114 replies to this topic

[Mudhutwarrior]

kamiko kross, on 04 June 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

If you exclude all the wierd stuff about bullies!? (EH!?)and the veiled anti group patter....you have some points. But if you take your last sentence, sit down and have a good look at it-that is exactly what many of the pro solo guys ARE saying. What is causing all the debate is not the point you and others are making matey as even I kind of agree with you from a business sense but rather the logic and self deceit behind the argument of those points.
As the game is currently designed....ALL modes outside of solo mode are DESIGNED WITH TEAM PLAY IN MIND. That is an immutable fact. People are CHOOSING to not partake of that design ethic and are then complaining about said results of their OWN CHOICE. They blame anyone else as long it's not themselves. It's PGI's fault, it's premades' fault it's the space cow living on the moon...it's shameful. Some of the silly attitude I've seen directed at team players has shocked me with it's pettiness.
Take me and my "premades" for example. A typical Kurita premade consists of: A couple of duos from a few units. Maybe once in a while a 4 man and the rest? ALL solo NON UNIT players. Only differences from a 12 man pug? They spend 10 mins getting on a TS server saying "hi guys" and be willing to work together with the other 11 people. This is why I personally, have such little empathy with solo guys complaining about solo failing in a group oriented mode. It's so easy to rectify and takes so little time it's not even funny. The only thing preventing the solution of the problem is poor attitude from certain players.

The horse will die of dehydration after you lead it to the water it seems.

The potential downsides of tying the solo queue into CW is it will encourage more and more solo play, which is an awful idea from a community standpoint and awful for a social standpoint too. It might also lead to groups giving up due to not finding as many matches thus accelerating a very serious problem. 30% (guestimate:P) of the playerbase and "probably" the greater paying portion of the playerbase might just drift off....having many players is not essentially success for PGI, but they should be promoting MWO far more than they should be...

Any solution besides the players themselves sorting their attitude out will need to accommodate EVERYONE fairly and equally, not just solo players. After all you already have a solo mode...which I think needs more things adding to it-but not at the expense of group play. WoT does not have this problem, WT does not have this problem..GW2 does not have this problem....why does MWO?

You lay that down when you know from PGI's own admission over 80% of the population drops solo. Like I said I have no problem with teams dropping against other teams its the ones who just go from stomps to stomps then come here telling us its a team game when in fact it's not by the numbers of the population.

PGI spent and inordinate amount of time accommodating teams with CW and from what I see it was poorly spent because few actually play the mode and stay in group que. Taking the approach from the team direction hasn't worked out for either teams or solo's. Now your stuck as they work on solo maps and pve.

They also spend to much effort with lore while ignoring what makes a great game. Lore be damned its a fantasy history to begin with and that population though core is small.

What PGI needs to do is look at what will bring casuals and solo's into team play as something to work towards instead of forcing it as a requirement to build c-bills faster. I would argue the vast majority of team players are not well rounded and shoehorned into roles they cant easily move out of. It breeds the slaughter for the sake of slaughter mentality. Don't know about you but I don't enjoy either side of a stomp. They will always happen but we should try to decrease the number of times it would happen. Thinking of the game as a progression from solo casual to teamplay would do a lot in that regard. Make it a flow rather than a wall to climb. It sure would stop the animosity here in the long run.

Teamplay should be a progression and something to work towards instead of how its structured now.

As far as CW goes if we could grow the population by making the game more accessible we could easily have a solo cw que as introduction to teams. So many matches in CW and you qualify for a team slot or some thing a long those lines. As it stands right now you have many exceptional players in solo only who feel no need or want to move on. Give the player something to work towards. Solo then CW solo then AAA teams then AA, A then leagues or something along those lines. Make being a team member worth something instead of ramming it onto everyone.

[XphR]

kamiko kross, on 04 June 2015 - 04:05 AM, said:

Take me and my "premades" for example. A typical Kurita premade consists of: A couple of duos from a few units. Maybe once in a while a 4 man and the rest? ALL solo NON UNIT players. Only differences from a 12 man pug? They spend 10 mins getting on a TS server saying "hi guys" and be willing to work together with the other 11 people.

And even this step has been eased with the inclusion of in game VOIP(when it functions{for thous that opt to use it}) The groups I run in (some times theres just two of us other times its three to nine or more) use Skype (occasionally TS or once in a blue moon mumble) and also co-ordinate with In game VOIP. Sometimes its just a few quick requests or blerbs of relayed information other times its obeying the requests of Johnny has no group but a plan. There are times when only a few people co-operate.. but other times one or two requests fly and the whole team rallies to the idea. Next thing you know it looks as if the whole team is a group that plays daily when in fact its just a bunch of people wanting to have a little fun blowing up mechs..

[Joseph Mallan]

How more accessible does it need to be. I click a button or 5 and I'm in.

The first time I had to pick 4 Mechs but after that, I pick a populated planet and go.

Strange thing, the better team wins there as often as in PUGs. Which is all the time. sorry but that's how it should work.

And before you go Mud slinging, I have only dropped as a PUG in CW and maybe with the Law 7 times in the last few months(6 man was our largest group IIRC). And all of those times I had my ass kicked by better players. Wanting to make better money I decides to go back to PUG... alone.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2015 - 05:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Bilbo, on 03 June 2015 - 11:15 AM, said:

It is now the fault of the evil MM.

Then I think we must do more to stamp out that "Evil". We are obviously being negligent in our duties to the PUG Community as a whole.

We must "carry harder" lads. Remember, it is for the betterment of ALL Puglandians.

[Yokaiko]

Mudhutwarrior, on 04 June 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

You lay that down when you know from PGI's own admission over 80% of the population drops solo.

Should have knowm, you again.

...and no it was 80% OF DROPS back where groups were 2-4 and 8

quit trotting out that crap.

[Almond Brown]

Mudhutwarrior, on 04 June 2015 - 03:46 AM, said:

Sure if it was remotely fair. We have seen enough over the years here to say that The bullies do their level best to rule the roost. Lately though high horses are being exposed like with the cheating scandal. We even see them blame their kids for the cheating and the defenders (other Bullies) come to defend them. It's glorious!

I don't think anyone wants to eliminate teams but rather reduce the odds of dropping into a slaughter only to be told get better by those who massacre.

Now that we know for a fact that many of the get better faction where getting better on the sly maybe its time to push harder for fair and equitable and stop with the crap that its a team game. Everyone and their playstyle should be able to fit under this tent and have fun. That should be the goal. Not its a team game and if you don't like it we will beat the life out of you.

With some thought and planning we can make it better for teams and the guys who want to drop solo and casual. Until we can push the my way or the highway crowd aside that won't happen.

We have been over this many time Mud. How would you have it set up again? Max 4 man in the PUG Team queue? Obviously those poor 2-man will not fair any better when the other team has 3 x 4-mans who play as a team and kick butt.

How exactly do you propose that those 2-3 buddies, who just want to have some MWO FUN (by winning at least, what 50%, of their Matches) and not get stomped in the other 50%.

A 4 man minimum won't stop the Stomps. What players face is NEW versus NOT NEW players.

One player that is new versus another player who is 3 weeks out of Cadet Camp are not equals...

That is what appears to be the goal. Fight ONLY your equals right? Is that even possible unless the time played in game is equal?

P.S. Having 7-15 Ranking Buckets to divide the Community is not truly a solution either. My guess is for many, the only solution is PvE where they can set the AI level to suit their needs. Easy - (sort of) Medium - Medium - Tough - (sort of) Tough - Always lose in Frustration (aka Insane)

Hopefully, Time will provide that avenue to those who wish to have it.

[Almond Brown]

LordBraxton, on 04 June 2015 - 05:12 AM, said:

By design, MWO will usually involve stomps. People blamed 4 mans just like they have, and will always, blame mechs being OP for their stomping. I vote for 2 man groups in the solo queue Training Grounds so you can train newbies.

FTFY

[Mystere]

Mudhutwarrior, on 04 June 2015 - 03:31 AM, said:

Yeah slaughter is fun with friends. I missed that in school.

You build a team to face a challenge as far as I knew. In your view its all about the team even if there is no real need. We had a name for that in school too but its not for a polite public. Quick bring your towel to the showers, team sports to begin.

A long time ago in a place far, far away, groups of bullies thought I was easy pickings. Little did they know:

[Jon Gotham]

Mudhutwarrior, on 04 June 2015 - 05:51 AM, said:

You lay that down when you know from PGI's own admission over 80% of the population drops solo. Like I said I have no problem with teams dropping against other teams its the ones who just go from stomps to stomps then come here telling us its a team game when in fact it's not by the numbers of the population.

PGI spent and inordinate amount of time accommodating teams with CW and from what I see it was poorly spent because few actually play the mode and stay in group que. Taking the approach from the team direction hasn't worked out for either teams or solo's. Now your stuck as they work on solo maps and pve.

They also spend to much effort with lore while ignoring what makes a great game. Lore be damned its a fantasy history to begin with and that population though core is small.

What PGI needs to do is look at what will bring casuals and solo's into team play as something to work towards instead of forcing it as a requirement to build c-bills faster. I would argue the vast majority of team players are not well rounded and shoehorned into roles they cant easily move out of. It breeds the slaughter for the sake of slaughter mentality. Don't know about you but I don't enjoy either side of a stomp. They will always happen but we should try to decrease the number of times it would happen. Thinking of the game as a progression from solo casual to teamplay would do a lot in that regard. Make it a flow rather than a wall to climb. It sure would stop the animosity here in the long run.

Teamplay should be a progression and something to work towards instead of how its structured now.

As far as CW goes if we could grow the population by making the game more accessible we could easily have a solo cw que as introduction to teams. So many matches in CW and you qualify for a team slot or some thing a long those lines. As it stands right now you have many exceptional players in solo only who feel no need or want to move on. Give the player something to work towards. Solo then CW solo then AAA teams then AA, A then leagues or something along those lines. Make being a team member worth something instead of ramming it onto everyone.

The thing is, I was thinking this just before I checked his page. Just what group do PGI cater for? What is the best use of their time? Because I cannot work it out. I'll bet you they can't either lol.
People cry and scream for more involvement, but when asked to be more involved they refuse. I don't think there is enough paying groupers to support mwo either, even though there are far, far FAR more then you think there are Mud. With the playerbase as it is, with it's current attitude towards team play and any effort input-just what are PGI gonna do? Any decision has to be met halfway by the players and it seems the players won't do that. judging by some of the comments on this thread alone.
NONE of the other games of this type I play have the same anti premade raging-even though premades are allowed into the regular queues with 0 issues. Why I wonder does the mwo playerbase get so het up about it?
It's the dishonesty that does them the most damage with the rest of the community and PGI as well I'd wager. Just one guy I've seen has been honest: he said he can't be bothered with any more effort and just wants to shoot stuff and doesn't care about lore, game modes or other players. I may think he is a prat but I respect the fact he can be honest.
Why can't more people be the same eh? Why do those people expect others to bend to acommodate them?

[Impossible Wasabi]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 03:26 AM, said:

I do not understand the thinking here Pope.

Its a team game
with the objective of winning

So why is it bad sportsmanship to play the game as intended?

Having organized teams play against pick up teams in any sport leads to some pretty piss poor matches, that's the point.

With our smallish game population, skill differences are fairly big as is and rolling anything more than four people means that you are essentially shooting fish in a barrel.

It wasn't necessarily a focus on sportsmanship that kept us from stacking teams in other FPS games but rather because it was boring. It stacks the odds so far in the favor of the organized group that unless they are bad or purposely sandbag, it just isn't an interesting match.

Personally, the Space Pope likes challenges, which is why he avoids stacking teams, but to each their own.

-----------------------------------

To make a RL example, what droll fellow would show up to a pick up game with an entire team?

Take soccer for instance, what would be the point of one team (11 players) being matched against a team composed of the individuals or small groups of players that happened to show up to the pitch that day?

Generally, as far as the Space Pope is aware etiquette suggests that if you can field an entire team, it would be better to play in an actual league or against other similarly sized teams.

Sure, we could simply blame those 11 randomly gather players for not showing up as a part of a team or managing in the span of minutes to attain a level of teamwork comparable to an organized group, but that is in the view of the Space Pope missing the reasons why everyone might not be rolling deep for "casual games".

Edited by The True Space Pope, 04 June 2015 - 12:34 PM.

[Novawrecker]

Kyocera, on 01 June 2015 - 04:21 PM, said:

I don't want to be part of the group queue.

Well then you're screwed, because this isn't a solo content game.

(seriously, why the F are some people truly missing this aspect?!?!)

[Deadfire]

Novawrecker, on 04 June 2015 - 12:32 PM, said:

Well then you're screwed, because this isn't a solo content game.

(seriously, why the F are some people truly missing this aspect?!?!)

"Because my fun is more important then your fun"

[Boris The Spider]

It's all fine well people saying there isn't a problem, but Russ, you know the guy with the actual data, has concerns about team queue balance.

https://twitter.com/...725499773255680

PGI are looking at putting the game on Steam later this year and Steam is a social platform with a large market of small groups of casual players, RL friends’, etc. where games spread and do well by word of mouth. If a new player cannot join this game in the group queue they are going to lose entire revenue streams, we, the existing playerbase are just going to have accept whatever compromises PGI decides on.

Anyway, I think the answer here is staring us right in the face. Kind of goes back to what I have been saying since open-beta. The way to stop comps wrecking pubbies is to offer better rewards for higher level game play. So, what happens if they put the lance restrictions back in and add regular modes to CW so that we have 4 game modes?

• Public Queue) Solo as it is now.
  
• Lance Queue) Solo and Max 4, random maps/random game mode, slight (25% perhaps) increase in salvage.
  
• CW Classic) Any group size, random maps/random game modes, pull faction matched solos and mercs in using LFG or CW match builder. (approx 1/3 CW match rewards)
  
• CW Drop-ship) CW maps, as it is now

It's a solution that, as far as I can see addresses everyone’s concerns. Do you play solo, but find solo tedious, bereft of team-work, or too easy... hit up the lance queue for better rewards. You find the lance queue too easy, crank it up a notch, play CW Classic for even better rewards, which is also a perfect mode for those like myself who are in a large group already, want to play CW but dislike drop-ship (this would undoubtedly attract more players to CW), You would almost immediately find the better players migrating back away from the solo queue, improving the NPE.

It would reintroduce a more casual friendly grouped environment which would encourage new and current solo players to try it, tempt those back who left because grouping became too hardcore. It would increase the use of in game VOIP and the LFG tool... which feeds back to provide more players for the CW Classic LFG requirements. If you want proof of concept on this, think back to the Lance Challenge we had (before LFG existed) the NGNG and Comstar public TS servers were filled to capacity and event feedback on the forums was overwhelmingly positive.

A higher over-all grouping population allows for much better Elo matching, even if Comp teams decide to roll in the lance queue, their presence is diluted by the extra players, but why would they when they can play the same way in the CW queue and get CW rewards too!

It will also allow PGI to gauge peoples interest in the Drop-Ship Mode by comparing it to the Classic CW mode, allowing them to decide where to allocate dev resources. As in, do people like playing Drop-Ship or do they play because it is the only CW mode?

The only compromise is a slight increase of wait times, but its compromise that is shared by the entire player-base.

Edited by Boris The Spider, 05 June 2015 - 11:24 AM.

[Araevin Teshurr]

Do you mistakenly think that in any sense of reality a mech commander is going to sit back and order an attack with ONLY a group of mechs that is evenly balanced with what he is attacking? NO! It's war, you will fight what you are faced with.

[Boris The Spider]

Of course not, a competent commander would destroy them from orbit. What's your point?