244 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Yokaiko, on 23 May 2015 - 02:54 PM, said:

Well ER-PPC + LBX definitely isn't the business

so reinforce a stagnant and boring meta, or find ways to make other things viable..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Burktross]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

actually pretty sure in the post he recommended it, he mentioned complete pod sets. So that would be 8/8 only, aka on a mech with a single ERPPC

I can't believe I missed that.

Sorry, Lordtzar.

[Templar Dane]

Burktross, on 23 May 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

I can't believe I missed that.

Sorry, Lordtzar.

Sorry if I came off as an ass, but I really like the idea of the summoner having the LB10 of a cent and [one of] the ppcs of the old thunderbolt.

edit

And mostly because of the sound effects.

kachunk kachunk vroosh kachunk kachunk vroosh

Edited by lordtzar, 23 May 2015 - 02:59 PM.

[pbiggz]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

so reinforce a stagnant and boring meta, or find ways to make other things viable..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

The buck stops here friend. I want to see the summoner be unique as much as you do, but you mistake unique and useful.

The summoner lacks hard points, armor, speed, maneuverability, pod space, AND heat efficiency. It has 5 locked jumpjets which are useless (because paul made them so), it has ferro and no endo, its stuck with subpar clan ballistics and doesn't have the tonnage to take multiples in order to compensate. You cant laservomit because it lacks the hard points, you can use 5 ssrm6s but you can do the same damned thing on the stormcrow which is faster, has a lower profile, and is lighter.

The summoner should terrify, it should inspire fear, not laughter. Don't be an apologist for the summoner, don't make excuses, its objectively inferior to any other 70 tonner in the game and will remain so until the summoner changes, or the game changes around the summoner.

Edited by pbiggz, 23 May 2015 - 03:01 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 02:55 PM, said:

so reinforce a stagnant and boring meta, or find ways to make other things viable..... hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Well PGI has already nerfed the hell out of the PPC, Jump Jets AND LRM is basically invalid due to all of the ECM, LBXs have always been useless outside of sneezing distances, and CUACs suck due to both crappy burst times AND crap hit registration.


......what exactly are we going to do with it?

[Burktross]

lordtzar, on 23 May 2015 - 02:58 PM, said:

Sorry if I came off as an ass, but I really like the idea of the summoner having the LB10 of a cent and [one of] the ppcs of the old thunderbolt.

edit

And mostly because of the sound effects.

kachunk kachunk vroosh kachunk kachunk vroosh

To top it I'd say give it ammo quirks for that 8/8 omni deal. But damn, not even 200% ammo quirks would save the summoner prime ;_;

[Templar Dane]

Burktross, on 23 May 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

To top it I'd say give it ammo quirks for that 8/8 omni deal. But damn, not even 200% ammo quirks would save the summoner prime ;_;

Yeah, would likely still have to strip the LRM15.

You could still do max armor and with a 3x modifier for ammo it could work with the stock loadout.

edit

If you did 2 tons of LBX ammo and 1 ton of lrm ammo.

Edited by lordtzar, 23 May 2015 - 03:09 PM.

[Yokaiko]

Burktross, on 23 May 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

To top it I'd say give it ammo quirks for that 8/8 omni deal. But damn, not even 200% ammo quirks would save the summoner prime ;_;

Even then, the mech has no punch you are reliant on your team to not be terribad to carry you while you poke and harass, why bother when you can just take a mech that does hurt.

[ilikerice]

sycocys, on 22 May 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm sure this was a topic when the pack was released, but I just got down to this mech... and it feels like its locked in some weird IS trial mech limbo.

It doesn't have enough armor to brawl, or hard point options to really do anything effectively. It's got the same armor as the Mad Dog, with 1/8th of the load out options. Several pods are completely empty and don't even offer some sort of reasonable bonus for being otherwise useless.

The point of this mech totally baffles me after better than an hour of trying to outfit it in the mechlab.

You know the REAL problem with the summoner?

It's that it isn't a cataphract...

Next person that posts gets a CTF-0XP to remedy this problem.

Then you can run your favorite summoner builds with ECM instead

[Burktross]

Yokaiko, on 23 May 2015 - 03:07 PM, said:

Even then, the mech has no punch you are reliant on your team to not be terribad to carry you while you poke and harass, why bother when you can just take a mech that does hurt.

The same argument goes for any of the non-meta chassis or bottom of weight division mechs, then. I actually like the Summoner stock, but the ammo is a handicap I can't circumvent.

[Cupid and Psyche _]

As others have pointed out, the Summoner has the issue of a heavy mech trying to do everything. The 'mech just really stretches itself too thin...

The Summoner is the perfect example of a 'mech that is average in every area, but not good in one.

[ilikerice]

Burktross, on 23 May 2015 - 03:10 PM, said:

The same argument goes for any of the non-meta chassis or bottom of weight division mechs, then. I actually like the Summoner stock, but the ammo is a handicap I can't circumvent.

Your Cataphract is in the mail.

Enjoy

[Chrome Magnus]

sycocys, on 22 May 2015 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm sure this was a topic when the pack was released, but I just got down to this mech... and it feels like its locked in some weird IS trial mech limbo.

It doesn't have enough armor to brawl, or hard point options to really do anything effectively. It's got the same armor as the Mad Dog..."

The summoner might have the same armor as a MD but I can make it survive a lot more punishment. I can actually do pretty well and have a lot of fun with mine but to be honest I settled on a SRM build a while back and haven't really tried others since then... I do wish we could free up even just a little weight as ammo can become an issue.

[C E Dwyer]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 07:12 AM, said:

If it had endo, the 3.5 tons locked JJs wouldn't matter. Extra hardpoints would be nice, especially a second missile slot in the LT. But the stock armament on the Prime, for example can do surprising amounts of damage...if it had the ammo and armor to use it well.

similar problems with the Gargoyle prime, you blink and its ammo is gone, leaving it with a single ERSL,

[Thunder Child]

Personally, I think Jumpjets need a HUGE buff. BUT, make it an all of nothing thing. You want Jumpjets? Fine. Fly like a Rocket! BUT, you have to have ALL of them. That way, Jumpjets can be good again, but you won't have people mounting just ONE to get mega insane buffs.

OR!

And I like this idea better actually, give the Poor Summoner a Jumpjet Thrust Buff. He's already good Agility and Speed Buffs. Make him an all out Flanker and give him SDR-5V level Thrust.

[Ultimax]

Darth Bane001, on 23 May 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

I never bothered eliting it personally just doesn't compare to just about anything else in the same weight class or even lower. ...saying that though if they were to lower the laser duration for the large laser on that I imagine more people would use it more.

This is the dichotomy of these forums.


People will put together Grasshopper builds that struggle to do 40 points of laser damage at mid-range with an IS XL engine and call it a good or serviceable mech.

Then you can do basically the same kind of firepower on the Summoner, be faster and more survivable with more jump jets and better overall range and "it doesn't compare to anything in the same weight class or even lower".



The Summoner has it's limitations but saying that it can't compare to medium mechs is the kind of hyperbole you should be embarrassed about.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 23 May 2015 - 03:38 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Burktross, on 23 May 2015 - 03:02 PM, said:

To top it I'd say give it ammo quirks for that 8/8 omni deal. But damn, not even 200% ammo quirks would save the summoner prime ;_;

actually, it would be pretty huge. I regularly pull 400-500 pt matches with my Stock Prime. I have broken 600 a few times. You run out of ammo at about 510 dmg (if everything was to hit) so only so much a single ERPPC could do. But 200% ammo is what I run in my second Summoner Prime, for the LB-X, and it ain't perfect, but makes a difference.

I just think things like 2x ammo Quirks really feel even more gimmicky than the existing quirks, some of which are pretty bad.

Give me Endo, and I can 200% ammo myself, or use it elsewhere as I desire.

[Creovex]

Sack up -- 3xCSSRM4, 2xCERL, 1xTC3 Solved!
or - 3xCSSRM6, 2xCERL, 1xCAP Solved again!
Jump in and out, keep it moving and hit and run like a madman!

I drop this everytime as my first mech in CW...

Edited by Creovex, 23 May 2015 - 03:45 PM.

[Templar Dane]

Ultimatum X, on 23 May 2015 - 03:37 PM, said:

This is the dichotomy of these forums.


People will put together Grasshopper builds that struggle to do 40 points of laser damage at mid-range with an IS XL engine and call it a good or serviceable mech.

Then you can do basically the same kind of firepower on the Summoner, be faster and more survivable with more jump jets and better overall range and "it doesn't compare to anything in the same weight class or even lower".



The Summoner has it's limitations but saying that it can't compare to medium mechs is the kind of hyperbole you should be embarrassed about.

More survivable? Grasshopper has quirked arms and a much thinner profile.

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 23 May 2015 - 02:53 PM, said:

actually pretty sure in the post he recommended it, he mentioned complete pod sets. So that would be 8/8 only, aka on a mech with a single ERPPC

I got soft and reacquired the Summoner-D, and left the omnipods intact (well, the omnipod bonus was actually worth it, but only for one particular build...).

I did it for the Summoner-B as well (well, not on the rebuying part, just the stock omnipods).

I'll NEVER do it for the Summoner-Prime though (ERPPCs and the quirk on the Summoner would have to be better, and the LBX has to suck less IMO).

Quote

because what we need is MOAR large laser vomit

While 4 CERMED isn't quite I'd call a lot of laser vomit (Ice Ferret can have more), I'm still waiting for the Summoner-M's LT, and "Endo" to be made available for the Summoner... then all of a sudden... the Summoner would become a Timberwolf-light option with 5 CERMED+Gauss... and it would be a glorious new meta... (and you'll vomit in your mouth too )

pbiggz, on 23 May 2015 - 03:00 PM, said:

The buck stops here friend. I want to see the summoner be unique as much as you do, but you mistake unique and useful.

The summoner lacks hard points, armor, speed, maneuverability, pod space, AND heat efficiency. It has 5 locked jumpjets which are useless (because paul made them so), it has ferro and no endo, its stuck with subpar clan ballistics and doesn't have the tonnage to take multiples in order to compensate. You cant laservomit because it lacks the hard points, you can use 5 ssrm6s but you can do the same damned thing on the stormcrow which is faster, has a lower profile, and is lighter.

The summoner should terrify, it should inspire fear, not laughter. Don't be an apologist for the summoner, don't make excuses, its objectively inferior to any other 70 tonner in the game and will remain so until the summoner changes, or the game changes around the summoner.

I don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be. 4 CERMED+Gauss is pretty good and serviceable, but not much else (the Splattoner - 5 ASRM6 is pretty nice, but very niche). It's still better than the Cataphract+Grasshopper to be fair... mainly due the Grasshopper not having the same speed or same "effective range" that a Summoner can pull off.

I dunno.. I feel it's underrated (mostly thanks to the creator of the Paulconomy), but just even allowing Endo would bring it back to where it is needed (and the release of the Summoner-M).

ilikerice, on 23 May 2015 - 03:12 PM, said:

Your Cataphract is in the mail.

Enjoy

Why can't I have nice things?



One of these days...

Edited by Deathlike, 23 May 2015 - 04:09 PM.