more brawler style too the D. So you can still change out weapons but it would be focused on how the variant was build and its intended purpose. But this would not work with clans due too omni tech. So something needs too be looked into there. This system did work with a game called Multiplayer battle tech 3025 online but as you can see it was just IS where it worked well. but ultimately its how PGI has done the combat system and how the weapon work in the game. it rewards boating and hurts varied load outs.

Edited by Kh0rn, 20 May 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kh0rn, on 20 May 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

No no no not sized hard points Its more dynamic then that. Take the AS7-D and the AS7-RS

The D variant mounts 4 med lasers so due too the capacitor mounted in the arm rigged too fire smaller energy weapons. SL, SPL, ML , MPL can be fitted too that area. And either you can't mount higher end energy weapons or you can but with draw backs. But it has a large scale AC cannon meaning it can hold larg AC in it, It also has a SRM slot with a large size and a Large LRM size. The AS7-K can mount ERLL cause it now has the improved systems too do it. But since it mounts a gauss which has less slots then a AC 20 it can not be rigged with a AC 20 it also can not be rigged with any SRMS cause it only have a LRM tube. Thus enforcing the long range role of the K model and the more brawler style too the D. So you can still change out weapons but it would be focused on how the variant was build and its intended purpose. But this would not work with clans due too omni tech. So something needs too be looked into there. This system did work with a game called Multiplayer battle tech 3025 online but as you can see it was just IS where it worked well. but ultimately its how PGI has done the combat system and how the weapon work in the game. it rewards boating and hurts varied load outs.

You couldn't customize anything in MPBT 3025, so what exactly are you talking about? Stock loadouts rewards boating, customization using sized hardpoints rewards boating, customization using unsized hardpoints rewards boating and totally free customization rewards boating. BTech rewards boating no matter how you go about it, so what exactly do you think the PLAYERS will use as the optimal Mechs regardless of customization rules? MW2 and 3 showed this, MW4 showed this, even the old GEnie MPBT 3025, the MPBT 3025 Solaris and EA's MPBT 3025 all showed this. GIVEN a choice of what you can use, boats are the optimal choice every time hands down. Sorry man, but failure to remember history just dooms you to repeating it and you folks with the 'limit customization, it ruins the game' keep forgetting exactly how no or limited customization does NOTHING to change the boating that you are trying so desperately to stop, despite the BattleTech game this is based on doing it from the start.

Edited by Kristov Kerensky, 20 May 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Kh0rn]

Well if we are gonna be boating with either way it goes perhaps I would prefer the MPBT of no customize just add loads of variants. Hence why I switched too MWLL no mechlab and probably for good reason. And yet its still a fun game. I guess there is no other way too fix it then but that one and only harsh method.

[Rhent]

Thank you OP, that needed to be written. Here is your reward:

[MrMadguy]

Let's be honest: TBR and SCR were nerfed because players wanted to play this 'Mechs only and refused to play any others. So look around. Do you see somebody playing Commando? Jenner? Locust? I personally see only Firestarters, Spiders and Ravens (tons of Ravens recently - 2 Ravens per team). How can they be balanced in this case? And here is the question: why all of the sudden PGI started to care about balance so much in case of TBRs and SCRs, but don't really care about it in all other cases? If PGI is going to balance this game, then this balance should be fair! Why those ones, who have paid for OP Huggins, Embers and Anansies are enjoying their acquisitions and I got my paid acquisition nerfed in just a few days? Nerfed best Clan 'Mechs - nerf best IS 'Mechs then!

[Mystere]

Juodas Varnas, on 20 May 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

How about you wait till the Arctic Cheater comes out and then we can talk about "IS light being op", mmkay?

Biased post is biased.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Kh0rn, on 20 May 2015 - 09:45 AM, said:

Well if we are gonna be boating with either way it goes perhaps I would prefer the MPBT of no customize just add loads of variants. Hence why I switched too MWLL no mechlab and probably for good reason. And yet its still a fun game. I guess there is no other way too fix it then but that one and only harsh method.

What fix, stock only but that doesn't stop boating or the usage of boats, since we already have many stock variants in MWO that are pure boats, IS and Clan.

Boats are IN the original BattleTech game, they aren't a video game thing or a player created thing, they've always existed in the stock loadouts, from the Catapult to the Nova, they've always been around, they are canon.

MrMadguy, maybe you've MISSED how all the previous top OP Mechs in this game have been brought either down to average level or pretty much made totally worthless?

It never occurred to you that the 1 truism in online gaming wouldn't apply to MWO as well, despite it being done multiple times over the past 3+ yrs now? If something seems too good and is obviously OP, it WILL be nerfed. This isn't NEW, it's been happening in MWO since Closed Beta, just as it's been happening in computer gaming since we started playing games online.

What is it with MWO getting all these totally NEW to the internet people playing it?

[Mystere]

MerryIguana, on 20 May 2015 - 07:44 AM, said:

Lights get oneshotted all the time. All mechs should one shot all other mechs! Fair and balanced. Right?

Based on the logic being used by a whole of of players on the forums, yes!