161 replies to this topic

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

weapon x killed me,nerf it!

[Deathlike]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Do crits actually work if there's armor on the location, as I was under the impression that they only become possible once armor is removed from the location, ie no through armor crits currently. I remember PGI stating at some point during CB that we don't have through armor crits and if you were subject to one bug report it, as it WAS happening on occassion back then.

Crits don't work when there's external armor... UNLESS...

Say you have 14 external armor left on that section AND someone shoots Gauss into that section.

Since external armor is removed, you can immediately do extra crit damage ON THAT BLOW.

I hope that helps explain a few things.

Mcgral18, on 26 May 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Gauss#1 damages it, Gauss#2 opens and crits.

FLD weapons crit fully when striking Internal Structure (IS), so 15 damage crit, 15% to IS, even if it only dealt 12 damage.

2.25*2=4.5

34.5>33

Just incredibly rare. Take it to the testing grounds if you want, but it took my 3 runs to get just 1. It did happen, though.


There are 3 available crits in the head, at minumum (4 if you have something else in there)

That is sad and you'd think they would buff the head Internal Structure a bit... or reduce the damage conversion... but that would also mean reworking every weapon's crit damage bonus (MG, LBX, Flamers...) around the changed value.

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2015 - 02:10 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2015 - 02:09 PM, said:

Crits don't work when there's external armor... UNLESS...

Say you have 14 external armor left on that section AND someone shoots Gauss into that section.

Since external armor is removed, you can immediately do extra crit damage ON THAT BLOW.

I hope that helps explain a few things.

Clear as mud...

So the left over damage after removing armor, we're talking dual gauss in particular here, is that calculated using ONLY the 2nd gauss round, as the first round removed the armor? Or is it a combination of both shots? I would THINK it would be only from the 2nd round, as the first removed the armor and any extra damage should be applied without any critical modifiers. The 2nd round would have to get a critical, since it actually has a possibility of doing that, and IT'S damage would be modified. Which, if you are running lowball head armor, could easily manage a 1 shot kill.

Full head armor, it shouldn't be able to 1 shot kill, there's too much armor for 1 single gauss to remove it all, so both would be required to remove all the damage AND there shouldn't be any chance to crit from that dual gauss hit.

IF PGI did these things logically that is...

[Cyborne Elemental]

Gauss is the one weapon in this game that should never have been quirked or given modules for cooldowns.

[Bulletsponge0]

Herr Vorragend, on 26 May 2015 - 01:27 PM, said:

Why? The gauss already has lots of negative aspects to deal with. And you can avoid double gaussers with intelligent positioning.

You can nerf a game to death, don't do that (says someone, who doesn't use gauss cause of the bloody charge-up)

terrible argument to use when discussing balance...

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2015 - 02:11 PM, said:

That is sad and you'd think they would buff the head Internal Structure a bit... or reduce the damage conversion... but that would also mean reworking every weapon's crit damage bonus (MG, LBX, Flamers...) around the changed value.

Give the Gauss a 0.5 or 0.25 crit multiplier; fixed.

Also removes the ability for it to easily crit an AC20 (or anything that's not a Gauss rifle)

Edited by Mcgral18, 26 May 2015 - 02:18 PM.

[Lord Perversor]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 02:05 PM, said:

Do crits actually work if there's armor on the location, as I was under the impression that they only become possible once armor is removed from the location, ie no through armor crits currently. I remember PGI stating at some point during CB that we don't have through armor crits and if you were subject to one bug report it, as it WAS happening on occassion back then.

AS far i'm aware there is no tru armor hits.

Another different thing is the chance 2x Gauss hitting at once then criting after burn away the 18 armor points in head.

[Matthew Ace]

Burktross, on 26 May 2015 - 01:31 PM, said:

Meanwhile, on tabletop.
----------------------
Next Round
---------------------
"Alright, I'm kicking you from hexlevel 1"
"To hit of 6."
"k"
**Rolls 7**
"Alright, lets see: punch table."
**Rolls 12**
"I ******* hate you man."

Pfft, at least get the punch table right. You roll 1d6 for punch table, not 2d6.

[DoctorDetroit]

Bulletsponge0, on 26 May 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

terrible argument to use when discussing balance...

How is that not intelligent to consider all aspects of a weapon and it's use when making balance decisions? Gauss has limitations right now that allow a mech to position itself to avoid the weapon.

I feel that the charge mechanic for gauss makes no sense from an engineering stand point (capacitors can remain charged for a VERY long time).

[Bulletsponge0]

DoctorDetroit, on 26 May 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

How is that not intelligent to consider all aspects of a weapon and it's use when making balance decisions? Gauss has limitations right now that allow a mech to position itself to avoid the weapon.

I feel that the charge mechanic for gauss makes no sense from an engineering stand point (capacitors can remain charged for a VERY long time).

timberwolves are OP..."No they aren't, intelligent positioning can negate them"

[Bilbo]

DoctorDetroit, on 26 May 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

How is that not intelligent to consider all aspects of a weapon and it's use when making balance decisions? Gauss has limitations right now that allow a mech to position itself to avoid the weapon.

I feel that the charge mechanic for gauss makes no sense from an engineering stand point (capacitors can remain charged for a VERY long time).

You can position yourself to avoid all weapons. How is it different in the case of the gauss? The weapon is supposed to have a minimum range. The charge mechanic was put in in its stead. I think we'd be better off if they had just given it the min range.

[DoctorDetroit]

Bulletsponge0, on 26 May 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

timberwolves are OP..."No they aren't, intelligent positioning can negate them"

Except positioning is one of the biggest reason Timberwolves are at the top. They are fast and can equip 1-2 JJs. You see, positioning/maneuvering mechs is important!

Do you not consider the high hardpoints of the Jager or Blackjack when you decide how to play/position those mechs? It is all part of balance.

Bilbo, on 26 May 2015 - 02:38 PM, said:

You can position yourself to avoid all weapons. How is it different in the case of the gauss? The weapon is supposed to have a minimum range. The charge mechanic was put in in its stead. I think we'd be better off if they had just given it the min range.

Wait... the charge mechanic is why positioning is different for gauss and effects balance. So it should very much be considered that you can poke and fire at a gauss mech and unless your predictable they won't be able to return fire. (I don't get why they chose to balance gauss with charge up in the first place, but it is part of the weapons use now.)

Edited by DoctorDetroit, 26 May 2015 - 02:43 PM.

[Deathlike]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 02:14 PM, said:

Clear as mud...

So the left over damage after removing armor, we're talking dual gauss in particular here, is that calculated using ONLY the 2nd gauss round, as the first round removed the armor? Or is it a combination of both shots? I would THINK it would be only from the 2nd round, as the first removed the armor and any extra damage should be applied without any critical modifiers. The 2nd round would have to get a critical, since it actually has a possibility of doing that, and IT'S damage would be modified. Which, if you are running lowball head armor, could easily manage a 1 shot kill.

Full head armor, it shouldn't be able to 1 shot kill, there's too much armor for 1 single gauss to remove it all, so both would be required to remove all the damage AND there shouldn't be any chance to crit from that dual gauss hit.

IF PGI did these things logically that is...

AFAIK, convergence... allows for the simultaneous hit to be considered "one hit".

So, in the case of Dual Gauss vs a spot that has 29 (or so - anything under 30) points of external armor can both crit. Both Gauss Rifles will have to go through the RNG separately to determine whether both do extra crit damage or not (well, through the algo that determines whether a crit is generated by each weapon).

I hope that clears things up. This also occurs with laservomit as well (although, it is not as insane as FLD based weapons - the crit generation is done per tic - .1 second intervals).

Edited by Deathlike, 26 May 2015 - 02:44 PM.

[Kiiyor]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

IF you are getting instagibbed by dual gauss, I can see the problem and it isn't the dual gauss, it's you. 30 point pinpoint isn't enough to take the head off, which is the only way to get a single shot kill in MWO currently.

Now, if you lowball the armor on your head, that's entirely on you, that's not dual gauss being OP.

Not to mention, dual gauss pinpoint is never really pinpoint if you're moving quickly, due to aiming off.

IMHO, dual gauss is only (borderline) an issue on the Dire, because it can carry so many additional weapons. On the Yager, the drawbacks are pretty severe.

[Bilbo]

DoctorDetroit, on 26 May 2015 - 02:41 PM, said:

Except positioning is one of the biggest reason Timberwolves are at the top. They are fast and can equip 1-2 JJs. You see, positioning/maneuvering mechs is important!

Do you not consider the high hardpoints of the Jager or Blackjack when you decide how to play/position those mechs? It is all part of balance.



Wait... the charge mechanic is why positioning is different for gauss and effects balance. So it should very much be considered that you can poke and fire at a gauss mech and unless your predictable they won't be able to return fire. (I don't get why they chose to balance gauss with charge up in the first place, but it is part of the weapons use now.)

So your idea of balance is to force everyone to play peak-a-boo with gauss mechs, for the entire match, at all ranges and ignoring the fact that the rest of it's team can force you out of your hidey hole?

[Johnny Z]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 01:34 PM, said:

IF you are getting instagibbed by dual gauss, I can see the problem and it isn't the dual gauss, it's you. 30 point pinpoint isn't enough to take the head off, which is the only way to get a single shot kill in MWO currently.

Now, if you lowball the armor on your head, that's entirely on you, that's not dual gauss being OP.

I am not commenting if dual gauss should go or not but this reply is wrong and that goes for the other similar replies others have made on this topic. A dual gauss will end the match for many Inner Sphere light mechs from the front if it hits the right torso, left torso, center torso, right leg, left leg. Basically is it hits many of the Inner Sphere lights almost anywhere even once the match is over for those mechs. I hope those reading this can understand these words because this isnt a new game and many have replied in this topic completely wrong info.

Edited by Johnny Z, 26 May 2015 - 02:53 PM.

[nehebkau]

@OP,
Gauss are only a pain (even dual Gauss) if you are standing still or if someone is using an aimbot -- otherwise they are a feast or famine weapon.

[Johnny Z]

I repeat Dual Guass will end the match for many Inner Sphere lights if they hit the Inner Sphere light almost anywhere even once.

A commandos leg with full armor has 24 points so with quirks it would survive a hit if it has 0 damage but with fall damage or anything else even scratches it then its one hit gone. The Commandos front right torso cant take a hit even with no damage. Match over, same with anywhere on the back. Arms gone with a hit of course. CT could take a hit but again it basically has to be completely fresh.

Oh ya, please change the charge up since making the Guass only for the program assisted isnt cool.

Edited by Johnny Z, 26 May 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Kristov Kerensky]

Deathlike, on 26 May 2015 - 02:43 PM, said:

AFAIK, convergence... allows for the simultaneous hit to be considered "one hit".

So, in the case of Dual Gauss vs a spot that has 29 (or so - anything under 30) points of external armor can both crit. Both Gauss Rifles will have to go through the RNG separately to determine whether both do extra crit damage or not (well, through the algo that determines whether a crit is generated by each weapon).

I hope that clears things up. This also occurs with laservomit as well (although, it is not as insane as FLD based weapons - the crit generation is done per tic - .1 second intervals).

Thank you, so that means the shot that got the armor and had enough to go to the IS can still crit AND the 2nd shot can crit as well since the armor is gone.

Very messed up way to handle that.

Johnny Z, on 26 May 2015 - 02:51 PM, said:

I am not commenting if dual gauss should go or not but this reply is wrong and that goes for the other similar replies others have made on this topic. A dual gauss will end the match for many Inner Sphere light mechs from the front if it hits the right torso, left torso, center torso, right leg, left leg. Basically is it hits many of the Inner Sphere lights almost anywhere even once the match is over for those mechs. I hope those reading this can understand these words because this isnt a new game and many have replied in this topic completely wrong info.

Really? Are you sure? Because I know my Raven, Panther, Urby, Spider, Kit Fox, etc have all survived dual gauss impacts to everything, including the cockpit(which, btw, is a VERY scary thing in a Light moving over 150kph!). Now, if they get hit in the BACK with an XL(IS), yes, that dual gauss can very quickly end their day, but that's just ONE of the many weapons that will do that to a Light from behind. So it's not the weapon that is the problem, it's the fact that it's a Light Mech, which is NOT known for it's ability to take blows in the first place, remember?

Outside of Lights, back shots from dual gauss will take out quite a few Mechs if they have XL, even a number without XL. Dual AC20s will do it even better and to even more Mechs. Should we also remove the ability to carry 2 AC20s?

How about we remove all weapons that if combined can do more than 20 damage total in an alpha, that way, NO ONE CAN BE 1 SHOTTED!

[Johnny Z]

Kristov Kerensky, on 26 May 2015 - 03:03 PM, said:

Thank you, so that means the shot that got the armor and had enough to go to the IS can still crit AND the 2nd shot can crit as well since the armor is gone.

Very messed up way to handle that.




Really? Are you sure? Because I know my Raven, Panther, Urby, Spider, Kit Fox, etc have all survived dual gauss impacts to everything, including the cockpit(which, btw, is a VERY scary thing in a Light moving over 150kph!). Now, if they get hit in the BACK with an XL(IS), yes, that dual gauss can very quickly end their day, but that's just ONE of the many weapons that will do that to a Light from behind. So it's not the weapon that is the problem, it's the fact that it's a Light Mech, which is NOT known for it's ability to take blows in the first place, remember?

Outside of Lights, back shots from dual gauss will take out quite a few Mechs if they have XL, even a number without XL. Dual AC20s will do it even better and to even more Mechs. Should we also remove the ability to carry 2 AC20s?

How about we remove all weapons that if combined can do more than 20 damage total in an alpha, that way, NO ONE CAN BE 1 SHOTTED!

I have been in a match where the first two shots of the match from dual guass took out 2 mechs. Thats full armor on my mech, not sure about the ally. Not long after that the charge was added. Anyway dual guass ends a match with a head shot last I seen.

Yes I am 100% positive dual gauss will end the match for a fully armoured commando if it takes a dual gauss to the right or left torso even once.

Again not saying dual gauss should be changed out or not. I dont feel confident with alot of balance discussions to say that. The charge should be removed though since it caters to program assisted players and hinders legit players.

Edited by Johnny Z, 26 May 2015 - 03:54 PM.