94 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

If I might be allowed an aside and one very big quibble:
Calling BT SF in any sense of the word would be a stretch of monumental proportions. Its static nature is antithesis to that literary tradition. Children make the mistakes of their parents, over and over and over ad infinitum and it's never once asked why that fundamentally seems doomed to happen. 40k was never SF, is not fundamentally different from BT in any notable regard, and it's high fantasy, pure and simple. It might be high fantasy with laser guns, but contrary to the common mistake made in identifying these genres, the fantasy/SF divide was never about the nature of technology, and since magic is by definition technology -well, usually-, that's not even a workable definition in the first place. Star Wars is textbook Campbellian fantasy. How to Train your Dragon is, at least in my opinion, textbook science fiction. It doesn't matter than the former has space ships and the latter, well, dragons. These genres are not defined that way, but are instead defined the same way all genres are defined: the nature and progression of the fundamental plot that the characters progress through and the fundamental nature of the characters themself.

Noted science fiction author David Brin offers a brief exploration of the difference here. Science fiction is, at its core, exactly what he calls it: the literature of change.




I note this because there's just no way in which these two franchises interact at the genre level. That just doesn't come into play here, because at heart, they're the same genre, and they deal with the same elements and the same basic rules, exactly the same basic rules. So what if the phenomena in 40k include the psychic? That either just means the laws of physics are a little different, or that 40k's civilizations have discovered something, a technology, a method, that BT's haven't, just like BT has discovered FTL, which is either reliant on physical rules that don't and can't exist here in the real universe, or is simply reliant on the discovery of rules and associated phenomena that we have not discovered. That doesn't mean there's a genre difference here, or that one is science fiction and the other is not.

In fact, these two universes both exist and persist precisely because neither is science fiction. What would happen if either did permit change, real, lasting change, change so fundamental that it allowed characters to not only question, but even to rewrite the fundamental premises of the story? This is the sort of story that neither franchise allows, because for better or worse, the creators have decided that stagnation and endless repetition of the mistakes of forebearers is what maintains the ideal universe for their purposes. Sooner or later even the Republic of the Sphere will come crashing down, and oh hey, WAR TIME folks. That process has already begun, and anyone here could have predicted it long before the HPG network collapse. I certainly don't say this out of scorn, well not much scorn anyways. I have real fondness for BT, and certainly no animosity towards 40k (some of its fans perhaps, but that's true of anything). Nevertheless, they are what they are.

A real science fiction franchise even entering this discussion would turn this entire comparison on its head, because the very act of introducing them would be to entertain the possibility that the fundamental premises of 40k or BT could become malleable, or even able to be thrown in the dustbin altogether, to the effect of, well, who the hell knows what. Imagine Trek coming in and having to entertain the possibility that every aspect of the warp might be amenable to scientific investigation, and every problem a solution via technology and imagination. Imagine Stargate coming in with hard-learned lessons from generations past, lessons about not making the mistakes of their forebearers when it came to self-made and self-proclaimed gods and demigods that might influence the status of everyone from the chaos gods to the Emperor and fundamentally upset the universe (the Tau'ri did basically get sick of the Ori and wipe them all out with a device the size of a fruitcake after all). That is what genre differences look like.

BT and 40k meeting doesn't require changing premises of either universe. There's no difference in the premises of the universes. So you certainly can't say that that's why one side or the other is going to triumph.

40k is going to win here because it's just better at doing what BT does than BT is, at least insofar as making mean, war-making, classic fantasy civilizations (new and improved with pewpew laser guns). 40K has older, bigger and meaner versions of the same thing, plain and simple.

Edited by Catamount, 11 June 2015 - 03:35 PM.

[Void Angel]

RedDragon, on 11 June 2015 - 01:53 AM, said:

I like how you basically answer your own point there

The thing is: Battletech is Science Fiction. Logically there is some fiction, as implied in the genre's name. WH on the other hand I wouldn't even call SF any more, it's more Fantasy IMO.
Yes, Battletech has some fictional elements, but in fact, right now the KF-Drive is the only thing that comes to my mind that is not plausible, and that is a plot device that is needed to get it to the "space" genre. Every other tech they possess could be usable in the next 25 years or so if mankind deemed it necessary to invent it.
But with WH it's totally different. Not only are they in an age far more in the future, making technology possible that we wouldn't even dream of, but they also add many fantasy elements to the mix as demons possessing their vehicles and weapons, psionics, aliens etc. And even in the realm of "real" science they take great freedoms in their setting.

So yes, I stand by my statement that WH would win by Space Magic. Because that's exactly what you said in your post. Different systems with different premises. BT is hard and "plausible" (as far as the genre goes) Sci-Fi, WH more Science-Fantasy or something.

I said, "within the conceits of its genre." That's important, although technically I should have said "subgenre." Everything that's outside the bounds of theoretical science is space magic - to include antigravity and faster than light travel. My point was that "space magic" isn't a useful term here, and actually misses the point - the actual magic analogue is psikers, but even taking them out of the equation, Warhammer will pound Battletech flat. Since we're comparing different fictional universes, the term "space magic" as a qualifier simply isn't meaningful. Both are, strictly speaking, science fantasy genres - it's just that while BattleTech is low fantasy, Warhammer is very, very high.

[Nebfer]

IraqiWalker, on 08 June 2015 - 05:48 PM, said:

The tiniest Titan is the Warhound SCOUT Titan. In BT terms it has about 600 armor on each section, front and back. Stands taller than an Atlas. Runs at 150 Kph, has MASC + supercharger that will never jam, or damage the reactor, but when used the mech can't fire. Can literally leap into the air as if it had 3-4 JJs equipped. Is armed with two arm mounted weapons, and the weakest option is capable of oneshotting BT dreadnaughts. This is all before counting the shields, which can stop continent-leveling firepower from damaging the titan.

Where is is stated that it runs at 150kph? the Wikis mention 60kph, while perhaps a bit low however I can not find much in the way that seriously says otherwise.

Though I have ran into a few quotes from Titanicus where Warlords have serious mobility issues, getting out of a crouch takes at lest a full minute, IIRC once fallen it takes a fair bit of time to get up

Quote

A single warhound can tear through 3 stars of direwolves, without breaking a sweat, and I'm talking 3250 tech direwolves. Since it can clock in at 400 Kph at will, has more armor on the legs than they do anywhere ever, and unlike them, does not scatter it's shots all over the place, if the weapon hits, it hits.

Now your contradicting your self first you say 150kph now it's 400? looking through 40k books I find little in the way of speed, but again little to suggest scout titans have a 400kph top speed.

Quote

I absolutely agree here. When I first saw this thread I was expecting it to devolve into another fanboy war. However, I have to give kudos to everyone. Especially Azeem (OP). Almost everyone participated in a meaningful way. There was little to no rabid fanboyism, and for the most part, everyone remained respectful. Civilized discussion is very refreshing, and even if we disagree on every point, as long as everyone remains respectful, it ends on a good note.

The problem is your seriously wanking up 40k, which is actually not even needed. WH40k can beat B-tech at a even playing field, it massively out numbers B-tech forces, and their super heavys are tough cookies for even a lance of assault, scout Titans can easily be a company of assault mechs, and go up from their.

IraqiWalker, on 09 June 2015 - 02:16 PM, said:

For example: To pierce the shields, and armor of a titan, you need the largest naval cannons, and lasers, and even then, you're barely putting a dent in it, with NAVAL weaponry. On the other hand, a simple hand held Lascannon is the equivalent of a Naval Laser 55. Space marines field those in squads. The Imperial guard has those in the thousands per detachment. The Guardsman Lasgun is the equivalent to a BT ML, carried by literally every soldier in the IG. Under a rank fire at half range, each soldier will shoot three times. In a platoon of 50, that's 150 shots going down range, in ONE turn. 150 MLs, that generate 0 heat, hitting a target. Hell, even if we demote them to SLs, that's still 150 SLs hitting a target. If that target is an enemy lance they just suffered from 450 damage. Factoring in accuracy, yada yada, that's still about 200 damage, from one squad of infantry.

To put it bluntly: there are no infantry mounted weapons in BT, that can be a threat to void shields, and titans come with several of those. Even if the shields are down, there are still no infantry mounted weapons that are capable of chewing through all the armor a titan has, before the shields refresh.

Oh heck no spacemarine lascannons are not kiloton death lasers, they are nowhere close to that powerful.
And lasguns are not even close to that powerful, Lasguns are fluffed as being not much better than Autoguns, which is fluffed as not being much better than real life AK-47s. B-tech small lasers are fluffed as vaporizing people and or melting 180kg of B-tech armor (realistic values peg that at ~200 megajoules per shot -or as high as 600Mj or more if you want vaporization...).

Lasguns Generally do not vaporize people every time they hit some one. If they did the Guard storys would be filled with one side fired their lasguns and the other side turned to vapor, which Never happens with lasguns. looking at one of the Gaunt books right now, ran into a situation where a about 9 guys where killed in close range with a lasgun, not one of them was described as being vaporized, not one was described as having their head or limb blown off (even though some where hit in the head). Also with the Cain Series one dose not get the felling that lasguns are tank guns in terms of power.

Anti Titan weapons are described as in the kiloton range, which is in the range of B-tech naval lasers.

[IraqiWalker]

Nebfer, on 11 June 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Where is is stated that it runs at 150kph? the Wikis mention 60kph, while perhaps a bit low however I can not find much in the way that seriously says otherwise.

Though I have ran into a few quotes from Titanicus where Warlords have serious mobility issues, getting out of a crouch takes at lest a full minute, IIRC once fallen it takes a fair bit of time to get up

Sorry, I was counting it with the turbo boost there (which screwed up my statement in the other section). Also, Warlords are not the same as WarHOUNDS. The Warlord is a very large titan.

The sizes go "Warhound -> Reaver -> Warlord -> Imperator -> Castigator"
(The Castigator was a one of a kind Titan, possibly the first one. Had a cannon that fired demons, and it looked fully humanoid, stood upright, and didn't hunch.)

Nebfer, on 11 June 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Now your contradicting your self first you say 150kph now it's 400? looking through 40k books I find little in the way of speed, but again little to suggest scout titans have a 400kph top speed.

Warhound titans can get almost triple their movement speed if they transfer all energy to their legs. Think of it like MASC+Turbocharger, without the downsides of either. I got hung up on the 150 Kph it gets from turbo boosting, and when I was writing my post I ended up almost tripling that.

Spoiler

Also, I didn't contradict myself. When I listed the base speed at 150, MASC+Turbocharger will get it to about 400 (150 x 2.5 = 375). my mistake was that I started with the turbocharge speed, rather than the actual speed. Since it's 60 base, not 150

Nebfer, on 11 June 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Oh heck no spacemarine lascannons are not kiloton death lasers, they are nowhere close to that powerful.
And lasguns are not even close to that powerful, Lasguns are fluffed as being not much better than Autoguns, which is fluffed as not being much better than real life AK-47s. B-tech small lasers are fluffed as vaporizing people and or melting 180kg of B-tech armor (realistic values peg that at ~200 megajoules per shot -or as high as 600Mj or more if you want vaporization...).

No, Lascannons are pretty powerful, I wouldn't say their yield is in the Kilotons (laser weapons' output is measure in watts.), but it's close (definitely in the 800 Kilowatts range, easily). Just because they don't cause large scale devastation, doesn't mean they don't hit their target with insane firepower. It's S9 AP2, and it can actually hurt titans, and is capable of one-shotting super heavies. The beauty of the weapon is that it's a focused blast. A laser hitting from orbit can cause a detonation measured in megatons, because it ignites the surface of the planet, and possibly the atmosphere. That detonation can be measured in megatons. While a beam that burns through the target will have it's output measured in Megawatts. Also, you really should have read my reasoning behind putting the Lascannon as a NL-55. Remember, this was to try and convert 40K, to BT, and getting /some/ kind of balance. I know the Lascannon isn't as powerful as an NL-55 (It's still pretty darn close), but for the effect, and points involved, plus portability, you want it to be.
I quoted the section with my process, and explanation, to put things into context.

Quote

Thought process behind Lascannon = NL-55, and my general approach to try and balance things on the table

Spoiler

An ERLL is only 163 BV. That means if I get my Guardsman platoon of 50 12 of those (still leaves me three more heavy weapons choices, letting the platoon strap Heavy Bolters, Flamers, and Multi Meltas) I am at 1956 BV just for the ERLLs. I'm getting 96 damage from that. That's from one Platoon (and under a Rank order, that's doubled, btw. That's not the best use though. Using another order I can let them re-roll all missed shots with those ERLLs)

Now if I have the NL-55, I need to spend 1386 BV for ONE NL-55, and I'm getting only 55 damage from it. For the BV, the ERLL (and I'm using the IS one here), is significantly more efficient when used by heavy weapons teams, and platoons. Using the NL 55 actually keeps the Lascannon in check, instead of buffing it.

That's my analysis from a TT standpoint. We start dropping it's power level even more, and it becomes clear we're not really using a Lascannon anymore, and on top of it, we can get even more of those EVERYWHERE.

Nebfer, on 11 June 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Lasguns Generally do not vaporize people every time they hit some one. If they did the Guard storys would be filled with one side fired their lasguns and the other side turned to vapor, which Never happens with lasguns. looking at one of the Gaunt books right now, ran into a situation where a about 9 guys where killed in close range with a lasgun, not one of them was described as being vaporized, not one was described as having their head or limb blown off (even though some where hit in the head). Also with the Cain Series one dose not get the felling that lasguns are tank guns in terms of power.

If the laser isn't big enough to erase the limb, it can't erase the limb. These are not the zap guns from "Mars Attacks". The beam will sear through flesh in a fraction of a second, and vaporizes the small area it hit. If it was wide enough to hit a full human being, or at least to fully cover a limb, then yes, it would erase it. More often than not, what kills you when hit by an Imperial Lasgun is the shock your body goes through, plus the possible necrosis from the horrible burns.

There are stories where the effect of a headshot ranges from just a hole burning through the head, all the way to it melting/exploding. However, they all agree on one thing. When it hit a spot, it burns straight through.

Here's a better description of the effect of a Lasgun:

Quote

The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion. It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Imperium, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour).

It's unimpressive compared to 40K, where Bolters are firing mini RPGs at full auto. Also, bear in mind that the Lasgun's power output can be adjusted to change it's lethality. Ranging from crippling shots, all the way to instant-fried. Of course, higher power output shots will drain the battery faster, so guardsmen usually use it on low settings to conserve power, which means more shots for the battle, and the ones after it. Because while it would be impressive to fire a first volley that annihilates the first wave, you're gonna have no ammo left for the 20 waves after that. So guardsmen put it on low power settings to make sure that IF they survive the first wave, they have a chance of surviving the next.

Nebfer, on 11 June 2015 - 10:47 PM, said:

Anti Titan weapons are described as in the kiloton range, which is in the range of B-tech naval lasers.

Where? The Only weapons I could find with descriptions that indicate their power output outside of TT are:

1- The Plasma Annihilator with a power output close to that of a miniature sun, glassing massive swaths of land with one shot. This means it at least needs to flash heat a massive area to 1700 degrees Celsius (3090 F) (meaning it's output is at LEAST in the 50 mega tons range. The fact that it forms craters hundreds of meters in diameter kinda help with that)

2- The Volcano Cannon, which is a laser weapon with an output of several Terawatts, per shot. It's effect is described as "utterly vaporizing a thick hundred meter-tall iron gate as though it never existed". "slicing off the arm or leg of a Titan, or killing an enemy war engine, with a single shot". Of course You need at least 2 void shields if you want to survive that cannon.

This thing is used as a planetary defense laser, btw.

3- The weakest of the bunch is the Turbo Laser Destructor, and even when it misses you, it will kill you simply by the heat emitted when it's salvo flies by. The weapon is described as melting super heavies in one shot, and taking but a scant second to melt through their frontal armor.

Those are the only ones with any semblance of a power level description.

Then there's titan grade melta weaponry. All we know about all Melta weapons is that they heat the area they hit on a sub-atomic level, and literally melt whatever is in the area of effect. The titan versions are even more powerful.

Also, Just to be clear. I stated that you needed BT Naval weapons to punch through Titan void shields. You're confirming my statement that no BT infantry weapons can threaten Titans (while they can definitely threaten BT mechs).

Edited by IraqiWalker, 12 June 2015 - 12:23 AM.

[Azeem447]

I'M BAAAAACK!!!!

Hello all and happy to see Iraqiwalker keeping this post interesting!

I took some time to try to look into more of the Table top rules and gameplay lore in the hopes of finding something that might give me another run for if battletech would stand a chance in a Universe war.

Ever since I started this post I maintained that the battletech universe would not only stand a chance against the whole warhammer 40k universe but that it would also win.......well surprise surprise, my stance has not changed even with looking into the titans. I found most of the rules and stats for the titans in warhammer 40k table top and looked up some more stats for other factions as well.

before going on I will stress as always that these findings are stricktly based on the TABLE TOP games and NOT the lore or any lititure other than rule books and stat trees. for this reason I decided on a few rules.

Rule #1: No super weapons!
the reason for this is because especially for warhammer 40k, super weapons very so drastickly from lore to rules that it is litrally impossible to have any fair comparison what so ever other than: Role 2D6, if roll is < 8 the planet is destroyed. this doesent really make for fun game play and is there for point less.

Rule #2: Psychers will be nerfed to HELL! (big old nerf bat to the back of their heads.)
GRRR! this is again a frustrating thing to fairly compare/convert to battletech as no one will be happy with any change made. In LORE, psychers are portrayed as the most frearsome thing to encounter on the battle field next to a titan. HOWEVER! I am basing these conversions off the TABLE TOP games/rules. in the game, psychers are already nerfed to hell, in many case they are only about as scary as a man with a rocket launcher, so I will keep to this standered for their strengths.

Rule #3: Armor value will be based off of best guess size/weight comparison.
yet another feature that has NO clear guidline to it in warhammer 40k. ( im sensing a pattern here.) the best I can do is try to find some sort of scale comparison and try to be fair from their.

Rule #4: There is scale in warhammer 40k!
we do indeed have scale to warhammer 40k that makes it comparible to Battletech and gives us a start at a base line to figure out the size of most of the units.

Iraqiwalker has become someone i look forward to hearing from as he has provided excellent information and food for thought. On one of his earlier post he pointed out that warhammer is about Huge and Hugerer, he made the point that besause of this it is very difficult to find any true scale. a bolt gun for instance might be able to reach 24 inches normally but how can you tell how far that is? is it 100 yrds 1000 yrds? he believes that there is no way to figure out scale in warhammer because it is always changing.

I Must disagree 100%. there is indeed scale to be found in warhammer 40k and it can be found by comparing a titan scout Warhound to a space marine.

a space marine stands somewhere around 8-10 feet tall. i will go with 10 feet because its a nice even number. a Warhound stands at 25 meters tall, 75 feet~ ish. I grabbed some space marine models that i still have and went to one of the hobbie stores in the area. stacking 7-8 space marines on top of each other we are almost exactly at the same height as the warhound they have in the store. (ill be honest, its not perfect, the warhound is still about an inch~ish or so taller but im going with it.) this puts the space marine models at about the right scale compared to the warhound. laying the space marine done on a ruler, the model is more or less an inch long.

BINGO! SCALE! 1 inch in warhammer 40k = 10 feet! Now we....well okay.....I can now assume that the space marine will stand for a base line scale comparied to all of Warhammer 40k.

I would love to post the rest of my conversions after this scale, witch is completely supported by ALL video games made in partnership with gamesworkshop, but it is late at night for me and my thoughts are getting a little jumbled.

Ill leave you all with this though, based on the scale, warhammer 40k has vastly inferior range on averge when compared to Battletech. the only faction that really comes close is the Tau Empire. The titans do have fair range and in some cases are equal to or greater than some Mechs from battle tech. BUT! by game rules/lore, (game lore is different than actuall lore) the most you'd ever see of a titan legion on the battle field is about 4 or so, usually less than that.

In short i still stand by my claim that Battletech would win in a universal war with warhammer 40k. it would not be an easy win by any means, though the Tau would do a lot of carrying for the rest of the warhammer universe, in the end Battletech would win! they have proven time and again that they can rally against a common enemy, they adapt to new foes, tech, and tactics. warhammer 40k, does not! the only factions that can and do adapt are the Tau and the Eldar, and the Eldar are to cowardly for a stand up fight.

THIS IS BASED OFF OF TABLE TOP RULES, NOT LORE!

(lore wise warhammer 40k wins with out even trying.)

As always i look farward to what other people have to say on this topic and hope that you all enjoy this as a fun debate. please let me know what you think. especially you Iraqiwalker! ill be eagerly awaiting your response.

Edited by Azeem447, 13 June 2015 - 07:09 PM.

[The Lost Boy]

Azeem447, on 13 June 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

I'M BAAAAACK!!!!

Hello all and happy to see Iraqiwalker keeping this post interesting!

I took some time to try to look into more of the Table top rules and gameplay lore in the hopes of finding something that might give me another run for if battletech would stand a chance in a Universe war.

Ever since I started this post I maintained that the battletech universe would not only stand a chance against the whole warhammer 40k universe but that it would also win.......well surprise surprise, my stance has not changed even with looking into the titans. I found most of the rules and stats for the titans in warhammer 40k table top and looked up some more stats for other factions as well.

before going on I will stress as always that these findings are stricktly based on the TABLE TOP games and NOT the lore or any lititure other than rule books and stat trees. for this reason I decided on a few rules.

Rule #1: No super weapons!
the reason for this is because especially for warhammer 40k, super weapons very so drastickly from lore to rules that it is litrally impossible to have any fair comparison what so ever other than: Role 2D6, if roll is &lt; 8 the planet is destroyed. this doesent really make for fun game play and is there for point less.

Rule #2: Psychers will be nerfed to HELL! (big old nerf bat to the back of their heads.)
GRRR! this is again a frustrating thing to fairly compare/convert to battletech as no one will be happy with any change made. In LORE, psychers are portrayed as the most frearsome thing to encounter on the battle field next to a titan. HOWEVER! I am basing these conversions off the TABLE TOP games/rules. in the game, psychers are already nerfed to hell, in many case they are only about as scary as a man with a rocket launcher, so I will keep to this standered for their strengths.

Rule #3: Armor value will be based off of best guess size/weight comparison.
yet another feature that has NO clear guidline to it in warhammer 40k. ( im sensing a pattern here.) the best I can do is try to find some sort of scale comparison and try to be fair from their.

Rule #4: There is scale in warhammer 40k!
we do indeed have scale to warhammer 40k that makes it comparible to Battletech and gives us a start at a base line to figure out the size of most of the units.

Iraqiwalker has become someone i look forward to hearing from as he has provided excellent information and food for thought. On one of his earlier post he pointed out that warhammer is about Huge and Hugerer, he made the point that besause of this it is very difficult to find any true scale. a bolt gun for instance might be able to reach 24 inches normally but how can you tell how far that is? is it 100 yrds 1000 yrds? he believes that there is no way to figure out scale in warhammer because it is always changing.

I Must disagree 100%. there is indeed scale to be found in warhammer 40k and it can be found by comparing a titan scout Warhound to a space marine.

a space marine stands somewhere around 8-10 feet tall. i will go with 10 feet because its a nice even number. a Warhound stands at 25 meters tall, 75 feet~ ish. I grabbed some space marine models that i still have and went to one of the hobbie stores in the area. stacking 7-8 space marines on top of each other we are almost exactly at the same height as the warhound they have in the store. (ill be honest, its not perfect, the warhound is still about an inch~ish or so taller but im going with it.) this puts the space marine models at about the right scale compared to the warhound. laying the space marine done on a ruler, the model is more or less an inch long.

BINGO! SCALE! 1 inch in warhammer 40k = 10 feet! Now we....well okay.....I can now assume that the space marine will stand for a base line scale comparied to all of Warhammer 40k.

I would love to post the rest of my conversions after this scale, witch is completely supported by ALL video games made in partnership with gamesworkshop, but it is late at night for me and my thoughts are getting a little jumbled.

Ill leave you all with this though, based on the scale, warhammer 40k has vastly inferior range on averge when compared to Battletech. the only faction that really comes close is the Tau Empire. The titans do have fair range and in some cases are equal to or greater than some Mechs from battle tech. BUT! by game rules/lore, (game lore is different than actuall lore) the most you'd ever see of a titan legion on the battle field is about 4 or so, usually less than that.

In short i still stand by my claim that Battletech would win in a universal war with warhammer 40k. it would not be an easy win by any means, though the Tau would do a lot of carrying for the rest of the warhammer universe, in the end Battletech would win! they have proven time and again that they can rally against a common enemy, they adapt to new foes, tech, and tactics. warhammer 40k, does not! the only factions that can and do adapt are the Tau and the Eldar, and the Eldar are to cowardly for a stand up fight.

THIS IS BASED OFF OF TABLE TOP RULES, NOT LORE!

(lore wise warhammer 40k wins with out even trying.)

As always i look farward to what other people have to say on this topic and hope that you all enjoy this as a fun debate. please let me know what you think. especially you Iraqiwalker! ill be eagerly awaiting your response.

Im gonna call BS! You take out , #1 super-weapons, and #2 psychers, both of wich are PART OF THE TABLE TOP GAME! Sooooo take out Space Marines , Tech-Priests, teleporting, skimmers(ANTIGRAV FLYERS). And anything else you dont like to even a playing field. And as far as ADAPTING, how about the Tyrinids? They invent new species to fight the enemy based on thier DNA.

Sorry, tabletop, lore, any way you stack it 40K wins.

Edited by Lemming of the BDA, 15 June 2015 - 08:16 AM.

[The Lost Boy]

Anjian, on 03 June 2015 - 01:30 AM, said:

I remember reading that the Space Marines would chop off the testicles of their dying but most valiant soldiers in order to preserve their genetic legacy. That is just so freaking bad ass.

Is called the progenitoid gland or something, Space Marines have all,sorts of extra organs. It preserves the "gene-seed" for the Chapter.

[Lord Perversor]

Azeem447, on 13 June 2015 - 06:59 PM, said:

Rule #1: No super weapons!
the reason for this is because especially for warhammer 40k, super weapons very so drastickly from lore to rules that it is litrally impossible to have any fair comparison what so ever other than: Role 2D6, if roll is < 8 the planet is destroyed. this doesent really make for fun game play and is there for point less.

Rule #2: Psychers will be nerfed to HELL! (big old nerf bat to the back of their heads.)
GRRR! this is again a frustrating thing to fairly compare/convert to battletech as no one will be happy with any change made. In LORE, psychers are portrayed as the most frearsome thing to encounter on the battle field next to a titan. HOWEVER! I am basing these conversions off the TABLE TOP games/rules. in the game, psychers are already nerfed to hell, in many case they are only about as scary as a man with a rocket launcher, so I will keep to this standered for their strengths.

Rule #3: Armor value will be based off of best guess size/weight comparison.
yet another feature that has NO clear guidline to it in warhammer 40k. ( im sensing a pattern here.) the best I can do is try to find some sort of scale comparison and try to be fair from their.

Rule #4: There is scale in warhammer 40k!
we do indeed have scale to warhammer 40k that makes it comparible to Battletech and gives us a start at a base line to figure out the size of most of the units.

Rule 1: Infantry comes with Plasma weapons (far out superior to PPC) Canon Lasers who can be comparable to Mech lasers, and several other weapons, not even heading to the Xenos weaponry.. with the eldar carrying even portable black hole guns, and their version of the Plasma weapons that just don't generate Heat (also Haywire weapons, or Grav weapons the 1st just disable tech the seconds bend the targets the more mass they have)

Rule 2: Psychers are terryfic mostly due the way they can support the troops invisibility, extra durability, and fear to the enemy troops, there is some few powers who can deal damage and yet those are quite bland, even ignoring psychic powers BT have no chance

Rule 3: Size/weight Space marines are in fact elemental warriors, but the former have extra organs, and genetic enhancement (all ribs fused, 2x hearths can spit acid and much more) sure the elemental armor may be a bit better than the normal Space marine armor, until you start to get Terminator armour or Centurion armor (wich are comparable to walking bunkers)

Rule 4: There is Scale, sure you can choose Wraithknights, Imperial Knights and the super Heavy Tanks wich often carry weaponry designed to take down Titans like the Warhound and higher (not ******** planet destroying weapons just Heavy anty armor weapons)

The simply fact is that 40k is Sci-fy boosted to the absurdum, while BT is not and much of the weapons are just outright ******** in terms of killing power.

Void Grenades - portable Black holes
DE Void Bomb - it's used with a self containment system that limits the whole explosion in order to not cause massive damage to friendly troops
Eldar D weapons - Shooting Blackholes like nothing
Eldar monofilament - Just like shooting Webs over large areas, can't be cut and sharp enough to even cut metal
Power weapons - energy encased that can just destroy the molecular structure of anything they strike.

[Azeem447]

Actually comparing plasma weapons to ppc may have been a fair comparison except for the fact that ppc does 15 damage to all tanks/mechs at 1000 meters where as the plasma weapons have a max range of 120 meters, that's the cannon not the rifle! also the plasma cannon is weaker than the lasecannon witch, by every comparison I can make is only as strong as a medium to large laster and even the lase cannon can only reach about the same distance 120-150 meters. (OOPS! sorry just had another look at the rule book, Lase cannons do reach 150 meters!) Since the lase cannon does some where between 5-9 damage, then the plasma cannon only does 3-7 damage. the auto cannon im straight up comparing to an A.C. 5, same damage but much less range. the Assualt cannon, well this is actually prity good for its size, im calling a 4 damage but only reaches about 60~ish meters.

Now I still have to do some more research on titan weapons, but from what I could find their weapons average range is with in 300 meters, save for the volcan cannon and the um...what is it called? Vortex missle? witch have some Crazy ass ranges on those two weapons, but! two or three good weapons does not win a war, not when every single battle mech and LRM carrier is raining death on you and your shields.


Also Lemming, I am not taking out plasma weapons, im not even taking out titan weapons or void shields. even with those battletech still wins on range and damage. Im only taking out the planet buster weapons, black whole generators, and the like. as for psychers, I have not taken those out! far from it, I left them in, but only gave them the abilities they have in table top, witch is **** when compared to most of the other weapons in warhammer 40k.

also as for the tyrinids, they would have nothing new to adapt to that would make them any better, and ONE Firestarter will wipe out 2 dozen of them well before they can even get within range of their weapons. and that's just ONE Firestarter, those guys travel in Packs them selves!

Battletech fields more mechs than Warhammer does, they field more tanks than warhammer, and they field more battle armo.....oh wait, no no they don't, warhammer wins that one, but with inferior battle armor. and this is taking into considerations the map engagement size, multiply the warhammer engagement by even 10 and the battletech will field just as many if not more of everything the warhammer would bring to the field of battle.

You all have been LIED to! the warhammer 40k universe is no where near as strong as you have been lead to believe! there armor is inferior, there weapons have far less damage and range then you've been told, and there numbers are no where near what we've been told.

Even the above statement is based off the table top. Lore wise yes a lasecannon will cut a path of destruction threw 3 preditor tanks stretching 3 miles apart! (well, at least in one book, the next will have it deflected off an imp. guardian.)

Edited by Azeem447, 15 June 2015 - 12:41 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

Azeem447, on 15 June 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Actually comparing plasma weapons to ppc may have been a fair comparison except for the fact that ppc does 15 damage to all tanks/mechs at 1000 meters where as the plasma weapons have a max range of 120 meters, that's the cannon not the rifle! also the plasma cannon is weaker than the lasecannon witch, by every comparison I can make is only as strong as a medium to large laster and even the lase cannon can only reach about the same distance 120-150 meters. (OOPS! sorry just had another look at the rule book, Lase cannons do reach 150 meters!) Since the lase cannon does some where between 5-9 damage, then the plasma cannon only does 3-7 damage. the auto cannon im straight up comparing to an A.C. 5, same damage but much less range. the Assualt cannon, well this is actually prity good for its size, im calling a 4 damage but only reaches about 60~ish meters.

Now I still have to do some more research on titan weapons, but from what I could find their weapons average range is with in 300 meters, save for the volcan cannon and the um...what is it called? Vortex missle? witch have some Crazy ass ranges on those two weapons, but! two or three good weapons does not win a war, not when every single battle mech and LRM carrier is raining death on you and your shields.


Also Lemming, I am not taking out plasma weapons, im not even taking out titan weapons or void shields. even with those battletech still wins on range and damage. Im only taking out the planet buster weapons, black whole generators, and the like. as for psychers, I have not taken those out! far from it, I left them in, but only gave them the abilities they have in table top, witch is **** when compared to most of the other weapons in warhammer 40k.

also as for the tyrinids, they would have nothing new to adapt to that would make them any better, and ONE Firestarter will wipe out 2 dozen of them well before they can even get within range of their weapons. and that's just ONE Firestarter, those guys travel in Packs them selves!

Battletech fields more mechs than Warhammer does, they field more tanks than warhammer, and they field more battle armo.....oh wait, no no they don't, warhammer wins that one, but with inferior battle armor. and this is taking into considerations the map engagement size, multiply the warhammer engagement by even 10 and the battletech will field just as many if not more of everything the warhammer would bring to the field of battle.

You all have been LIED to! the warhammer 40k universe is no where near as strong as you have been lead to believe! there armor is inferior, there weapons have far less damage and range then you've been told, and there numbers are no where near what we've been told.

Even the above statement is based off the table top. Lore wise yes a lasecannon will cut a path of destruction threw 3 preditor tanks stretching 3 miles apart! (well, at least in one book, the next will have it deflected off an imp. guardian.)

Azeem, the problem is that you are not only using improperly scaled stats, and objects, but also have no basis of comparison.

First of all, you mentioned using the Space Marine models to scale things. No.1 The space marine models aren't to-scale to begin with. Stand them next to an Imperial Guardsman. They are the same exact dimensions.

Did you convert inches to hexes, or what?

As for the Lascannon, it's basurd to call a weapon with an output reaching several dozen mega watts of power comparable to an LL. The LL is significantly weaker than that. No jokes.

What you're porting into BT isn't 40K. It's a nerfed version that doesn't resemble it at all.

Plus, you really didn't solve the scale problem by comparing model sizes to one another. That doesn't solve the issue of 6 inches being 6 meters on 1 map, and 500 meters on the other.

Another thing you have gotten wrong is the numbers. BT does not field anywhere near enough mechs, and tanks to compare to 40K. Not when a single regiment can field hundreds to thousands of 100 ton tanks.

Even if we look at it in a simplified manner:

All of BT occurs in the Inner Sphere. Which is just 3500 planets. It's barely a segmentum, and I mean BARELY. The IS still struggles to figure out how to do Endo-Steel, and DHS, and while we joke about technological development in the Imperium being at a snail's pace, it's still thousands of years more advanced, and on any given day out produces the entire IS by at least 3 orders of magnitude.

Now I can't convince you otherwise, nor do I want to force you into it, but your conversions aren't really representative of 40K. Not when you nerf everything to the ground, so BT can stand a chance. A Guardsman lasgun is actually as strong as a Medium Laser, or at least an uptuned small laser.

TL;DR: What you have there is not 40K. It's BT dressed up as 40K, and still nerfed.

[The Lost Boy]

Azeem447, on 15 June 2015 - 12:21 PM, said:

Actually comparing plasma weapons to ppc may have been a fair comparison except for the fact that ppc does 15 damage to all tanks/mechs at 1000 meters where as the plasma weapons have a max range of 120 meters, that's the cannon not the rifle! also the plasma cannon is weaker than the lasecannon witch, by every comparison I can make is only as strong as a medium to large laster and even the lase cannon can only reach about the same distance 120-150 meters. (OOPS! sorry just had another look at the rule book, Lase cannons do reach 150 meters!) Since the lase cannon does some where between 5-9 damage, then the plasma cannon only does 3-7 damage. the auto cannon im straight up comparing to an A.C. 5, same damage but much less range. the Assualt cannon, well this is actually prity good for its size, im calling a 4 damage but only reaches about 60~ish meters.

Now I still have to do some more research on titan weapons, but from what I could find their weapons average range is with in 300 meters, save for the volcan cannon and the um...what is it called? Vortex missle? witch have some Crazy ass ranges on those two weapons, but! two or three good weapons does not win a war, not when every single battle mech and LRM carrier is raining death on you and your shields.


Also Lemming, I am not taking out plasma weapons, im not even taking out titan weapons or void shields. even with those battletech still wins on range and damage. Im only taking out the planet buster weapons, black whole generators, and the like. as for psychers, I have not taken those out! far from it, I left them in, but only gave them the abilities they have in table top, witch is **** when compared to most of the other weapons in warhammer 40k.

also as for the tyrinids, they would have nothing new to adapt to that would make them any better, and ONE Firestarter will wipe out 2 dozen of them well before they can even get within range of their weapons. and that's just ONE Firestarter, those guys travel in Packs them selves!

Battletech fields more mechs than Warhammer does, they field more tanks than warhammer, and they field more battle armo.....oh wait, no no they don't, warhammer wins that one, but with inferior battle armor. and this is taking into considerations the map engagement size, multiply the warhammer engagement by even 10 and the battletech will field just as many if not more of everything the warhammer would bring to the field of battle.

You all have been LIED to! the warhammer 40k universe is no where near as strong as you have been lead to believe! there armor is inferior, there weapons have far less damage and range then you've been told, and there numbers are no where near what we've been told.

Even the above statement is based off the table top. Lore wise yes a lasecannon will cut a path of destruction threw 3 preditor tanks stretching 3 miles apart! (well, at least in one book, the next will have it deflected off an imp. guardian.)

You need to take off the rose colored glasses before you make youself sound more stupid. In 40k they have WALKING BUILDINGS. And not buildings the size of a house. Small skyskraperish things. Both armies have men, tanks, missiles, Armored men, armored super men. One side has little stompy mechs and then skips the BT sized ones and goes right to the large building sized ones. BT humans know how thier tech works, but its fragile and hard to make/maintain. The Imperium has forgotton more than the IS and Clans will ever hope to know. Whole planets that are factories, whole civilizations under arms. Put an Orion on tabletop pretty fearsome its got stuff on it. A typical balancing feature is the bigger the stuff is the more points it costs. So put ANY Battle Mech and give it a point value. There are always specialized units waiting enmasse to take it down. Wake up smell the brew an know in your heart of hearts that 37000 years is a tech gap that CANT be bridged by the IS and Clans who still cling to the belief that there are RULES to war.

[Vilemind]

Actually there is suggested scale in 40K in canon tabletop, also in Warhammer Fantasy.
It helps to have been playing for 25 years and know the older books.

In WFB and WH40K an inch is specifically stated in the older books as being 2 metres vertically and 10 metres horizontally.
This is easy to see in WFB where a bow has a range of 24" or 240 metres.

In addition in WH40K Rogue Trader plus compendium etc there were rules for shooting up to 10 times a weapons base range. So a bolter has a confirmed range of 2400 metres, but an accurate range of 240 metres. This isn't too far off modern infantry weapons, where for instance a Steyr can shoot over 1000 metres but has an individual fire range under most military SOPs of 300 or 400 metres.

Imperial Guardsmen are also not standard humans. The fluff makes it clear that they are recruited from the toughest of the tough. Normal human stats are all 2s. Guard are the top 5-10% of PDF recruits. The fluff makes it clear they are much larger and tougher than normal humans and heal much faster.

As far as tehc vs tech, 40K has the advantage due to handwavium.
Remember that Terminators are able to survive hits from anything up to orbital/destroyer weapons, power weapons destabilise the molecular structure of the item they hit rendering it soft as cheese (that is the canon description and why power fists are the top tier weapon - larger field, more disruption).
Hell there is fluff of terminators being stepped on by titans and surviving - and this is old pre-power increase fluff.
Squat exo-armour was less efficient than terminator armour and was designed for working IN plasma reactors.

The appropriate comparison for mechs is knights, as mentioned before.
40K has become consistently more mechanised as the model kits are released. When I started playing hardly anyone had any vehicles except dreadnoughts.
Many newer 40K armies are heavily mechanised.
Fields and invulnerable saves are game changers.
Melta and plasma are game changers.
Even avoiding any fluff, the comparison isn't there.

In 40K humans are the dominant species in the galaxy. They have over a million worlds in the imperium.
In BT humans are the only species and still have trouble.

As far as nukes - in Rogue Trader at least all troops tended to have radiation grenades available.
If you really want insane nastiness, read the three original books. Power boards that moved 60" per turn. Jet bikes moving 72" per turn.
Sustained fire that allowed some weapons to kill dozens of enemy soldiers in a single burst - I think I managed 14 space marines with a shuriken cannon on one turn at one point.
Mole mortars, termites and mole transporters.
For scale, Epic would be a better comparison to BT tabletop I think.
However in a table top battle it will be (or should be) 50/50. Why? Equal points/BV.
Which IP could have the tougher units on the table? 40K without a doubt.
Who would win? If the points are calculated correctly, the better general :-)

[Azeem447]

Wow! Never heard of there being any suggested scale in any of the warhammer games, but then again I only played them for about 5 years, not 25 years. (how did you afford it for so long?) ;-)

that conversion would finally bring warhammer 40k ranges up to par with battletech. as I said the only comparison I could do was with some known dimensions and just try to fill in the gaps from there.

now as far as damage is concerned I cannont concied that a imperial guards lasegun is as strong as a medium laser. In every rule book I read those things are only just better than Ak-47's. Bolt guns are claimed to either be RPG's, or grenade Launchers, either way they still reach the same damage as an srm. And then their is still the question on armor. I get that some books claim plasmas and lasecannons all reach ubserd watts but that is certainly NOT well represented in the game when my space marine servive plasma cannons and Lasecannon litrally every game.

Oh! and LEMMING, there is no nead to be so hostel in your posts on here. I more than welcome criticism, but you don't have to try to bully me around. Iraqiwalker says basically the same thing as you but doesn't try to shove it done my throat. Oh yea and I welcome his criticism as it makes me take a step back every time to try to find a way to fix my MISTAKES!

Edited by Azeem447, 16 June 2015 - 10:51 AM.

[darqsyde]

Azeem, The flaw in your comparison is starting at the mid/top end of the damage scales. The best place to start is at the bottom, in the areas where you KNOW things can be directly compared.

For damage comparison you should start at the damage an average human can do with fists or a standard knife. This will begin to provide a basic level of damage and relative scaling.

As for weapon ranges, a good place to look for actual 40K range values would be Dark Heresy. For instance, a Lasgun(DHv1) has a basic range of 100m(full damage), 400m Maximum Range. A Lascannon has ranges of 300m/1.2km. From these examples you could easily extrapolate the ranges of the Vehicle scale weapons.

The trick to translating very different gaming properties to to start at the simplest to compare systems, to create a baseline. Then work your way up the scales.

Another thing to remember is that "everything published for 40K is canon", no matter the source.

Another interesting read, is the article on "Movie Marines", in WD300, where the designers discuss the why SMs on the tabletop are relatively weak compared to there counterparts in the lore. (Hint-game balance).

As for who would win?

B-Tech would be reasonably certain of taking the IG. And then the SpessMAHrines drop. Or a Titan Legion. Unless the Imperial Navy decides on an Orbital Bombardment. Or the local Inquisitor decides to Exterminatus the planet.

[DONTOR]

Sorry but 1 Warlord titan just stepped on your lance of Atlas then used a Turbo laser to take out your entire drop ship in 1 shot destroying another 4 lances, he then preceeded to destroy then entire mech faclity by itself with a chain fist because he is 300' tall and your tallest mech is lke 50'. A Warlord titan is roughly 1000 tons aswell... so yaaaaa

Its not even a contest, 40K weapons are on a scale that is literally unimagineable. the AC20 is like 240mm or so. while Imperial battleships have Cannons that are 240M in width...