384 replies to this topic

[Thunder Child]

I'm serious. Noobs are always complaining about how LRMs magically track them all over the map. LRM players complain about how they can never get a good IDF lock, or how they can't punch through ECMz to fire their load. Direct Fire Players are always complaining about how LRMs are "No skill" because they don't need to be aimed.

By turning them into an IDF Grenade Launcher, that can be shotgunned at close range provided you account for the launch angle, LRMs become a skill based IDF weapon with the ability to still be fired in a Direct Fire fight. Take Artemis if you want more shotgun and less grenade.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Just remove the damned locking system, buff flight speed to 400m/s, and make it use a standard FPS Grenade Launcher Mechanic, with 1000m being the absolute highest you can aim, and 50m being the absolute lowest. Also, add a scale to the battlegrid so that players can estimate ranges.

Tada, LRMs now ignore ECM, like they should. They require "aiming skillzz" to actually hit anything at a distance. They have the speed to get there fast enough to actually hit, provided your aim is good. And because they go up and over **** again, without needing a lock, they can be used to force players out of cover, as they are meant to. Narc would be a homing beacon which pulls in any missiles which pass within 180m, and is negated by ECM. Artemis missiles can't be affected by Narc. Artemis missiles have a much tighter spread, but have a much flatter trajectory. They will tighten spread onto a TAG Laser. Normal LRMs are unaffected by TAG.

LRMs are now fixed.

Or you could not steal potential mechanics for 'Mech Mortar systems. Because why should PGI just scrap an entire weapon system and make it a different weapon rather than add a timeline friendly weapon system?

Several posters have bandied about the word ambush. An ambush is simply attacking in a manner which grant the attacker the element of surprise. Any surprise attack is an ambush. Some players get upset about a weapon system which can attack without a means of counter attacking. They refuse to acknowledge the ability requires teamwork and because cause they cannot shoot back or disdain of teamwork which does not involve being a member of the death ball the weapon is "cheap" and/or "for N00Bz". Perhaps it is time people learn there is more to 'Mech combat than LoS weapons and learn to deal with it. Really not all that hard.

[Thunder Child]

I fully agree. The reason I am using the idea that I am running with, is because it makes LRMs more reliant on the users skill, rather than the targets ability to evade it. As to Mech Mortars, they were superseded by LRMs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 01:45 PM, said:

Just remove the damned locking system, buff flight speed to 400m/s, and make it use a standard FPS Grenade Launcher Mechanic, with 1000m being the absolute highest you can aim, and 50m being the absolute lowest. Also, add a scale to the battlegrid so that players can estimate ranges.

Tada, LRMs now ignore ECM, like they should. They require "aiming skillzz" to actually hit anything at a distance. They have the speed to get there fast enough to actually hit, provided your aim is good. And because they go up and over **** again, without needing a lock, they can be used to force players out of cover, as they are meant to. Narc would be a homing beacon which pulls in any missiles which pass within 180m, and is negated by ECM. Artemis missiles can't be affected by Narc. Artemis missiles have a much tighter spread, but have a much flatter trajectory. They will tighten spread onto a TAG Laser. Normal LRMs are unaffected by TAG.

LRMs are now fixed.

400 m/s is less than 2/3 the velocity of an ac20. Ever try hitting anything other than a parked Assault mech at 800 meters with an ac20?

For a "long range missile" that projectile speed would limit them to hitting targets at 400 meters or less, with any efficiency, making them WORSE than they are now.

They'd be slow, ineffective arty strikes being targeted at coordinates, not enemy mechs.

[Thunder Child]

Apologies. 400m/s is too slow. I'd misremembered the number I read on Smurfys. I was thinking LBX10 speed at the time, which is actually 1100. That should be closer to the recommended speed.

Edit: And I don't even know WHERE I got the 400m/s. For some reason that was what I was remembering the LB-10X to be, but LB-10X speed is what I actually meant, sorry.

Edited by Thunder Child, 30 May 2015 - 02:35 PM.

[IraqiWalker]

For future reference:

Ambush: An attack that hits the enemy when they least expect, and with complete surprise.

LRMS: Weapons that give at least a 5 second warning before they reach their target, and require the target to do something absolutely idiotic.

The two are NOT the same.

[KuroNyra]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 02:12 PM, said:

I'm serious.

Really, just... Just stop having ideas like that, please.
First, they would simply kill LRMS and how they are supposed to work in canon and... Well, pretty much every battletech/mechwarrior game, going even against the rules of Missiles Launcher (LRM) vs Rocket Launcher (SRM)

And they would solve in no way the problem.

Sur, some guy might be able to use that, I even did it sometimes. But that would be too situational and we simply don't have the maps to do that kind of weapons.

Edited by KuroNyra, 30 May 2015 - 02:48 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

Apologies. 400m/s is too slow. I'd misremembered the number I read on Smurfys. I was thinking LBX10 speed at the time, which is actually 1100. That should be closer to the recommended speed.

Edit: And I don't even know WHERE I got the 400m/s. For some reason that was what I was remembering the LB-10X to be, but LB-10X speed is what I actually meant, sorry.

still not in love with the suggestion, but 1100 m/s would make it a lot more viable, lol. Still not how I would prefer them, but would be a lot more bearable.

[Thunder Child]

Look, I know it's not the greatest concept. I'm just trying to suggest something that might actually allow LRMs to be a viable indirect fire weapon system, without making them the homing missile of death, or completely useless.

I suppose another option is PGI could always fix ECM..... right?

[Weeny Machine]

ArchSight, on 30 May 2015 - 01:09 PM, said:

The truth is LRM's need to be buffed but PGI hasn't done it in a way that doesn't outrage the community to make LRM a effective weapon system as the direct fire options.

The problem is the indirect fire component. If they make the LRMs more powerful, then you can wreck anything easily while cradling your balls in the back.

They should just allow indirect fire on narced and TAGed targets. Then buff the missile system. At the same time ECM should be reworked to a TT ECM not this magic super bubble. Sometimes I wonder why my mech even has a radar. Putting a BAP into everything is getting ludicrous as well and helps only on a relatively short range anyway

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Look, I know it's not the greatest concept. I'm just trying to suggest something that might actually allow LRMs to be a viable indirect fire weapon system, without making them the homing missile of death, or completely useless.

I suppose another option is PGI could always fix ECM..... right?

The problem is, as someone already pointed out, you would get mech mortars then. Which will make an appearance later down the timeline.

Maybe introduce Thunder LRM to get rid of the ECM problem. The minefield should be easily removable by firing on them.

Edited by Bush Hopper, 30 May 2015 - 03:03 PM.

[SweetJackal]

The large stigma of LRMs (both from those that use them and those that come under fire from them) comes from the lock-on system itself. Some hate it because they have the perception that while they have to expose themselves in a dance to the death to deal damage the dirty LRMers get to sip a cool drink hiding safely behind a hill while firing wave after wave of homing death that will seek out targets no matter where they are.

LRM haters sit about and say that LRMs are OP because they cannot fathom the counterplay to it and that getting shot by someone they cannot see is "cheap."

LRM users hate the lock on system as it is a massive limitation as to what you can do with the weapon. You have to dedicate a massive amount of tonnage to ammo and support systems to be effective, for a dedicated LRM platform to reach the same level of effectiveness as a direct fire mech they have to devote more tonnage and crits to their weapon system, supporting that weapon system and have to put in more effort into their play.

Funny enough the way to break this is to make dumb-fired LRMs more effective. Give a different movement profile for LRMs fired without a lock so the weapon system can be effective when used as an awkward ballistic weapon. This increases the effectiveness of the higher rungs of skill when using LRMs, turns ECM from a hard counter into a soft counter by making LRMs merely harder to use against ECM instead of ineffective against active ECM, and reduces the indirect spam by allowing LRMs to have dumbfire effectiveness at a lower tonnage and crit commitment. For players to have effective indirect LRM fire they would have to continue to dedicate the tonnage and crits to those support systems while not forcing those systems on LRM mechs in order for LRMs to be effective, this creates effective LRM mechs that cannot perform indirect fire effectively (eliminating a key complaint against LRMs in the process.)

Could also increase diversity in the comp scene by allowing player skill to compensate for the lack of locks.

Edited by SweetJackal, 30 May 2015 - 03:10 PM.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Look, I know it's not the greatest concept. I'm just trying to suggest something that might actually allow LRMs to be a viable indirect fire weapon system, without making them the homing missile of death, or completely useless.

I suppose another option is PGI could always fix ECM..... right?

Now you are getting it. Would it surprise you if I told you ECM on TT is radically different than ECM in MWO? That it was designed to counter Artemis and BAP? PGI put the ECM cart before the BAP horse initially and it has had lasting repercussions. ECM should degrade performance for sensor based systems, not render the 'Mech invisible to sensors.

TAG, honestly it needs Arrow IV to work properly. It is the ultimate support equipment in that it is supposed to be guidance for Arrow IV Homing Missiles and Copperhead Artillery shells. Copperheads are a non-issue because tube artillery and 'Mechs are actually a pretty poor combo. Arrow IV is different in being either fired at coordinates for area effect damage or as a longer ranged (likely double since LRMs have been given longer range in MWO) LRM-AC/20 hybrid, which requires TAG to guide it to its target. But the weapon requires location splitting and consumes crits equal to its massive 15 (IS) or 12 (Clan) ton weight. So without crit splitting, ammo type swaps, and bigger maps Arrow IV is a no go. Instead PGI gave TAG a use as improving the spread on LRMs, which actually is a timeline violation. Forgivable for gameplay sake in this case as Semi-Guided LRMs are 3060 tech.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 30 May 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[Thunder Child]

I know how the TT ECM works. And I totally agree that it should work like that. Because once it did, we'd be able to finally balance LRMs properly. The problem is, the moment anyone brings up the TT-Fix to the Magic Jesus Box, all the L33t players throw their toys out of the cot and scream about how PGI is nerfing their Skillz.

Making Guardian ECM ACTUALLY WORK like GUARDIAN ECM, would be the first step on fixing LRMs.

My idea was just something I figured could work instead, since we're never allowed to fix the MJB.

[lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol]

IraqiWalker, on 30 May 2015 - 01:55 PM, said:

If by "screwed" you mean "totally unaffected". Then you would be correct.

With respect, knowing what "Face Time" is and how to counter longer burn times by "Rolling laser damage" by torso twisting might change your tune. But if your playstyle is to stand still, stare down a TW or SC and trade fire back and forth... then you will not notice much of a difference.

[MischiefSC]

Leave them the locking mechanic and the tracking but significantly nerf turning ability and flatten the firing arc. Have dumbfire LRMs cluster more tightly than lock-fired LRMs. You fire with a lock and they're slower (300 m/s) with a bit of an arc but they track. You fire without a lock and they're a flat trajectory and go 500 or so.

This way you can let them stay at < 500m/s speed and still be accurate at 1km. It keeps the locking factor but scales it to direct fire. You can still 'avoid' them at very long range and you can still lock and fire them for superior accuracy. Have them generate screenshake/flash in an 'area affect' so that even a near miss will still shake someone up.

Have ECM just block paperdoll and hud/damage info but still leave the red dorito. Have it block locks but obviously you can still dumbfire.

Would be a better game all around.

[Khobai]

Quote

Making Guardian ECM ACTUALLY WORK like GUARDIAN ECM, would be the first step on fixing LRMs.

This. ECM should not grant stealth. If you absolutely have to have it grant stealth then it should only grant stealth to the mech its equipped on and should not stealth nearby friendlies.

[Johny Rocket]

Khobai, on 30 May 2015 - 04:42 PM, said:

This. ECM should not grant stealth. If you absolutely have to have it grant stealth then it should only grant stealth to the mech its equipped on and should not stealth nearby friendlies.

Then lrms become to effective again, just leave it be please. I love playing them, I sure don't want everyone to.

[Thunder Child]

Which is why, once ECM is fixed, LRMs could then be rebalanced. For example, if ECM worked like Guardian, then you could implement IDF with ONLY a Narc or TAG. LRMs would need a speed buff, either way.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Thunder Child, on 30 May 2015 - 05:53 PM, said:

Which is why, once ECM is fixed, LRMs could then be rebalanced. For example, if ECM worked like Guardian, then you could implement IDF with ONLY a Narc or TAG. LRMs would need a speed buff, either way.

LRMs have always been capable of indirect fire if there was a spotter. That particular ability should never be removed. If it proves to powerful PGI can always increase the scatter radius as spotted LRMs were much less accurate.

[Thunder Child]

I know that. You know that. But every wannabe Sniper that thinks they can ridge hump a low hill and be invulnerable believes it should not be possible.