110 replies to this topic

[Xenon Codex]

Alan Davion, on 21 May 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

If the Phoenix owners played with their oh-so-shiny and precious toys more, maybe things would be different.

I just checked my stats. Out of the 82 mechs I own and over 2800 matches played, the Battlemaster 1G(P) and Griffin 1N(P) are my two most played mechs. In fact, in my top 15 most played, 10 of them are from the Phoenix or Sabre packs. They are good mechs that I enjoy playing.

Alan Davion, on 21 May 2015 - 03:28 PM, said:

Except the terms of the sale weren't set by PGI, or did you forget that little fact?

But PGI sanctioned the sale and is ultimately responsible for IGP's decisions, so that's not really relevant.

I do agree with you in principle though and want these packs to be available to everyone. However, I think a compromise is the best order of business. PGI should invest some time into making enough changes to be considered a different sale-able item.

[Roadkill]

Xenon Codex, on 21 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

PGI should invest some time into making enough changes to be considered a different sale-able item.

See, that's the real problem here. PGI wants to be able to sell those packs without having to do any work. Otherwise they'd have just done a series of Phoenix II packs and been done with it.

They make noises about people constantly asking them about selling the packs again, but the real reason is to have them available for Steam. Existing players who desperately want those Mechs can already buy them (without the custom camo/geometry) for c-bills or MC. This really isn't about existing players. It's about Steam.

[N0MAD]

When i hear an IGP management lvl Employee or Owner (ya i know they went broke) say that indeed it was them that FORCED PGI to do all the things that IGP is been blamed for, i may even believe it, till then i will keep believing that IGP is being used as a scapegoat, cause you know all im getting is one side of the story, and thats been told to me by the people with something to gain by blaming the absent party

[Alan Davion]

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 08:45 PM, said:

Obvious troll is obvious.

1/10 troll attempt.

Fail troll is fail.

Escef, on 21 May 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

I highly doubt this.

Russ mentioned in one of the recent Town Halls that he did get in contact with Harmony Gold about the possibility of working out a deal that would get the Macross Unseen into the game. They had not gotten back to him, and I doubt they have at this point either. HG's attitude problem in regards to these things is rather infamous in the Battletech community.

You doubt what? The fact that people have been asking for Phoenix mechs, original or new for going on what, 2, maybe 3 years now? That seems to me to be a pretty good indication that if a "Wave 2" were brought out, people would yet again be asking for the Wave 1 mechs. Hence the downward spiral.

And yes, I listened to the recent town hall meeting where this was brought up, and what PGIs options are regarding the remaining unseen, and I have in fact posted more than a few times about it in these Phoenix threads... And god I am PAINFULLY aware of the devil incarnate that is Harmony Gold and the crap they pulled.

[Kyynele]

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 09:04 PM, said:

See, that's the real problem here. PGI wants to be able to sell those packs without having to do any work. Otherwise they'd have just done a series of Phoenix II packs and been done with it.

Here, I have to refuse to believe that it would be a lot of work to have the Phoenix geometry added to any other variant of the same chassis. Just makes no sense. The only things that they couldn't use directly are the nice drawings of the phoenix mechs with the special geometry, but they could just take renders of the new phoenix variants in nice poses. Shouldn't be more than a half days work for some intern.

[Alan Davion]

Xenon Codex, on 21 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

I just checked my stats. Out of the 82 mechs I own and over 2800 matches played, the Battlemaster 1G(P) and Griffin 1N(P) are my two most played mechs. In fact, in my top 15 most played, 10 of them are from the Phoenix or Sabre packs. They are good mechs that I enjoy playing.

But PGI sanctioned the sale and is ultimately responsible for IGP's decisions, so that's not really relevant.

I do agree with you in principle though and want these packs to be available to everyone. However, I think a compromise is the best order of business. PGI should invest some time into making enough changes to be considered a different sale-able item.

Okay, you are actually the first person I've seen that has given stats on their (P) variants. Most other people I've seen in these rage threads have given no stats, or have actually stated that they haven't used their mech recently aside from this past event.

As for the second part of your statement, I've been trying to say more than once that PGI is in all likelihood trying to fix the mistake that IGP made with the whole "Never to be sold again" BS, but now I've apparently been declared a troll for trying to bring this to light.

[Escef]

Alan Davion, on 21 May 2015 - 09:14 PM, said:

Okay, you are actually the first person I've seen that has given stats on their (P) variants.

Less than a week ago I mentioned my BLR-1G(P) having over 700k XP sitting on it, with (at the time) 892 games in it. That's an impressive amount by itself, but even moreso when you keep in mind that I have over 120 mechs in total.

[Wildstreak]

stjobe, on 21 May 2015 - 09:31 AM, said:

There's basically three things that are unique and not available any more in the Phoenix pack:
1. The special geometry of the (P) 'mechs
2. The Loyalty Point medallions
3. The forum and in-game badges.

Since I have a hard time imagining anyone really, really wanting the forum and in-game badges, and the special geometry isn't all that special, I have to conclude that the continuing interest in the Phoenix pack is solely due to some people wanting the LP medallions.

Why don't you pester PGI for those directly?

Given the Clan event happening, they may do one for the IS sometime and then what happens? Even if such an event medallions looked different, would they actually be different? Would they not lower the 'value' of the PP ones?
Spoken by a non-PP owner.

As for PP colors, I noted Resistance colors seem very similar to PC Gamer ones, would not be surprised to find PP colors also similar.

[Xenon Codex]

Escef, on 21 May 2015 - 09:20 PM, said:

Less than a week ago I mentioned my BLR-1G(P) having over 700k XP sitting on it, with (at the time) 892 games in it. That's an impressive amount by itself, but even moreso when you keep in mind that I have over 120 mechs in total.

That is very impressive sir! I only have 320 matches in mine, though still over a 100 more than any other mech I own. I hated the 1G until I got it elited and bought an XL380. Then the wub-wub came out (even before the pulse laser heat reduction) and I just couldn't help myself.

[Alan Davion]

Escef, on 21 May 2015 - 09:16 PM, said:

I posted in full context, and yet you still need to make wild guesses like this? Are you seriously that desperate to advance your point that you willfully take it with as little context as possible? Or are you just stupid? Tell me right now that you are stupid and I will forgive you, I have low expectations for stupid people.

Ok, since you insist upon being dense. You said that if PGI made a Phoenix 2 that included Macross Unseen there would be a massive clamoring from people demanding the original Phoenix pack come back. I said that I doubted this. Or, if that was too complicated for you to understand: I do not believe a Phoenix 2 pack would trigger any sizable demand for a reissue of the original Project Phoenix.

Congratulations. You have just been reported for a personal attack against me, specifically my intelligence.

I just recently graduated from college, so I will not stand to have someone attack and insult me in such a manner.

I've not posted much on these forums until this particular event came around, but that doesn't mean I haven't looked them over from time to time. And I'll be god-damned if I haven't seen at least 1 thread at least every couple months over the last two god-damned years of someone asking for Project Phoenix Mechs.

Original run, new run. I've seen people ask for both. I know they are there, and apparently you do not. So yes, I damn well believe that if PGI did in fact go ahead and make a Phoenix Wave 2 with mechs such as the Rifleman and so on, that people would once again be arguing for the re-release of the Wave 1 Phoenix mechs.

[Roadkill]

Alan Davion, on 21 May 2015 - 09:31 PM, said:

Original run, new run. I've seen people ask for both. I know they are there, and apparently you do not. So yes, I damn well believe that if PGI did in fact go ahead and make a Phoenix Wave 2 with mechs such as the Rifleman and so on, that people would once again be arguing for the re-release of the Wave 1 Phoenix mechs.

People can argue all they want. That's what people do on the internet. But here's PGI's response:

"We already asked the original Phoenix pack owners if we could re-offer them for sale, and they said no. So sorry, but we can't sell the original packs again."

Support ticket closed.

People asking for a re-release of the original Phoenix packs is only a "problem" because PGI allows it to be one. "Sorry, the Phoenix packs were a one-time limited release and are no longer available." That took all of 10 seconds to type. There's no problem here unless you want it to be one.

If they really wanted to they could make Phoenix II packs. But they don't want to because that would require work. They want to be able to make the original Phoenix packs available for the Steam players without having to do any work.

[1453 R]

Zeusus, on 21 May 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

I'm confused. In what way does this poll have anything to do with the Macross mechs? I voted no, but if they wanted Macross mechs (and could somehow get the legal rights to them) I'd be all for that. I mean it has nothing to do with the Phoenix pack this vote is on... The limited stuff stays limited, new stuff is new stuff. Simple as that.

Escef, on 21 May 2015 - 06:58 PM, said:

I recall it being brought up when people whined about not qualifying for the Loyalty reward King Crab, and not wanting to shell out for a clan pack. It's part of why we got the Resistance pack.

Do I think Project Phoenix should be brought back? No. There's no cause for it, I voted against the idea. If the vote went against me I would not have been butthurt over it, and would have looked into upgrading my Phoenix pack with Saber (even though I already have c-bill versions of the Saber mechs). The people that obsess over getting it back in seem to be remarkably butthurt over the whole thing, and to those people I suggest Preparation H (and that you be thankful that you did not test Preparations A through G).

Hellcat420, on 21 May 2015 - 08:13 PM, said:

this has nothing to do with new phoenix packs or mechs. they can make/sell all the new phoenix packs/mechs that they want as long as they don't resell the original phoenix package/mechs.

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 08:49 PM, said:

This vote has nothing to do with those Mechs.

Were any of those Mechs in the Phoenix packs? No? Then how does this vote in any way hinder Mechs that have never been sold before from being sold again?

Stop fearmongering.

Kyynele, on 21 May 2015 - 08:54 PM, said:

OMG what I can't even



You have to be trolling right?

You have somehow turned the vote about should a package advertised as limited be sold again, to actually secretly be a vote about do people want Marauders?

If PGI could sell us Marauders, they would, because people WOULD BUY. No matter what the name of the package is.

Reality check please.

Sorry folks, had some stuff to do for a while. Figured I'd nail all of this at once, since it's all basically the same thing.

You guys honestly don't see it? The forums are currently erupting in complete and utter apeshit insanity with 1200 votes and a hefty density of vocal players all demanding as loudly and violently as they can that Piranha never sell anything Phoenix ever again. That if they see anything with a [P] in its tag that hasn't been around for a few years now, they'll consider Piranha to've gone straight back to the dark days of 2013, where the company had such a miserable reputation that third-party news sites were writing articles on "the open rebellion of the MWO player base."

How can Piranha possibly justify any sort of Phoenix Redux or Phoenix II or Phoenix anything, when you've all made it as resoundingly, torturously clear as you possibly can that any sale of any thing with a [P] tag on the end of it will be taken as a deep and unforgivable betrayal?

Frankly, at this point I'm a little disgusted as well as a lot disappointed, and honestly a bit surprised that some of the more vitriolic/vehement 'NO' voters haven't started trying to get Piranha to rip the Phoenix chassis out of the MC/C-bill stores. I don't know, it must just be me, but I hate exclusive content in games like this with a fierce passion, regardless of which side of it I'm on. I don't care about the timed exclusivity on Wave releases and wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if Piranha didn't do it, and we all know how I feel about Phoenix by now. That Starfighter Inc game the old MW2 devs were Kickstarting lost me as a potential backer when they laid out a number of backer-exclusive ships no one else was ever going to get access to. for me, there is nothing that makes a player feel like a second-class citizen who should really be spending his time elsewhere than seeing some really cool thing he'd love to have and would totally shell out for, only to hear "Nope, sorry. This was a one-time thing we sold way back when to folks who were here long before you found the game and hitched up; I know you've sunk a lot of hours into the game and popped open your wallet to help us out and we appreciate that, but I'm afraid you don't get any cool schitte or any recognition for doing so. That's reserved for folks who put in the hours and helped us out three years ago."

I'm 100% behind the Founders' packages being locked away forever and would not buy one even if Piranha lost their mind and re-opened them, because one cannot retroactively found a game...but believe you me, it blows hard that despite the fact that I've been here for years now and have paid for at least five hundred other players' free game by now, I'm always going to be one of those useless tools who didn't found the game. I would've if I'd had money when it was a thing, but I didn't so I couldn't, and because of that I get to be a second-tier nobody for as long as I play this game.

Now folks are insisting that we continue doing just exactly that to players who weren't around for the Phoenix release. It's inherently cruel, and I very much dislike being cruel to people, especially those who have done nothing to me. Someone who hitched up with this game six months ago and then spent a ton of money collecting packs deserves just as much appreciation for supporting all the rest of you who don't spend a dime as I do. The only group of people who have a right to that exclusive elite club status are Founders, because Founders are the ones who spent money on something they had no guarantee would even exist in another year.

Blegh...I'm rambling. Sorry, guys. I suppose it just burns me up that we had a chance to do something really great for the playerbase, get rid of the mistake that was the Phoenix exclusivity, and not only did we blow it, but we (and in this case, by 'we' I do in fact totally mean you) threw it back in Piranha's face so violently and hatefully they couldn't offer any new Phoenix packs again even if they dug up some brand new Phoenix 'Mechs to sell. It's lame and I'm going to feel pretty low about it for a while.

Edited by 1453 R, 21 May 2015 - 10:58 PM.

[Reptilizer]

1453 R, on 21 May 2015 - 12:51 PM, said:

Unfortunately much of the issue is that the "Vote NO" crowd are being quite venomous to anyone in the "Vote YES" crowd, as the NO guys are the ones who stand to lose something in this deal.

*snip*

You realize that the "no" faction is the one being beaten with the morals-bat and generally insulted as egoistic, prideful and vain baddies.
Did see no personal insults for the "yes" crowd yet.
Toxic? Yes! But the other way round.
Do not twist facts.

Edit: Found one example of a personal insult to "yes" voters in this thread. Does not change the general picture though.

Edited by Reptilizer, 22 May 2015 - 12:32 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

That's just it though, if PGI did go ahead and make a Phoenix Wave 2 which included stuff like the Rifleman, Warhammer and Marauder, people would once again be shouting for the original Phoenix Wave 1 mechs to be sold.

and they can sell the non-phoenix variants of the original wave 1 mechs

Quote

Do you see how this would spiral out of control?

no.

Quote

Unfortunately much of the issue is that the "Vote NO" crowd are being quite venomous to anyone in the "Vote YES" crowd, as the NO guys are the ones who stand to lose something in this deal.

*snip*

quite frankly the venom is deserved. the yes people keep pushing the issue and ignoring the fact that the majority of people voted no.

people voted no, the issue is no longer up for debate, and phoenix packs will not be going on sale again.

the yes people need to deal with it and move on.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2015 - 03:27 AM.

[Zeusus]

1453 R, on 21 May 2015 - 10:48 PM, said:

Sorry folks, had some stuff to do for a while. Figured I'd nail all of this at once, since it's all basically the same thing.

You guys honestly don't see it? The forums are currently erupting in complete and utter apeshit insanity with 1200 votes and a hefty density of vocal players all demanding as loudly and violently as they can that Piranha never sell anything Phoenix ever again. That if they see anything with a [P] in its tag that hasn't been around for a few years now, they'll consider Piranha to've gone straight back to the dark days of 2013, where the company had such a miserable reputation that third-party news sites were writing articles on "the open rebellion of the MWO player base."

How can Piranha possibly justify any sort of Phoenix Redux or Phoenix II or Phoenix anything, when you've all made it as resoundingly, torturously clear as you possibly can that any sale of any thing with a [P] tag on the end of it will be taken as a deep and unforgivable betrayal?

Frankly, at this point I'm a little disgusted as well as a lot disappointed, and honestly a bit surprised that some of the more vitriolic/vehement 'NO' voters haven't started trying to get Piranha to rip the Phoenix chassis out of the MC/C-bill stores. I don't know, it must just be me, but I hate exclusive content in games like this with a fierce passion, regardless of which side of it I'm on. I don't care about the timed exclusivity on Wave releases and wouldn't be bothered in the slightest if Piranha didn't do it, and we all know how I feel about Phoenix by now. That Starfighter Inc game the old MW2 devs were Kickstarting lost me as a potential backer when they laid out a number of backer-exclusive ships no one else was ever going to get access to. for me, there is nothing that makes a player feel like a second-class citizen who should really be spending his time elsewhere than seeing some really cool thing he'd love to have and would totally shell out for, only to hear "Nope, sorry. This was a one-time thing we sold way back when to folks who were here long before you found the game and hitched up; I know you've sunk a lot of hours into the game and popped open your wallet to help us out and we appreciate that, but I'm afraid you don't get any cool schitte or any recognition for doing so. That's reserved for folks who put in the hours and helped us out three years ago."

I'm 100% behind the Founders' packages being locked away forever and would not buy one even if Piranha lost their mind and re-opened them, because one cannot retroactively found a game...but believe you me, it blows hard that despite the fact that I've been here for years now and have paid for at least five hundred other players' free game by now, I'm always going to be one of those useless tools who didn't found the game. I would've if I'd had money when it was a thing, but I didn't so I couldn't, and because of that I get to be a second-tier nobody for as long as I play this game.

Now folks are insisting that we continue doing just exactly that to players who weren't around for the Phoenix release. It's inherently cruel, and I very much dislike being cruel to people, especially those who have done nothing to me. Someone who hitched up with this game six months ago and then spent a ton of money collecting packs deserves just as much appreciation for supporting all the rest of you who don't spend a dime as I do. The only group of people who have a right to that exclusive elite club status are Founders, because Founders are the ones who spent money on something they had no guarantee would even exist in another year.

Blegh...I'm rambling. Sorry, guys. I suppose it just burns me up that we had a chance to do something really great for the playerbase, get rid of the mistake that was the Phoenix exclusivity, and not only did we blow it, but we (and in this case, by 'we' I do in fact totally mean you) threw it back in Piranha's face so violently and hatefully they couldn't offer any new Phoenix packs again even if they dug up some brand new Phoenix 'Mechs to sell. It's lame and I'm going to feel pretty low about it for a while.

You should run for office, seriously. You put the level of spin an average politican says to shame.

Find me 1 person in the no camp who is opposed to a Phoenix 2 with Macross mechs. Hint you won't find one. Show me one who wants to remove the regular variants from game. Hint you won't find one. If you think you will sway some no's to yeses like this you are flat out wrong. Its plainly insulting and naïve.

Please stop being so blatantly insulting to your fellow players while being all high and mighty. This isn't an election.

I mean I LOVE that you got mad at that kickstarter for exclusives and then defend founders who were also early backers, the very thing you railed against. I actually thought you must be a founder but see no tag. Wow.

[Joseph Mallan]

Reptilizer, on 22 May 2015 - 12:29 AM, said:

You realize that the "no" faction is the one being beaten with the morals-bat and generally insulted as egoistic, prideful and vain baddies.
Did see no personal insults for the "yes" crowd yet.
Toxic? Yes! But the other way round.
Do not twist facts.

Edit: Found one example of a personal insult to "yes" voters in this thread. Does not change the general picture though.

Yes. I was one of the No Crowd back in the day. Some Founders were against re releasing the founders pack. I was one of them. I was being selfish and egotistic. It was about ME, and how PGI was betraying ME by letting others have what I got!


So yes, Saying No is about Your ego.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 May 2015 - 03:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Roadkill, on 21 May 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

People can argue all they want. That's what people do on the internet. But here's PGI's response:

"We already asked the original Phoenix pack owners if we could re-offer them for sale, and they said no. So sorry, but we can't sell the original packs again."

So the inmates are going to run the asylum? Thats awesome.

And PGI CAN put the Phoenix on sale. If they are willing to face any backlash that comes. It's their game. Its their choice.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 22 May 2015 - 08:41 AM.

[Reptilizer]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 03:54 AM, said:

Yes. I was one of the No Crowd back in the day. Some Founders were against re releasing the founders pack. I was one of them. I was being selfish and egotistic. It was about ME, and how PGI was betraying ME by letting others have what I got!


So yes, Saying No is about Your ego.

Or about trying to change the conditions of a deal.
Or about a lackluster business move for making money without new content/content redesign.
Or about PGI bein not worthy of the franchise in general.
Or, or, or...
Lots of possible reasons connected to trust, integrity, anger, disappoinment, fear, or even pure malice.

Nice to know that it was your ego for you back in the days.
Making generalistic assumptions regarding people you do not know is still somewhat one-dimensional in my opinion.

Using this for propaganda is fine with me, if somewhat vulgar. Actually believing in a black/white world where everything is reducable to a single attribute that i clearly see and determine would make me doubt my sanity though.

[Nightmare1]

It's all a moot point now; "No" crowd wins with a 55/45 split!

[Joseph Mallan]

Nightmare1, on 22 May 2015 - 04:51 AM, said:

It's all a moot point now; "No" crowd wins with a 55/45 split!

What time does the polls close? That isn't a large margin.