387 replies to this topic

[rolly]

TheStrider, on 29 May 2015 - 12:35 PM, said:

I haven't read the whole thread. Nor will I likely revisit it. I'm just going to say my peace.


I don't understand the hostility.

I have an LRM boat. I will call myself out at the start of a match, usually with a bit of humor which I find helps... I am relaying information to the team which will assist us in winning. Occasionally I'll get a response from a light carrying Narc, and both of us will now performing better because of it.

Why do people assume I won't try to get my own locks? I do.

Why do people assume I won't keep up with the 'mob'? I do.

Finally, why do people assume I won't dish out my weight class worth of damage in a match? I do, and then some.

Because its easier for people to generalize based on their own personal viewpoint and assumptions about their others than consider there is more than one way to down a mech whether directly or indirectly.

[Bishop Steiner]

nehebkau, on 29 May 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

I am likely to respond with "get your own" because for every excellent pilot I have had a match with I've had matches with 199 bad ones.

FTFY

Because the truth is, for every good pilot out there in any type of mech, there are dozens upon dozens of bad ones.

[rolly]

Here we go. Locks.

[Lugh]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 12:46 PM, said:

FTFY

Because the truth is, for every good pilot out there in any type of mech, there are dozens upon dozens of bad ones.

And the guy that is still learning his stuff and things after a long absence, but I get better

[The Mech behind you]

I had a match today where my team made fun of our HBG-4J. Our team was about to lose so they typed stuff like how much a LRM boat sucks etc... At the end he outdamaged anyone of us by far (he had >600 dmg). On the other hand I have seen plenty of 100t mechs ending a match with less than 100 dmg ...like there's one in every match

And then why would someone not lock a target? I do it every time because of the target data. I don't want to chew through 150 points of armor and structure because I wasn't aware of that red ST on that XL engine mech.

[Roadkill]

Zeusus, on 29 May 2015 - 11:02 AM, said:

Well first off the guy shouldn't have actually disconnected, that was a disservice. Ignore the fool telling him to disco. Use what weapons you want, of you aren't doing competitive it doesn't matter.

Secondly If you are packing LRMs you shouldn't require locks from us as you should be in the pack and able to get your own, not hanging out in the back. Which ties into my next point well.

Thirdly I know I get annoyed by LRM boats complaining about me not holding locks. If I am not it is because I can't see the enemy, I'm not gonna suicide for you. If I am holding a lock I am brawling. Get over here and back me up, I'll be your meat shield but you should be no more than 300m from the enemy. Otherwise you are wasting ammo.

This. All three points.

Generally speaking, LRMs aren't a great weapon. You can make them work, and you can make them work well, but it requires effort and, yes, skill. A really good LRM boat pilot can wreak havoc with the enemy's coordination, and in some cases can also do a pretty good job of carrying. Good LRM boats bring their own BAP and TAG (except for the A1, which can't) and get their own locks so that their teammates don't have to tank for them.

A pilot who drops into a match and immediately says "hold locks please" is not one of those pilots. They're basically advertising that they have no intention of actually supporting the team, and instead would rather just sit back behind a hill and lob LRMs blindly at whatever happens to have a red Dorito over it. Half of them don't even watch for the reticle flash to tell them whether or not their blindly-fired LRMs are hitting anything. So yeah, pretty much a waste of space.

[Hit the Deck]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 12:23 PM, said:

Laser kill faster, meaning the other team damages you less, meaning it doesn't come down to 2 mechs.

You deal less damage, but kills are precise, and you don't vomit 400 damage on a single mech without even killing it.

As has been mentioned several times before, I consider LRM to be support weapon. Not everything is judged from its efficiency (damage needed to incapacitate something). Different things have different merits. Remember that "Post your most efficient mech thread?". There's Firestater and there are other 'mechs with different roles. Not every weapon should be like a Gauss Rifle.

[Mcgral18]

Lugh, on 29 May 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

incorrect. properly utilized and supported LRMs are still devastating. Most of you mouth breathers can't figure out it requires teamwork to do it and this is why you fail.

And Bads don't realise other options are considerably better.


Please, git gud, Terribad.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 12:25 PM, said:

you also can't lend damage to a teammate out of LoS with Lasers, like getting that Firestarter that is coursing your friendly DWF, etc.

Properly used, there are pros and cons for both approaches.

Being out of position was the bad thing. Either the whale goofed up and got caught out of position, or the team left him.

Lugh, on 29 May 2015 - 12:44 PM, said:

incorrect. properly utilized and supported LRMs are still devastating. Most of you mouth breathers can't figure out it requires teamwork to do it and this is why you fail.

No, most of us can. If I'm solo queue, then my LRM Cats and Doges do well. If I'm group queue, then I don't do as well because I'm usually fighting people that know how to counter LRMs.

The thing is, is that all too often the guy saying "hold locks" is in an under-engined mech so he can fit more missiles. So when I glance at the minimap, there's that one arrow 3 grids away from the rest of us turfing his missiles into walls, buildings, etc regardless of us having locks.

Those guys are as useful as the dual Gauss K2 "going off to snipe." They're out of position and they aren't actually helping the team out.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 11:55 AM, said:

sounds like a good Light or fast Medium Mech jock mentality to have. What boggles my mind are the number of Lights who are in a death circle outside LoS, 7-800 meters away who won't try to hold a lock so their team can help them. Forget your personal epeen, get that enemy dead fast, so we can get back to killing the rest of their team.

Because if there is known LRM boat on the team, having a lock on your opponent in a light mech knife fight hurts you as much as him because the 80+ missiles coming in are hitting the both of you. You should also be targeting the legs of enemy lights, which a good light doesn't need to have a constant read-out of to know which leg to shoot.

[masCh]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 12:56 PM, said:

And Bads don't realise other options are considerably better.


Please, git gud, Terribad.

What makes you think bads do better with pulse lasers?

Do you think you are a better player? Where can I verify?

[Mcgral18]

masCh, on 29 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

What makes you think bads do better with pulse lasers?

Do you think you are a better player? Where can I verify?

He was being an *******, so I treating him like an *******.


Anyone competent can do better with direct fire than LRMs. Even damage can be better if the other team isn't incompetent.

Against Bads, you'll rack up lots of damage. Against competent players, you'll ruin some nice buildings.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Scarlett Johan, on 29 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

Being out of position was the bad thing. Either the whale goofed up and got caught out of position, or the team left him.

Or it's later in the match, and you only have a few left, and not cohesive battle lines. And sorry Johan, but in PUG play people find themselves out of position all the time. Whether through a moments inattention on their part, or an idiot team doing a NASCAR leaving it behind.

There are also plenty of maps so cluttered, that even if you are IN position, you may not have a valid LoS for direct ifre (think Veridian Bog) but someone else does. Being able to still bring mass fire on that enemy DWF is pretty handy, and something you can't do with direct fire, without leaving your own place in the battle line.

As the rest of my post noted, there are pros and cons to all weapons, and whilst you may cry "situational" every battle is made of hundred of such situations, strung together. The truly good players are the ones who can read them as they unfold, and react, accordingly, regardless of weapon system.

And this is from a guy who only has 2 LRMcentric mechs (and a handful packing a single launcher for various reasons)

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 01:12 PM, said:

He was being an *******, so I treating him like an *******.


Anyone competent can do better with direct fire than LRMs. Even damage can be better if the other team isn't incompetent.

Against Bads, you'll rack up lots of damage. Against competent players, you'll ruin some nice buildings.

getting rather worked up, aren't you?

[Jman5]

I love these LRM debates. If you do low damage and die it's because LRMs suck. If you do high damage it's because of inefficient damage spread.

It's impossible to argue with these people that LRM mechs can be any good because no matter how well or poorly you do it's used to justify why they think LRMs are bad. It's funny how no one applies this same logic to any other weapon type.

Edited by Jman5, 29 May 2015 - 01:17 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jman5, on 29 May 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

I love these LRM debates. If you do low damage and die it's because LRMs suck. If you do high damage it's because of inefficient damage spread.

It's impossible to argue with these people that LRM mechs can be any good because no matter how well or poorly you do it's used to justify why they think LRMs are bad.

exactly this.

Confirmation bias worn on their sleeve like a badge of honor.

I've been through every permutation of "this is bad and makes you bad so you should feel bad" and somehow seem to manage to be an exception to the rule in virtually every case. Odd that.

Maybe it's a sign of inflexible mindsets?

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 29 May 2015 - 01:18 PM.

[masCh]

Jman5, on 29 May 2015 - 01:16 PM, said:

I love these LRM debates. If you do low damage and die it's because LRMs suck. If you do high damage it's because of inefficient damage spread.

If you do high damage and fair number of kills it's because the enemy team was terribad.

(Its not as if you can pick what the enemy should bring to the match).

[Mcgral18]

masCh, on 29 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

What makes you think bads do better with pulse lasers?

Do you think you are a better player? Where can I verify?

I've also scored #1 on a chassis tourney?

The poor unquirked Nopeva.

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

getting rather worked up, aren't you?

Just getting tired of all the fucktards that have been on the forum lately.

I'm not going to like the Steam launch...

Edited by Mcgral18, 29 May 2015 - 01:19 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

Mcgral18, on 29 May 2015 - 10:58 AM, said:

Having a LRM centric build is already being down a useful player. They are terribly inefficient weapons that are so easy to completely neuter. They often can't keep up with the deathball, and I'm not about to kill myself trying to support him, while he can't even damage the enemy. Down a player, without saying a single thing. I won't insult them when asking for locks; I'll just ignore them. I lock targets when I shoot them. I will not not get locks out of spite, but I won't stop torso twisting so he can pad his stats with useless damage. They are generally a waste of a player slot.

My Hunchback -4J averaging 458 per game, K/D 3.29 LRM10 +artemis, Tag, mlx3

Damn what does a person have to do, to not be a wasted slot, I see half the team regularly failing to do half that good with direct fire weapons, and i'm not talking the lowest match making pool either..

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

masCh, on 29 May 2015 - 01:08 PM, said:

What makes you think bads do better with pulse lasers?

They often don't. Which is why most of us wish that LRMs were fundamentally changed to be better weapon systems. LRM's in MW2, 3, and 4 were fundamentally different than LRMs in MWO. LRMs in MW4 actually had a place in comp play because they were good weapon systems.

My biggest complaints:
-their spammability
-their horrid damage
-their horrid pathing
-indirect fire mechanic

[Mcgral18]

Cathy, on 29 May 2015 - 01:19 PM, said:

My Hunchback -4J averaging 458 per game, K/D 3.29 LRM10 +artemis, Tag, mlx3

Damn what does a person have to do, to not be a wasted slot, I see half the team regularly failing to do half that good with direct fire weapons, and i'm not talking the lowest match making pool either..

So a Super quirk robot that is not a slow as balls LRM assault and can actually pull it's weight?

Fine by me.


PUG life is always half Terribads. Well, perhaps 60%. Then occasionally just a quarter of the team, or in those absolutely terribad roflstomps a full 10 can be Bad.

It doesn't really matter what your Elo is when the buckets range 1000.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Bishop Steiner, on 29 May 2015 - 01:15 PM, said:

There are also plenty of maps so cluttered, that even if you are IN position, you may not have a valid LoS for direct ifre (think Veridian Bog) but someone else does. Being able to still bring mass fire on that enemy DWF is pretty handy, and something you can't do with direct fire, without leaving your own place in the battle line.

I've noticed if I don't have LOS on my LRM mechs I'll test the waters with a salvo or two and I've often noticed no hits on maps like that.

Maps like Caustic though? It's like a buffet.