387 replies to this topic

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

I'd agree if HBK-4Js didn't outlaunch them. It's the one time I will recommend LRM10s, lol. Plus, Hunchbacks > KTos, so there's that.

The Hunchy is good but a bit slow, plus the KTO is a lot more tanky than it gets credit for.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 30 May 2015 - 07:51 AM, said:

Have we reached the point in saying that the 4J is overquirked?

Even the Trebuchet should be getting that kind of love, but due to being generally bad.... the Hunchback has always been reasonably durable if you have any semblance of skill (especially with quirks).

I'd say it toes the line, but no. The general truth is that because LRMs are so dang inefficient, and in many cases BAD, they need to be quirked heavier in many cases, than direct fire. And LRM10s are, in general, one of the worst racks in the game. Thankfully we have the IS LRM20 to take the crown of worst missile launcher, ever.

Mind you, if we were in a game with reasonable quirks on Thunderbolts, and in other categories, then maybe the HBKs would need a reduction.

As of right now, the sole HBK I will still categorically state as overquirked is the GridIron.

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 07:53 AM, said:

The Hunchy is good but a bit slow, plus the KTO is a lot more tanky than it gets credit for.

Still looks like a MechaChimpanzee

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

Still looks like a MechaChimpanzee

Know what you get when you take a KTO 18 and trade 1 launcher and some ammo for ecm and JJs?

A Griffin 2N

[Bishop Steiner]

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Know what you get when you take a KTO 18 and trade 1 launcher and some ammo for ecm and JJs?

A Griffin 2N

which looks dead sexy.

[Soul Tribunal]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:38 AM, said:

At this, I suppose, the question becomes, are Assaults really optimal in that role to begin with? I know I've run a Battlemaster and a Warhawk with LRMs, and slightly lighter, an LRM40 Orion. But the question comes down, at least for "serious" play..... is that the optimal use role for an Assault, or should it be in a position where it's using it's firepower AND armor for the good of the team?

I'm still undecided, but am starting to lean to LRMs being a better investment on lighter chassis, that can change fire positions more rapidly, bring less armor and firepower to the fight to begin with, etc. I'd rather See Stalkers and Atlases in the thick of it, personally. Awesomes.... well.... those are a tougher call....because most times, I'd rather just see a different chassis, period, lol.

I am torn by this for a few reasons (though they in themselves might not be right).
There are a lot of Maps where having some LRM tubes on your Assaults is probably a good choice. With the sole Exception of my DDC (Since ECM allows it to get close) all of my Atlas chassis have LRM tubes. It allows me, while I walk ponderously towards engagement range, to provide some supression and damage.
I don't boat them, but I have them onboard. Most of my Assault chassis use them. I find it allows contribution by me no matter what map, and where the enemy is. It also serves the double purpose of making a lot of players stay behind cover until I close the range enough to bring my true firepower (AC20, 4ML's) into range.
One shouldn't waste his assault chassis on LRM's alone, but having them with makes the chassis in itself more flexible.
At least for me,

-ST

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Quote

I admit I have seen some bad LRM players who just sit way back waiting for his teams to lock targets for them

which is exactly what support fire mechs are supposed to do -.-

[Deathlike]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 07:57 AM, said:

I'd say it toes the line, but no. The general truth is that because LRMs are so dang inefficient, and in many cases BAD, they need to be quirked heavier in many cases, than direct fire. And LRM10s are, in general, one of the worst racks in the game. Thankfully we have the IS LRM20 to take the crown of worst missile launcher, ever.

I think the LRM10 is fine, and so is the LRM15 (all relatively speaking). LRM20s? "lol ok"

Quote

Mind you, if we were in a game with reasonable quirks on Thunderbolts, and in other categories, then maybe the HBKs would need a reduction.

I think the Thunderbolts are OK, but I haven't quite figured out if the Thunderwub is that "OP" in the context of things. There are still flaws in the mech, despite having somewhat crazy quirks.

Quote

As of right now, the sole HBK I will still categorically state as overquirked is the GridIron.

I doubt it.. if I'd see more of that elsewhere... I would normally agree. I simply don't see it very often at all... and that has less to do with requiring MC to acquire it. I see more of the Misery than I do the Grid Iron.... to clarify.

Edited by Deathlike, 30 May 2015 - 08:11 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Soul Tribunal, on 30 May 2015 - 08:03 AM, said:

I am torn by this for a few reasons (though they in themselves might not be right).
There are a lot of Maps where having some LRM tubes on your Assaults is probably a good choice. With the sole Exception of my DDC (Since ECM allows it to get close) all of my Atlas chassis have LRM tubes. It allows me, while I walk ponderously towards engagement range, to provide some supression and damage.
I don't boat them, but I have them onboard. Most of my Assault chassis use them. I find it allows contribution by me no matter what map, and where the enemy is. It also serves the double purpose of making a lot of players stay behind cover until I close the range enough to bring my true firepower (AC20, 4ML's) into range.
One shouldn't waste his assault chassis on LRM's alone, but having them with makes the chassis in itself more flexible.
At least for me,

-ST

Very much this. I probably should have been more concise in my statement.

For instance, I don't care for sword and board, and I hate (bad reason for it, but there it is) how my Zeus looks without missiles in the arm. A single Missile Slot is wasted with SRMs and SSRMs. Thus I slapped a single LRM15 launcher on my ZEU-6S. I do the bulk of my work with my AC10 and 4x MPL, but that LRM rack allows me to reach out and contribute something, in situation I otherwise might not. Plus even a single rack has a habit of making most Lights break off once they are painted.

As supplemental weapons, they have their place. Mystatement is more to the dedicated LRM60-100 "Boats" out there. They take a chassis designed to tank damage...then park it in the rear, and leave the actual tanking to much lighter chassis generally not optimal for that role. THIS is where I do think an argument could be made. Not necessarily so strong as to call it a waste of a slot.... but sometimes, I feel it comes close.

Simply because it's a bad use for the inherent traits of an Assault Mech.

Deathlike, on 30 May 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

I think the LRM10 is fine, and so is the LRM15 (all relatively speaking). LRM20s? "lol ok"




I think the Thunderbolts are OK, but I haven't quite figured out if the Thunderwub is that "OP" in the context of things. There are still flaws in the mech, despite having somewhat crazy quirks.




I doubt it.. if I'd see more of that elsewhere... I would normally agree. I simply don't see it very often at all... and that has less to do with requiring MC to acquire it. I see more of the Misery than I do the Grid Iron.... to clarify.

LRM5 and 15 seem to be the most efficient. LRM10 is almost always better swapped by 2 LRM5, unless hardpoints are lacking, in which case, in most mechs 45 tons and up, you are better off with a LRM15, as it is the minimum size able to consistently defeat AMS, in most cases. LRM10s tend to be in that limbo of almost effective...but not quite there, which is why I only use them on my HBK-4J, as the RoF more than compensates.

LRM20s are just BAD.

[Johny Rocket]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 08:02 AM, said:

which looks dead sexy.

Lol
the Griff 1N and SDH 2k do the 3xlrm10 thing pretty good to, faster and with JJs, Not hating on the Hunchy but I never wanted to play the rest of them to get Elite on the 4J, I did like playing it but sold it cash and the mechbay.

[MischiefSC]

I dislike LRMs because indirect fire is a **** mechanic in any form or function for this kind of game. Trying to keep LRMs with indirect fire is the stupid **** mechanic that PGI has decided to give 50 other broken mechanics, from what they did to ECM and everything else, to offset in their aggressive system of 'introduce broken idea to fix broken idea so they sorta kind balance out when the stars align sometimes' approach to game balance.

However you don't be a **** to other players like that. You just don't. No good time, no good reason. A LRM boater can GIT GUD or even just be playing an LRM boat for giggles. An ******* is still an ******* without therapy.

[Bishop Steiner]

Deathlike, on 30 May 2015 - 08:11 AM, said:

I think the LRM10 is fine, and so is the LRM15 (all relatively speaking). LRM20s? "lol ok"




I think the Thunderbolts are OK, but I haven't quite figured out if the Thunderwub is that "OP" in the context of things. There are still flaws in the mech, despite having somewhat crazy quirks.




I doubt it.. if I'd see more of that elsewhere... I would normally agree. I simply don't see it very often at all... and that has less to do with requiring MC to acquire it. I see more of the Misery than I do the Grid Iron.... to clarify.

A large part of that is MEdiums are still the hardest chassis to use well. Don't get lagshield like Lights, don't have crazy guns and armor of Assaults and Heavies, but often stuck with speeds similar to Heavies.

Add in the general reputation of HBKs for fragility, and the paywall? If people are going to spend money, it would be on a Misery, which has none of those issues, and which will still be good no matter the meta or quirk changes.

A mech doesn't have to be super common to be overquirked. And most of the Medium Quirk Humpers seem to lean on the WVRs. Go really read the GI quirks, and if possible, play one for a bit. That MG Gauss is stupid crazy, and the fact it can use the AC20 or ac10 with about 90% the efficacy of my 4G or 4H after quirks? Nuts. You are talking a 67% total cooldown on the Gauss of a fully equipped and skilled GI. SIXTY. SEVEN. PERCENT. Cooldown. On a dang near hitscan PP-FLD weapon with the longest range in the game. It can fire, with charge, EVERY 2 seconds.

Tractor Joe, on 30 May 2015 - 08:17 AM, said:

Lol
the Griff 1N and SDH 2k do the 3xlrm10 thing pretty good to, faster and with JJs, Not hating on the Hunchy but I never wanted to play the rest of them to get Elite on the 4J, I did like playing it but sold it cash and the mechbay.

their 3x LRM10 actually put out less DPS than the 2x LRM10 on the hunchy. I've done the math. Viva la quirks.

[Joseph Mallan]

I see differently.

This is supposed to be The Clan Invasion Scenarios. which is playing out battles from a fictional war. In war you have front and second line equipment.

Missiles are not front line toys. Deploying them as such is bad strategy.

[Bishop Steiner]

MischiefSC, on 30 May 2015 - 08:18 AM, said:

I dislike LRMs because indirect fire is a **** mechanic in any form or function for this kind of game. Trying to keep LRMs with indirect fire is the stupid **** mechanic that PGI has decided to give 50 other broken mechanics, from what they did to ECM and everything else, to offset in their aggressive system of 'introduce broken idea to fix broken idea so they sorta kind balance out when the stars align sometimes' approach to game balance.

However you don't be a **** to other players like that. You just don't. No good time, no good reason. A LRM boater can GIT GUD or even just be playing an LRM boat for giggles. An ******* is still an ******* without therapy.

So keeping the weapon using the mechanic it was designed to be used as, indirect fire support..and one that is legit in any combat game is a "crap mechanic"?

I guess ARMA shouldn't allow mortars or Grenade launchers, either? I don't really care if you like them or not, but I find your logic on it,........ fuzzy.

[xX PUG Xx]

InspectorG, on 30 May 2015 - 07:10 AM, said:

I think you expect a bit too much out of Pugs.

Now, in my experience with Pugs, that criteria is about 30% likely after 10pm EST.

Before that time, its bads trying to find reverse on their steering wheels.

Oh aye, could you sound anymore like the stereotypical self-centric egotistical American? So there is no players anywhere in the world capable of living up to your uber-leet level of gameplay GGClose indeed.

[Vanguard319]

Shredhead, on 29 May 2015 - 11:01 AM, said:

"LRMs here hold locks" is the sign of a bad player. It is not my duty to hold any locks, I do what I have to do to stay alive and kill the enemy. This does not involve running after mechs that might lead me into a bad position, this does not involve to hold a lock on a minor threat if an even bigger one appears in my sights and it most certainly not involves for me to risk my arse while you sit far away from the action so your precious paintjob doesn't get scratched!
Your place as a LRM boat is 100 meters behind the line and your task is to get your own freaking locks!
Deal with it!

LRMs are standoff weapons, and work best with a spotter. If you aren't spotting when the opportunity is available to you, you are hurting that LRM boat's effectiveness. Painting targets is good teamwork, especially if the boat is 100m behind you, but can't get a visual on the intended target.

[Dimento Graven]

xX PUG Xx, on 30 May 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:

Oh aye, could you sound anymore like the stereotypical self-centric egotistical American? So there is no players anywhere in the world capable of living up to your uber-leet level of gameplay GGClose indeed.

I got bored with this thread when people wouldn't stay focused on the real issue we should all be talking about:

Regardless of the benefits it provides some unskilled lazy LRM pilot, it's just a REALLY good idea to target what you're shooting at, so that YOU YOURSELF can improve your own game play by taking THOUGHTFUL aim at the enemies weak locations, which will show up ONCE YOU TARGET HIM.

The real problem is the VAST majority of players practicing the "spray and pray" methodology of battle. "Just hit 'em enough times, he'll fall down..."

Ug.

HOWEVER, after your comment I just have to point out, the 'stereotypical self-centric egotism' of the average citizen of the United States is not without some merit, so get over your jealousy and learn to work with us instead of hating us, then bitching we aren't helping you enough when times get tough...

[Joseph Mallan]

Vanguard319, on 30 May 2015 - 08:37 AM, said:

LRMs are standoff weapons, and work best with a spotter. If you aren't spotting when the opportunity is available to you, you are hurting that LRM boat's effectiveness. Painting targets is good teamwork, especially if the boat is 100m behind you, but can't get a visual on the intended target.

I never heard a Lawman complain when 40+ missiles started to rain when he called for help in D7. Unless they rained down on him.

[Soul Tribunal]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 08:16 AM, said:

Very much this. I probably should have been more concise in my statement. For instance, I don't care for sword and board, and I hate (bad reason for it, but there it is) how my Zeus looks without missiles in the arm. A single Missile Slot is wasted with SRMs and SSRMs. Thus I slapped a single LRM15 launcher on my ZEU-6S. I do the bulk of my work with my AC10 and 4x MPL, but that LRM rack allows me to reach out and contribute something, in situation I otherwise might not. Plus even a single rack has a habit of making most Lights break off once they are painted. As supplemental weapons, they have their place. Mystatement is more to the dedicated LRM60-100 "Boats" out there. They take a chassis designed to tank damage...then park it in the rear, and leave the actual tanking to much lighter chassis generally not optimal for that role. THIS is where I do think an argument could be made. Not necessarily so strong as to call it a waste of a slot.... but sometimes, I feel it comes close. Simply because it's a bad use for the inherent traits of an Assault Mech. LRM5 and 15 seem to be the most efficient. LRM10 is almost always better swapped by 2 LRM5, unless hardpoints are lacking, in which case, in most mechs 45 tons and up, you are better off with a LRM15, as it is the minimum size able to consistently defeat AMS, in most cases. LRM10s tend to be in that limbo of almost effective...but not quite there, which is why I only use them on my HBK-4J, as the RoF more than compensates. LRM20s are just BAD.

No worries Bishop, I just wanted to add a little more depth and my own beliefs really.
I do get what you are saying and I agree. I don't want to see an AS7-S with 4 x LRM15's sitting back at base, on any map.
But if you can run a decent Mixed loadout, not boating any one thing, you can be effective all around.

My mechs, are run like swiss army knives. A tool for everything.

-ST

[Zolaz]

I hope everyone reported the LRM player who quit without participating in the drop. Getting saddled with disconnects is bad enough, but having pilots quit on your team without playing is against Terms of Service.

[Joseph Mallan]

Dimento Graven, on 30 May 2015 - 08:40 AM, said:

I got bored with this thread when people wouldn't stay focused on the real issue we should all be talking about:

Regardless of the benefits it provides some unskilled lazy LRM pilot, it's just a REALLY good idea to target what you're shooting at, so that YOU YOURSELF can improve your own game play by taking THOUGHTFUL aim at the enemies weak locations, which will show up ONCE YOU TARGET HIM.

The real problem is the VAST majority of players practicing the "spray and pray" methodology of battle. "Just hit 'em enough times, he'll fall down..."

Ug.

HOWEVER, after your comment I just have to point out, the 'stereotypical self-centric egotism' of the average citizen of the United States is not without some merit, so get over your jealousy and learn to work with us instead of hating us, then bitching we aren't helping you enough when times get tough...

Quote

Allan Quatermain: Now, would you like to learn to shoot?
Tom Sawyer: I can already.
Allan Quatermain: Oh, I saw. Very American. Fire enough bullets and hope to hit the target.

The M-16 had to be given a 3 round burst mode cause to many soldiers were spraying and preying. It is Standard Military Operation to put ordinance on the target till it stops twitching. Learn to fight.