89 replies to this topic

[Zordicron]

Yeah I do fine in mine.

Front load the armor, a lot. Especially CT.
Run a BIG XL, at least 325. IMO, PGI playtested this thing and balanced it around max engine with smaller lasers to free up the tonnage. They made the hardpoints in the torsos...mostly low(there are a couple higher ones but not much, like laserface in head wont accept a big laser) to keep poptart loadouts to a minimum. Anyway, you can run the big XL because the CT takes most of the damage, hence frontloading that.

You can also get away with frontloading, because the Hoppah isn't suitable for flanking maneuvers. In fact it plays a whole lot like a laser version of an Orion. Stick to your fatty deathball pals, and work the fringe. While your DWF and Fatlas buddies are going to be the center, you will be one of the hovering cronies that keeps an eye for flanks and deturs them. You will add substantial firepower to a focused target, you can take a hit, and you can jump if need be to help in chasing off those pesky flanker mechs.

It is not a Summoner, thats for sure. For whatever reason, PGI has it in mind that 65 tons and lower is OK to have fairly quick twist and turn ability, even accel and decel. 70 tons though, it's like it's copypasta from the assault class unless you run a giant engine/ Hoppah has a lot more in common (and Orion) with an Awesome than a Jager or Pult when it comes to mobility.


So, that said, I dont run JJ on one of my variants, and I put 2 on another one jsut to help it get over hills. I completely ignore the missile hardpoints. a couple LPL or PPC(the one has quirks I think for PPC) then ML or MPL. Big XL, DHS till you run out of room. JJ or not, I am still working on deciding how many/any JJ work on each, and I doubt I will really know until I get double basics. My guy feeling is the hoppahs will benefit from 2 to allow them to get to places they couldnt otherwise and take "shortcuts" but otherwise tonnage will be better spent on DHS.

edit: oh yeah, and as for your comparison to a phract, 280 is right in the sweet spot on that chassis. If you want to compare it to a hoppah, try the 4x. THEN, drop a XL340 into a 1x or something, and go see how that runs. Big engines make a monstrous difference in the 70ton+ heavy.

Edited by Eldagore, 31 May 2015 - 07:59 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Eldagore, on 31 May 2015 - 07:48 AM, said:

It is not a Summoner, thats for sure. For whatever reason, PGI has it in mind that 70 tons and lower is OK to have fairly quick twist and turn ability, even accel and decel. 75 tons though, it's like it's copypasta from the assault class. Hoppah has a lot more in common (and Orion) with an Awesome than a phract when it comes to mobility.

Hopper is 70 tons, too, just as a point of interest. Even though it looks like it should be 75 or more-

[Weeny Machine]

Jump Jets in general are a joke in this game. They are good to hop on small obstacles or help climbing...but that's certainly not the mobility described in the novels, TRO nor TT. PGI should be honest and call them HoverJets

[Ultimax]

Sjorpha, on 31 May 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2181719e29865e6

That's the build direction I had the most success in.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 30 May 2015 - 09:50 PM, said:

4 energy hardpoints, and a lot less tonnage for them and DHS, vs 6-8 Energy Harpdoints and and Energy Cooldown and Heat Generation Quirks (ERLL for the 5J, ML for the 5H and PPC focused for the 5N, but with general quirks, too) makes that hard for me to fully accept.

Summoner is certainly more mobile, and IMO, tankier, but I don't see how it LaserVomits better.

Well, 2 c LPL and 2 ER MLs will do 40 damage at 445 meters. A Grasshopper 5H with 3 LPL and 4 MLs will do about the same at that range. The Summoner will have an advantage at longer range.

[Otto Cannon]

The Grasshopper is probably the best proof that jumpjets are not implemented well in this game. It's a mech that's supposed to rely on the extra jumping mobility and is even named after it, but the best it can do with maximum jets is slowly fart upwards a little bit and facehump canyon walls.

Jumpjets require a tonnage sacrifice equal to a fair chunk of potential firepower. The fact is that 1.5 tons can hide your entire team under ECM for the whole match, but does almost nothing when invested in hoverjets. Six tons of hoverjets are still junk. That's making the game far less fun than it could be at a time when it needs all the players it can get to survive.

New content means nothing when we have to experience it through a filter of bad gameplay balance that could easily be corrected.

[Deathlike]

The moving is more or less fine... from a instance, you could actually kinda mistake it for a tall Firestarter...

You can blame the man who created the Paulconomy for Hoverjets™. I doubt this will ever be solved (there were promises for buffs, just like the Flamer, but you know how that goes).

I'd like to pretend the 5J didn't exist though...

[Nathan Foxbane]

Been struggling with the 'Hoppas myself. Bit of a hit and miss 'Mech. Finally got my GHR-4J® to stop maneuvering like a beached whale when I broke down and slapped a 350XL in it. Unfortunately, I cannot find a build with decent damage I like using and it is too clumsy between its size and lack of base agility to really fill any niche. My current build uses 1 ton less than max armor, max jj, 4 mpl, 2 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, a Streak with half a ton of ammo (just could not let that hardpoint go to waste), and the stock ER LL. Really hit and miss and with a 1.3 heat efficiency it gets toasty pretty quickly. Really hit and miss, but it has been doing better with the XL, I break 400 every couple games now at least and finally broke 700 in it last night (on a losing game TT_TT). I guess I could try quad mediums and twin ERLL or LL again, but the burn times are just painful and the armor seems to evaporate off of all the torsos as is.
I kind like the 4H with the stock LRM-5 twin Large and 5 mediums. Those two high hardpoints are life savers in a 'Mech so damn tall with mostly midline hardpoints and oh the lulz when I actually kill someone with the 5 instead of wasting half the teams AMS ammo.
The 5N is just frustrating and the only build I even half gel with is a single PPC with the rest of the hardpoints as medium lasers.
Honestly I have no clue why of all the heavies the 'Hoppa did not get mobility quirks or even enhanced base stats. The only thing it really has is the torso twist range, which is hampered by an abysmal torso twist speed. I totally agree with you on the jumping Bishop, for a 'Mech that is supposed to be about agility and jumping it does poorly at both, especially the jumping. I mean if PGI was ever worried about a jump sniping poptart 'Mech the 'Hoppa is the last 'Mech they should worry about. Only the 4H would get even the slightest milage out of the tactic and you still have to expose better than half the 'Mech just to get any sort of decent firepower out it.

[Lightfoot]

We told PGI not to go with 3PV because they would ruin the jump-jets to block pop-tarting. And I guess we were right? Anyway, these are the Canon Jumpjets MWO should have.



About 2-3 mech heights for an Assault, 3 for a Heavy, 3-4 for a Medium, 4-5 for a Light. Then whatever the distance the JJets rate.

[Bishop Steiner]

Nathan Foxbane, on 31 May 2015 - 10:25 AM, said:

Been struggling with the 'Hoppas myself. Bit of a hit and miss 'Mech. Finally got my GHR-4J® to stop maneuvering like a beached whale when I broke down and slapped a 350XL in it. Unfortunately, I cannot find a build with decent damage I like using and it is too clumsy between its size and lack of base agility to really fill any niche. My current build uses 1 ton less than max armor, max jj, 4 mpl, 2 AMS with 2 tons of ammo, a Streak with half a ton of ammo (just could not let that hardpoint go to waste), and the stock ER LL. Really hit and miss and with a 1.3 heat efficiency it gets toasty pretty quickly. Really hit and miss, but it has been doing better with the XL, I break 400 every couple games now at least and finally broke 700 in it last night (on a losing game TT_TT). I guess I could try quad mediums and twin ERLL or LL again, but the burn times are just painful and the armor seems to evaporate off of all the torsos as is.
I kind like the 4H with the stock LRM-5 twin Large and 5 mediums. Those two high hardpoints are life savers in a 'Mech so damn tall with mostly midline hardpoints and oh the lulz when I actually kill someone with the 5 instead of wasting half the teams AMS ammo.
The 5N is just frustrating and the only build I even half gel with is a single PPC with the rest of the hardpoints as medium lasers.
Honestly I have no clue why of all the heavies the 'Hoppa did not get mobility quirks or even enhanced base stats. The only thing it really has is the torso twist range, which is hampered by an abysmal torso twist speed. I totally agree with you on the jumping Bishop, for a 'Mech that is supposed to be about agility and jumping it does poorly at both, especially the jumping. I mean if PGI was ever worried about a jump sniping poptart 'Mech the 'Hoppa is the last 'Mech they should worry about. Only the 4H would get even the slightest milage out of the tactic and you still have to expose better than half the 'Mech just to get any sort of decent firepower out it.

on the 5N Hopper try this:
GHR-5N
2 PPC on trigger 1 (chainfire)
2 RA Mlasers on trigger 2 (group)
3 Torso MLasers on scroll wheel (group)

It's not "meta" by any means, but I can usually get 2-3 volleys of PPCs and 3 medium laser volleys off before getting in danger of shutdown. PPCs in the arm really let me control where I want to put them, and peek at long range. For me, I sem to have mediocre hitreg with lasers on Lights, but as long as I aim, the PPCs usually rock them hard, another reason I arm mount them

Been averaging about 500 dmg and 2 kills a match. Not my most glorious numbers, but the best I have ever gotten from a Grashopper.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 31 May 2015 - 07:54 AM, said:

Hopper is 70 tons, too, just as a point of interest. Even though it looks like it should be 75 or more-

Yeah I caught that right after I hit post, i was thinking about Cataphract like the entire time I was writing that section, because it is the easiest to test- because it forces you to- at least with the 4x. Catapults and Jagers just dont see the deterioration in agility with the engine range like a Phract etc do, even though they are side by side in the mechbay.

Despite that snaffu my point still stands.

[ShadowFire]

Just give this game MW4 style jump jets but keep the limiting MWO fall damage and jump jet shake....

Jumping was fun but when you jumped it was very predictable with actual ramp physics a fact. Also jump jets were subject to inertia and one did not get yanked out of the sky the second the jump jets stopped firing (like MWO does).
The upward inertia had to be canceled by gravity before the decent so a mech experienced a nice pause at the top of the jump arc making itself a fat target for a second or so.

MWO jump jets are not not worthy of the name and PGI does the game great disservice with it's feeble (and non-cannon) implementation of them.

Edited by ShadowFire, 01 June 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Zordicron]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2015 - 04:44 PM, said:

on the 5N Hopper try this:
GHR-5N
2 PPC on trigger 1 (chainfire)
2 RA Mlasers on trigger 2 (group)
3 Torso MLasers on scroll wheel (group)

It's not "meta" by any means, but I can usually get 2-3 volleys of PPCs and 3 medium laser volleys off before getting in danger of shutdown. PPCs in the arm really let me control where I want to put them, and peek at long range. For me, I sem to have mediocre hitreg with lasers on Lights, but as long as I aim, the PPCs usually rock them hard, another reason I arm mount them

Been averaging about 500 dmg and 2 kills a match. Not my most glorious numbers, but the best I have ever gotten from a Grashopper.

This loadout, give or take, but the loadout style is also right out of several of my posts on the hoppahs. So it isn't just Bishop saying this can work, it has been proven. Mixed range loadouts do a heck of a lot better than single weapon boats on this chassis.

[XX Sulla XX]

I wanted to like the grasshopper also. But it is just not very agile and its way to tall.

[Bishop Steiner]

XX Sulla XX, on 01 June 2015 - 08:07 PM, said:

I wanted to like the grasshopper also. But it is just not very agile and its way to tall.

It feels like everything Paul ruined on the VTR....made worse by having worse weapon selection and hitboxes.

[Ultimax]

Bishop Steiner, on 01 June 2015 - 08:21 PM, said:

It feels like everything Paul ruined on the VTR....made worse by having worse weapon selection and hitboxes.

The reality is that the VTR always had all of the flaws it has now.


At the time, they weren't important - because what the VTR could do was the meta and it did it exceedingly well.



Poptarting mitigated all of the flaws, the huge model, the really large STs, XL engines, etc.



So yeah, the Grasshopper inherits some of that legacy (the height, not the STs, those are decent at least) as well as the legacy of the nerfs that cut JJs down so bad as well as PPCs.



My opinion is that it is going to take as much, or more, constant community outcry as there was against poptarts - but this time in favor of JJs to actually see improvements made to JJs.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ultimatum X, on 01 June 2015 - 08:29 PM, said:

The reality is that the VTR always had all of the flaws it has now.


At the time, they weren't important - because what the VTR could do was the meta and it did it exceedingly well.



Poptarting mitigated all of the flaws, the huge model, the really large STs, XL engines, etc.



So yeah, the Grasshopper inherits some of that legacy (the height, not the STs, those are decent at least) as well as the legacy of the nerfs that cut JJs down so bad as well as PPCs.



My opinion is that it is going to take as much, or more, constant community outcry as there was against poptarts - but this time in favor of JJs to actually see improvements made to JJs.

Ummm...except I never catered to the Meta. The STs are not large, the Shoulders are huge. VTRs, when they turned and jumped well, protected those STs like a boss. Not quite Zeus tough, but if your STs were getting cored, you were staring. Only thing that protected it's STs better at the time was the Shadowhawk.


Before Paul killed its mobility it was the best heavy brawler in the game. Something overshadowed by the Toaster Pastry Craze. Before Paul, the VTR-9S, packing ac20, 2 Mlasers and 3xSRM4 was my ride of choice, and I found it quite survivable, to jump into an enemy formation, alpha, alpha again, jump out, come back from a different direction and do it again.

What hurts them is the nerfed Jumping and the crap lack of quirks because they were ONCE a tier 1 mech.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 01 June 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[STEF_]

Welcome Bishop!

Mainly you described why I don't like Grasshopper, from day one.

Still, it seems to me to drive a huge assault... but having the armor of a 70 tonner.

Hoping PGI will listen,.... at least you (have you twitter this, too?)

[Widowmaker1981]

I wonder if a Mechs 'size' bubble has some kind of hidden effect on its jumping ability, the thrust to weight calculations get a bit confusing if that isnt a thing:

a Vindicator with 6JJs has 450 thrust to 45 weight or 10.0 T/W, and a Mist Lynx with 6JJs has 222 thrust to 25 weight, or 8.88 T/W. The Mist Lynx jumps better, why is that?

Assuming that mech size class does have an impact on jumping ability, that would explain why the Hopper feels so bad at jumping compared to the Summoner, since its classed as 'Huge' and only quirked to help with walking up hills like a 'Large'

[MeiSooHaityu]

I don't feel it is that bad of a jumper considering it is almost an assault in weight.

Basically I don't feel this is purely a Grasshopper issue, but more of a general JJ issue...and that is a tough issue to sort out (at least a sensitive one).