90 replies to this topic

[LordMelvin]

Flanking requires either a fast light mech, ecm, or fire support. I watched a Stormcrow go in for a "flank", but all that happened was he fired an alpha into a King Crab and then got focused down by the entire enemy team. He didn't call for support or even say what he was doing, just ran out in the open and died.

On the other hand, in the next game the enemy team was camping so someone called for a pincer attack. We split the team in two, sent the heavy assets in one side while the mediums and lights wrapped around behind. The hammer came down and we secured a 12-2 game.

There is also a difference between 1km snipefests and 300-600m firefights as well as 100-300 slugfests and 0m nipple-rubbing brawls.

Edited by LordMelvin, 22 May 2015 - 10:08 AM.

[Khobai]

Ive been saying it for weeks... the problem is the max range on weapons, specifically lasers and gauss. Toning down the range on the Stalker 4N was a good thing but the same needs to be done for all clan lasers and gauss too.

Brawling needs to be brought back into parity with sniping. And by bringing brawling back you also bring LRMs back since brawlers will counter ECM with BAP and hold locks. LRMs by their very nature are a brawler support support, so without brawling, they will never work...

A healthy meta has an equal mix of long-range and brawling. The current meta is diseased. The max range of certain weapons needs to be lowered, brawling weapons like IS/Clan LBX, Clan UACs, and IS SRMs/Streaks need to be buffed, and brawling mechs like the Atlas need armor quirks put in the right places instead of stupid places like their arms.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2015 - 10:12 AM.

[Apnu]

Bilbo, on 22 May 2015 - 09:56 AM, said:

I do it in my Atlas religiously.

For that, you get a like sir!

Khobai, on 22 May 2015 - 10:07 AM, said:

Ive been saying it for weeks... the problem is the max range on weapons, specifically lasers and gauss. Toning down the range on the Stalker 4N was a good thing but the same needs to be done for all clan lasers and gauss too.

Brawling needs to be brought back into parity with sniping. And by bringing brawling back you also bring LRMs back since brawlers will counter ECM with BAP and hold locks. LRMs by their very nature are a brawler support support, so without brawling, they will never work...

A healthy meta has an equal mix of long-range and brawling. The current meta is diseased. The max range of certain weapons needs to be lowered, brawling weapons like IS/Clan LBX, Clan UACs, and IS SRMs/Streaks need to be buffed, and brawling mechs like the Atlas need armor quirks put in the right places instead of stupid places like their arms.

^^^ Truth

[DaZur]

This is such an asinine sentiment...

A good match is a composite of: poke, tactical maneuver, push and flank.

All matches require a little poking to a.) Soften the opposing force, b.) suppress fire, c:) distract, and most importantly "survive" long enough to benefit the team.

Push, flank and and divide forces cannot succeed without a little poking.

I like to brawl as much as the next guy... But I'm not so devoid of tactical awareness to not understand and appreciate that poking is to flank and brawl as the jab is a set-up for the cross and the uppercut for a prize-fighter.

Edited by DaZur, 22 May 2015 - 10:18 AM.

[Apnu]

LordMelvin, on 22 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Flanking requires either a fast light mech, ecm, or fire support. I watched a Stormcrow go in for a "flank", but all that happened was he fired an alpha into a King Crab and then got focused down by the entire enemy team. He didn't call for support or even say what he was doing, just ran out in the open and died.

On the other hand, in the next game the enemy team was camping so someone called for a pincer attack. We split the team in two, sent the heavy assets in one side while the mediums and lights wrapped around behind. The hammer came down and we secured a 12-2 game.

There is also a difference between 1km snipefests and 300-600m firefights as well as 100-300 slugfests and 0m nipple-rubbing brawls.

I flank in mediums all the time. Be they a WVR-6R with dual AC5s or the HBK-4G and the AC20. They both move somewhere between 80-90 kph. I hit a few times and get out. Once they turn on me, I book. If they're looking at me run away, they aren't looking at the rest of my team pouring fire on them.

This can be done with any mech, of course, but only lights and mediums can bug out when things get hot. Heavies and assaults have to stick in and stay, they're so slow that kind of move is a serious commitment. Either they're stealing the match's momentum or they're about to die.

Kudos to you on the pincer, sounds like a great game.

[Khobai]

I dont disagree that matches require poking or softening up the enemy team. The problem is many games never evolve past the poking stage. The whole game is just mechs hiding in cover poking until one team gets worn down through attrition. That gets boring very quickly. It also invalidates mechs with brawling weapons and LRMs, so 2/3rds of the game's weapons are obsolete.

Brawling is too weak right now because 1) poking weapons have too much range 2) brawling weapons like clan UACs, IS/clan LBX, IS SRMs/Streaks, and even Machine Guns are too weak compared to lasers/gauss. 3) brawling mechs like the Atlas have dumb quirks (why does the atlas get arm structure quirks instead of side torso armor quirks? side torso armor is what it NEEDS to protect its AC20)

Again... a healthy meta is one that has a balanced mix of long-range and brawling. And if brawling makes a comeback then LRMs will also make a comeback. Because ECM will get countered and locks will get held... The game would be in a much better place with stronger brawling.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2015 - 10:31 AM.

[McScwizzy]

I love me a good brawl, BUT there are times and places for a brawl. Most of the time it's later in the game. In modern warfare (not the game) hill humping is a valid tactic. I know this because I was a Bradley gunner for a while. We did this in gunnery and in Iraq.

Most all engagements started at long range and we worked our way in. This is the way it happens in game. All seems perfectly normal to me. Not to mention you want to wound the enemy before you go charging in with bayonets. In medieval times they did this with arrows. In modern times it lasts a big longer and the weapons have a bit more range.

Edited by McScwizzy, 22 May 2015 - 10:32 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I love me a good brawl, BUT there are times and places for a brawl.

Except when people brawl anymore theyre still using lasers and gauss.

Mechs like the Atlas that are "pure brawlers" and only have ~270m brawling loadouts are largely obsolete.

You should be able to play a pure brawler and still do reasonably well... but 12v12 and the dominance of the long-range meta makes it so you take way too much damage before you can close the distance.


Even in battletech, the clan's superior weapon ranges didnt completely dominate the game, because they still suffered the +4 penalty to hit at long range. But MWO lets weapons hit at long range with 100% accuracy which drastically increases the long-range damage getting thrown around compared to tabletop. MWO also lets weapons do damage beyond max range (although the damage drops off). Thats why an Atlas can close the distance in tabletop but gets completely gets face melted in MWO.

IMO the problem isnt so much the optimal range of weapons but rather the x2/x3 max range of lasers/ballistics. I feel those max ranges need to be lowered.

Edited by Khobai, 22 May 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[CygnusX7]

LordMelvin, on 22 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Flanking requires either a fast light mech, ecm, or fire support. I watched a Stormcrow go in for a "flank", but all that happened was he fired an alpha into a King Crab and then got focused down by the entire enemy team. He didn't call for support or even say what he was doing, just ran out in the open and died.

On the other hand, in the next game the enemy team was camping so someone called for a pincer attack. We split the team in two, sent the heavy assets in one side while the mediums and lights wrapped around behind. The hammer came down and we secured a 12-2 game.

There is also a difference between 1km snipefests and 300-600m firefights as well as 100-300 slugfests and 0m nipple-rubbing brawls.

Flanking requires a lance or more.

[Mechteric]

Easy answer: stop playing skirmish and assault modes.


Conquest is the only game mode I know of that usually doesn't devolve into that kind of play.

[CocoaJin]

I love it. It's realistic, intuitive and a smart engagement approach. Plus, it always progress into a brawl after one side as masterfully weakened the other.

The aggressive push still has it's place, the murderball still applies, brawls are still common place. The peek-a-boo tactic is still open to flanking(which means LRMs are still useful), still suppress-able with artillery.

It's the best play style to come to the game...and it has the potential to become even more dynamic with the coming inclusion of destructible environments!

[Lugh]

DaZur, on 22 May 2015 - 10:18 AM, said:

This is such an asinine sentiment...

A good match is a composite of: poke, tactical maneuver, push and flank.

All matches require a little poking to a.) Soften the opposing force, b.) suppress fire, c:) distract, and most importantly "survive" long enough to benefit the team.

Push, flank and and divide forces cannot succeed without a little poking.

I like to brawl as much as the next guy... But I'm not so devoid of tactical awareness to not understand and appreciate that poking is to flank and brawl as the jab is a set-up for the cross and the uppercut for a prize-fighter.

There are MANY fast heavies capable of this same deal.

The key is being ~90kph

[Moldur]

I think of it like an old ship battle (sort of)

We fire cannonballs at each other at a distance, until we close at which point one of our ships will be in worse shape than the other. One of the teams then boards and mops up the crew of the other.

[Satan n stuff]

mogs01gt, on 21 May 2015 - 08:33 PM, said:

Is really killing the game for me. I simply cannot sit there and play hide & seek with the other team. What created this boring play style? I want to flank, I want to get to their backs or sides, I want to move.....I think another month or two long break will be good for me but what is the point? I doubt the game will change... I seem to be only to play for a week before it gets dreadfully boring..

Mogs

You do realize that poke and hide tactics make it easier to get flanked right? If you're not moving and you're not fighting aggressively you give the enemy free reign of pretty much the entire map. I don't know what kind of tactics you usually see but I see teams getting outmaneuvered more often than not because their tactics are completely static.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Joseph Mallan, on 22 May 2015 - 08:27 AM, said:

Suddenly hears Whining to the diddy LRMs keep raining on my head. Sorry but open terrain will cater to long range weapons and some people cannot accept that tactical environment.

Buff AMS
Lower LRM dmg etc, many options.
At least there may be an incentive for people to carry lrms with other weapons, and if I'm in my light...I love me some LRM boats...leg shots for all!

[Novakaine]

Yet I still got 3 kills in that match.
In my crap Battlemaster.
Yeah we lost, but not from a lack of trying.
Go back to BF4 or wherever you came from.
You ruining it for everyone else with this toxicity.
Or do as I suggested in that match.
Go die first and fast, but take a enemy mech with ya.
Then just disconnect.

[LordMelvin]

CygnusX7, on 22 May 2015 - 10:40 AM, said:

Flanking requires a lance or more.

Depends on the intent of the flank. If it's just a drive-by to distract the enemy or get free hits on rear armor then one or two fast mechs are all you need. Too many and it draws attention.

For a full on push, yes you'd want a full lance with at least one heavy or assault to provide the fire power.

[DaZur]

Khobai, on 22 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

I dont disagree that matches require poking or softening up the enemy team. The problem is many games never evolve past the poking stage. The whole game is just mechs hiding in cover poking until one team gets worn down through attrition. That gets boring very quickly. It also invalidates mechs with brawling weapons and LRMs, so 2/3rds of the game's weapons are obsolete.

To be fair... Those brawler mechs are only invalidated if the pilots lack the patience or discipline to wait for the right moment to push and death ball or both teams never transition out of the poke.

That is either a pacifist issue, lack of awareness issue or two teams unable to tilt the field through attrition...

Edited by DaZur, 22 May 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Koniks]

CygnusX7, on 22 May 2015 - 10:03 AM, said:

Peek and poke.. THEN flank.
Rinse and repeat. Often.

Find fix flank finish.

LordMelvin, on 22 May 2015 - 10:06 AM, said:

Flanking requires either a fast light mech, ecm, or fire support.

Hit-and-run requires some combination of those.

A flank requires coordinated fire and movement.

[mogs01gt]

Novakaine, on 22 May 2015 - 11:10 AM, said:

Yet I still got 3 kills in that match.
In my crap Battlemaster.
Yeah we lost, but not from a lack of trying.
Go back to BF4 or wherever you came from.
You ruining it for everyone else with this toxicity.
Or do as I suggested in that match.
Go die first and fast, but take a enemy mech with ya.
Then just disconnect.

I had to carry your broke ass in the match with my Crow. I was 2nd in damage, with three kills and you only had 2 kills..

El Bandito, on 22 May 2015 - 08:42 AM, said:

Yeah, lets not play the game optimally by exposing yourself with minimal amount of time while wearing down the enemy. Glorious charges work on few accasions but most of the time it will simply leave everyone on your team dead, while leaving the enemy team laughing.

OP's posts sound like he is the guy who charges alone and dies 1 minute into the game--which I loathe more than even the most cowardly teammate.

nope, again all of these keyboard warriors likes to assume things.

The match that triggered this post had around 6 minutes left in the match and we were down 3-2. 9 minutes of waiting and waiting for the poke team to do something other than get beat down. That is boring and is not how MWO or how a "battletech" game should be played. This style also makes multile mechs obsolete. Look at useless Victors are.

Edited by mogs01gt, 22 May 2015 - 02:23 PM.