110 replies to this topic

[Reptilizer]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

What time does the polls close? That isn't a large margin.

In 4 hours as far as i know.
But the majority of the ones with a vote have already voted.
Looking at the numbers from the event (and where you landed in ranked if you only had one match with a mech) thats about the total number of phoenix-owners who participated.
So not much potential for change anymore.

[Nightmare1]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 04:53 AM, said:

What time does the polls close? That isn't a large margin.

It's a difference of 200 votes and climbing. There are no trends indicating a reversal. I highly doubt that the "Yes" crowd will be able to win at this point.

On top of that, the total gap is 10 percent (five percent in each direction from 50). That's better than some Gallup Polls and Presidential Elections.

By all means, stay hopeful, but also be prepared for disappointment. It seems there are more people here concerned with holding PGI to task with regard to their commitments than there are willing to throw everyone under the bus in exchange for nothing.

[Zeusus]

Honestly I got the impression that 'yes' winning didn't mean anything unless it was a clear thing. I feel PGI won't move on less than 60% minimum in the yes camp. At least that's how I read Russ' earlier tweets. And it won't swing 15% in 4 hours.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2015 - 04:59 AM, said:

It's a difference of 200 votes and climbing. There are no trends indicating a reversal. I highly doubt that the "Yes" crowd will be able to win at this point.

On top of that, the total gap is 10 percent (five percent in each direction from 50). That's better than some Gallup Polls and Presidential Elections.

By all means, stay hopeful, but also be prepared for disappointment. It seems there are more people here concerned with holding PGI to task with regard to their commitments than there are willing to throw everyone under the bus in exchange for nothing.

Ever been on E-Bay?

I am neither hopeful or disappointed. I have the Battlemaster I want. PGI can release the entire Phoenix Pack and I will not buy it. And it will be for the same reason I didn't buy it in the first place. Except for the Battlemaster I'm not wowed by Phoenix.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 May 2015 - 05:11 AM.

[Nightmare1]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 05:09 AM, said:

Ever been on E-Bay?

Yep, but this ain't E-Bay!

#StayHopeful

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Yes. I was one of the No Crowd back in the day. Some Founders were against re releasing the founders pack. I was one of them. I was being selfish and egotistic. It was about ME, and how PGI was betraying ME by letting others have what I got!


So yes, Saying No is about Your ego.

For you, perhaps.

For others, there's all kinds of different motivations. For me, it's about sticking to one's word.

I wouldn't mind one bit if PGI made Phoenix II, updated and upgraded with the new variants, with new custom geometry, and new bonus content. But since they said the (P) variants of the existing Phoenix pack were never to be sold again, I'd very much want them to stick to that word.

To be honest, I don't care if anyone else has something I've got - in this case, the (P) variant Phoenix 'mechs. I don't throw a fit when I see a (P) on the battlefield. Same with the (F) 'mechs.

But the double standards when it comes to (F) and (P) 'mechs are rather interesting; even the most ardent of the yes crowd seems to think the (F) 'mechs should stay inaccessible, when the (P) 'mechs have a much stronger claim to that inaccessibility than the (F) 'mechs. PGI never said they'd never re-issue the (F) 'mechs, but they did say that about the (P) 'mechs.

So for me it's not about ego, it's about PGI saying "can we break our word"? And me answering "no, I prefer you'd stick to your word".

No matter how many times you and other posters directly or indirectly call me "selfish" or "egotistic", I am neither. And my vote wasn't cast for any of the reasons you seem to think it was.

Edited by stjobe, 22 May 2015 - 05:28 AM.

[Wildstreak]

The problem with the poll is it never clarified how PP would be released. I read every Phoenix topic since this event, a number of No voters said they would vote Yes if it was offered a new way without some of the exclusive stuff, P variants replaced by R, no medallions, no free Hot Rod camo, etc. The PGI poll never specified so did not get proper feedback.

[Nightmare1]

stjobe, on 22 May 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

For you, perhaps.

For others, there's all kinds of different motivations. For me, it's about sticking to one's word.

I wouldn't mind one bit if PGI made Phoenix II, updated and upgraded with the new variants, with new custom geometry, and new bonus content. But since they said the (P) variants of the existing Phoenix pack were never to be sold again, I'd very much want them to stick to that word.

To be honest, I don't care if anyone else has something I've got - in this case, the (P) variant Phoenix 'mechs. I don't throw a fit when I see a (P) on the battlefield. Same with the (F) 'mechs.

But the double standards when it comes to (F) and (P) 'mechs are rather interesting; even the most ardent of the yes crowd seems to think the (F) 'mechs should stay inaccessible, when the (P) 'mechs have a much stronger claim to that inaccessibility than the (F) 'mechs. PGI never said they'd never re-issue the (F) 'mechs, but they did say that about the (P) 'mechs.

So for me it's not about ego, it's about PGI saying "can we break our word"? And me answering "no, I prefer you'd stick to your word".

No matter how many times you and other posters directly or indirectly call me "selfish" or "egotistic", I am neither. And my vote wasn't cast for any of the reasons you seem to think it was.

Wildstreak, on 22 May 2015 - 05:32 AM, said:

The problem with the poll is it never clarified how PP would be released. I read every Phoenix topic since this event, a number of No voters said they would vote Yes if it was offered a new way without some of the exclusive stuff, P variants replaced by R, no medallions, no free Hot Rod camo, etc. The PGI poll never specified so did not get proper feedback.

Good points, both of you.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 22 May 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

For you, perhaps.

For others, there's all kinds of different motivations. For me, it's about sticking to one's word.

I wouldn't mind one bit if PGI made Phoenix II, updated and upgraded with the new variants, with new custom geometry, and new bonus content. But since they said the (P) variants of the existing Phoenix pack were never to be sold again, I'd very much want them to stick to that word.

To be honest, I don't care if anyone else has something I've got - in this case, the (P) variant Phoenix 'mechs. I don't throw a fit when I see a (P) on the battlefield. Same with the (F) 'mechs.

But the double standards when it comes to (F) and (P) 'mechs are rather interesting; even the most ardent of the yes crowd seems to think the (F) 'mechs should stay inaccessible, when the (P) 'mechs have a much stronger claim to that inaccessibility than the (F) 'mechs. PGI never said they'd never re-issue the (F) 'mechs, but they did say that about the (P) 'mechs.

So for me it's not about ego, it's about PGI saying "can we break our word"? And me answering "no, I prefer you'd stick to your word".

No matter how many times you and other posters directly or indirectly call me "selfish" or "egotistic", I am neither. And my vote wasn't cast for any of the reasons you seem to think it was.

When there is a ToS that says "We can and will change things when we think we need to." They have a right to change their minds. I gave them MY word it was Ok to do so. I cannot hold them to a standard I myself do not uphold.

So How do we rationalize not letting PGI change their mind if we are? And yes, I used to be one of those Ardent Founders.

We all agreed PGI can change what they want when they want. It precedes any other claim that is being made.

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2015 - 05:35 AM, said:

Good points, both of you.

Those guys almost always make great posts.

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2015 - 05:17 AM, said:

Yep, but this ain't E-Bay!

#StayHopeful

More like #sitbackandwatch

[stjobe]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 05:49 AM, said:

When there is a ToS that says "We can and will change things when we think we need to." They have a right to change their minds. I gave them MY word it was Ok to do so. I cannot hold them to a standard I myself do not uphold.

So How do we rationalize not letting PGI change their mind if we are? And yes, I used to be one of those Ardent Founders.

We all agreed PGI can change what they want when they want. It precedes any other claim that is being made.

That boilerplate is in just about any ToS for just about anything digital - if it wasn't, they couldn't ever change anything without opening themselves up to litigation; no weapon balancing, no quirk adjustments, not even bug fixes.

And while it does give them the right to change anything for any reason, it would be a PR suicide of epic proportions to do so randomly. No company I know of makes changes and points to the ToS to justify it; they give lots and lots of other reasons, but saying "because we can" is a sure-fire way of alienating your customers.

If they'd just re-opened the Phoenix pack, the current little kerfluffle would have paled to insignificance by the immolation that would have consumed the forums.

As it is, they asked us instead if they could. Some said yes, some said no, for various reasons. Some that said yes are being rather abrasive about the ones that said no. One or two that said no are likewise being rather abrasive about those who said yes.

In the end, it was a question fair asked and fair answered.

What do you all say we leave it at that?

Edited by stjobe, 22 May 2015 - 06:13 AM.

[1453 R]

Zeusus, on 22 May 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

...I mean I LOVE that you got mad at that kickstarter for exclusives and then defend founders who were also early backers, the very thing you railed against. I actually thought you must be a founder but see no tag. Wow.

Just to clarify, because in hindsight that is confusing:

What I'm most strongly against is exclusive content nobody else gets (i.e. the "Shrike Information Warfare ship", in said KS). Best example would be the notion that the Phoenix chassis were not ever made available for MC/C-bills. That would've been disgusting and hideous, but thankfully Piranha did not do that.

I do believe that players who put up cash against the Great Unknown and risk eating a 100% loss if a game folds (so not actually Kickstarter, where you don't risk jack unless the company makes its goals) deserve especial recognition for taking that risk so the rest of us could have a game, which is why the Founders get a pass from me. They actually did something which cannot be repeated by other players - provided the seed money for the game to pick itself up and get going. Nobody else can do that, and so those players get a nod as having started the game.

If they'd gotten unique chassis no one else could ever run (i.e. the Atlas/Jenner/Catapult/Hunchback were never made available to the regular player base), then yes, I would've had a very strong issue with the Founder program. They started the game and they earn recognition and appreciation for that, but only if other people get to play, too.

Anyways. Unlike Founders (but only partially unlike Kickstarter backers, who again don't really run any risks when trying to seed a game), Phoenix buyers did not do a single thing other players could not easily repeat were the package to open again. We typed a credit card number into an online form and agreed to give Piranha more money than they probably deserved at that point. We were the first batch of boneheads to do that, but hardly the last. There was nothing inherently unique or particularly recognizable in the act of snagging a Phoenix pack, save as a weak "Were you here in 2013? [Y/N]" check. The whole notion of Phoenix holders as "Wave II Founders" is utterly ludicrous and honestly kinda insulting.

It's just a 'Mech pack. There's thirty-seven more in the store that nobody seems to care aren't shut down yet. Why go insane over this one?

Edited by 1453 R, 22 May 2015 - 06:19 AM.

[Alan Davion]

stjobe, on 22 May 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

In the end, it was a question fair asked and fair answered.

What do you all say we leave it at that?

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe it was fairly answered. I've seen several people in these threads say that they voted "No" purely because of the supposed nerfs that were applied to the TBR and SCR.

To me that is arrogant and spiteful, and should be taken as a tainted result of the poll. To say nothing of the people so zeaously guarding their Phoenix mechs going all "You weren't there? Haha. To bad. So sad." That is even more arrogant and spiteful.

But again, this is just my point of view.

[1453 R]

Ehh...at this point the issue is too poisoned to really discuss properly, Alan. At least partially my fault, though I tried to remain calm throughout.

I'll admit to letting my own bitterness get the better of me a couple times here. I very much wanted to be the Swell Generous Guy who let Piranha out of what even the majority of 'NO' votes seem to think was a mistake, but the collective desire towards that sort of generosity on the forums is not as strong as the collective desire to hold Piranha to their word.

Like Jobe said - they asked, Phoenix answered. This was their second stab at the question, and this one with all the formalities and bells&whistles attached. It's been shot down twice, once off the cuff and once in the full-up democratic arena. At this point they really can't ask again; if they did it'd go from asking to pestering and they'd start losing 'YES' votes quickly, my own among them.

It's time to just sigh and leave it at that.

[stjobe]

Alan Davion, on 22 May 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe it was fairly answered. I've seen several people in these threads say that they voted "No" purely because of the supposed nerfs that were applied to the TBR and SCR.

Every Phoenix owner got one vote, that's fair.

What their motivations for casting their vote yes or no were doesn't enter into the fairness of it.

[Joseph Mallan]

stjobe, on 22 May 2015 - 06:12 AM, said:

That boilerplate is in just about any ToS for just about anything digital - if it wasn't, they couldn't ever change anything without opening themselves up to litigation; no weapon balancing, no quirk adjustments, not even bug fixes.

And while it does give them the right to change anything for any reason, it would be a PR suicide of epic proportions to do so randomly. No company I know of makes changes and points to the ToS to justify it; they give lots and lots of other reasons, but saying "because we can" is a sure-fire way of alienating your customers.

If they'd just re-opened the Phoenix pack, the current little kerfluffle would have paled to insignificance by the immolation that would have consumed the forums.

As it is, they asked us instead if they could. Some said yes, some said no, for various reasons. Some that said yes are being rather abrasive about the ones that said no. One or two that said no are likewise being rather abrasive about those who said yes.

In the end, it was a question fair asked and fair answered.

What do you all say we leave it at that?

Indeed. Fair asked Fair answered.

Alan Davion, on 22 May 2015 - 06:21 AM, said:

This is just my opinion, but I don't believe it was fairly answered. I've seen several people in these threads say that they voted "No" purely because of the supposed nerfs that were applied to the TBR and SCR.

To me that is arrogant and spiteful, and should be taken as a tainted result of the poll. To say nothing of the people so zeaously guarding their Phoenix mechs going all "You weren't there? Haha. To bad. So sad." That is even more arrogant and spiteful.

But again, this is just my point of view.

The reason they voted what they did is Spiteful. But it is their vote to be spiteful with. But Spite begets Spite, and that is a road not worth traveling.

[Malleus011]

I voted No.

But I've been agitating all week for PGI to make the following:



Change the Hero variant. Change the extra bits and bobs to look more like Resistance. Issue Phoenix II, and let the people who want these 'mechs buy these mechs, while still keeping their word on the previous package. (Wouldn't you like a C-Bill bonus Battlemaster 2C(P) or 1D(P)? How about a WVR-7K(P)?)

Heck, make an option for the old Phoenix owners to purchase only the hero 'mechs from the new pack. Get more of their money plus new money at the same time.

[WarHippy]

Reptilizer, on 22 May 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

You realize that the "no" faction is the one being beaten with the morals-bat and generally insulted as egoistic, prideful and vain baddies.
Did see no personal insults for the "yes" crowd yet.
Toxic? Yes! But the other way round.
Do not twist facts.

Edit: Found one example of a personal insult to "yes" voters in this thread. Does not change the general picture though.

Really? Only the "no" people are being beaten with the moral bat? I had a guy in one of the numerous threads on this topic actually say that part of the reason the world is getting to be a worse place to live is because of the mentality of people voting "yes" wanting everyone to have a trophy and happy to let others break their word(total load of crap, but hey whatever). Seriously how many times are the "no" voters going to take the moral bat and beat PGI over the head for being "liars"? People on both sides are being ridiculous and inflammatory in their wording. Don't try and pretend it is only one side and not the other, or at the very least take the blinders off and see all of the nonsense on both sides for what it is.

[Jae Hyun Nakamura]

Hmm...

But if PGI reintroduces the PP, they will lose 1203 customers in a blink. I don't want to say they will lose players, F2P you know?, but customers. I'm out as a customer for many reasons you can find in the forums, but i still play.

Anytime a new limited mechpack will come out everyone will go "meh, i'll get it in one or two years if ever". And i think income is dropping from month to month for PGI. (No fact just suspect) The community gave them a chance, hell we gave them many...a lot...and a lot more and more. They don't deserve a 200th chance.

Maybe things will change and i will pay again, but maybe (and hopefully) someone else gets my money for a BT franchise.

Peace

[WarHippy]

1453 R, on 21 May 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

You guys honestly don't see it? The forums are currently erupting in complete and utter apeshit insanity with 1200 votes and a hefty density of vocal players all demanding as loudly and violently as they can that Piranha never sell anything Phoenix ever again. That if they see anything with a [P] in its tag that hasn't been around for a few years now, they'll consider Piranha to've gone straight back to the dark days of 2013, where the company had such a miserable reputation that third-party news sites were writing articles on "the open rebellion of the MWO player base."

How can Piranha possibly justify any sort of Phoenix Redux or Phoenix II or Phoenix anything, when you've all made it as resoundingly, torturously clear as you possibly can that any sale of any thing with a [P] tag on the end of it will be taken as a deep and unforgivable betrayal?

Blegh...I'm rambling. Sorry, guys. I suppose it just burns me up that we had a chance to do something really great for the playerbase, get rid of the mistake that was the Phoenix exclusivity, and not only did we blow it, but we (and in this case, by 'we' I do in fact totally mean you) threw it back in Piranha's face so violently and hatefully they couldn't offer any new Phoenix packs again even if they dug up some brand new Phoenix 'Mechs to sell. It's lame and I'm going to feel pretty low about it for a while.

I'm firmly in the "yes" camp, but this makes no sense. People are voting "no" because they want the exclusivity they were sold in the original pack etc.. What in the world does this vote have to do with a potential future Phoenix pack containing different mechs? This line of reasoning(if you can call it that) you have going takes some serious mental gymnastics to even remotely come close to this being an end result of this vote.

[Joseph Mallan]

Reptilizer, on 22 May 2015 - 04:50 AM, said:

Or about trying to change the conditions of a deal.
Or about a lackluster business move for making money without new content/content redesign.
Or about PGI bein not worthy of the franchise in general.
Or, or, or...
Lots of possible reasons connected to trust, integrity, anger, disappoinment, fear, or even pure malice.

Nice to know that it was your ego for you back in the days.
Making generalistic assumptions regarding people you do not know is still somewhat one-dimensional in my opinion.

Using this for propaganda is fine with me, if somewhat vulgar. Actually believing in a black/white world where everything is reducable to a single attribute that i clearly see and determine would make me doubt my sanity though.

Well what else could it be but ego? I can only judge by what I see, hear and believe. So if sounds egotistical to me thats what Im gonna call it. Even if I am the target.

The Conditions of the deal was set when you signed into the game the first time.

"We have the right to change what we feels needs changed." That is the conditions you are playing under. And unless you are playing a game for 10+ years ago. Games can be "updated" at any time. Cause you have to be connected to play most games any more.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 May 2015 - 08:47 AM.