129 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 02 June 2015 - 07:02 PM, said:

So temporaly P2W.
And you can`t buy Heros.

No, P2W is purchasing a massive advantage. Can you tell me what it is that this grasshopper can do, that no other mech in the game can do? Or compare to? I'm pretty sure it loses in the energy boating wars to the Stalker, and Timberwolf. Easily. Maybe even to the Hellbringer.

It's pay for early access.

Yes, you can't buy heroes, but not a single one of them qualifies as P2W. Some got close. The Dragonslayer for a while was pretty close to being P2W, then PGI nuked it from orbit.

Edited by IraqiWalker, 02 June 2015 - 07:11 PM.

[sneeking]

Grasshopper is anything but win...

Its terible !

[TKSax]

IraqiWalker, on 02 June 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

No, P2W is purchasing a massive advantage. Can you tell me what it is that this grasshopper can do, that no other mech in the game can do? Or compare to?

If that grasshopper is better than the other grasshoppers and you are unable to get it another way than with cash then it is P2W, TBR-A, (Debatable now with the neg quirks) GRF-2N are other examples of possaible P2W since they are clearly better than the existing chassis (DWF-S, was definitely P2W for a while). Dragon Slayer was definitely P2W for a long time.

If you defending by saying its will be available in a few months that's not really a good defense. MWO is not a p2w game, but some p2w elements sneak in from time to time. I have that already released chassis have extra variants in the gift store that are only available there for months. A week or two I would understand 2 to 3 months for a chassis that is already in game is stupid. I am sort of ok with the way mech packs work (all though Wave 1 when it first came out was totally P2W), I get that earl access thing with New Mechs, but the gift store thing with existing chassis annoys me to no end.

[Gas Guzzler]

I think you can win fine with other mechs.

Also not sure if the new one is outright better. It doesn't have 12.5% heat generation like the 5H, which kind of hurts it at laser vomiting, and it has no arm weapons so can't brawl as well as say.. the 5N.

[Naduk]

the wr3ck, on 02 June 2015 - 06:36 PM, said:

the other grasshopper s suck terribly. I think this one will be the best. My point being pgi gets you to buy one thing then tries to sell you an aditional model with better features later. Total ripoff scam.

no its not, there is no ripoff or scam
as every chassis sold becomes available for cbills

they are not selling gold ammo or anything that makes you do more damage
they are not waiting until everybody has bought lots of gold ammo and then release platinum ammo that does even more damage

nerfs and buffs are the same thing, they dont sit around waiting the release schedule to make nerfs, look at the life of the dragon, its been a roller coaster of up and down in power
and none of the changes it has faced have had anything to do with new mechs
the timberwolf was not nerfed because the Cauldron-Born is coming, it was nerfed because it is a GOD , even after its nerfs its still to strong, it will get more changes in the future up and down, just like the dragon

this game does NOT have a subscription fee or player upkeep costs
it does NOT have a shelf or by in price
it does NOT have any game play hard pay walls
it does NOT have any paid expansions (and wont ever)

there is ZERO pay to win in MWO
there is lots of pay to get it faster
there is lots of pay to look pretty
there is some pay to earn a bit more play money per game
there is also pay to be a little different (heros)

there are absolutely zero items you are required to own that can only be acquired for real money
even mech bays can be gotten for free but you start with 4 and 12 trial mechs so its not like you even need more as a new player

however you know what PGI has ?
huge real world upkeep costs
staff
servers
insurances
advertising
internet
amenities, electricity, water, gas
rent
licensing
software
external support for issues out of their company
the list goes on and on

PGI need LOTS of income to continue MWO
so selling new mechs makes more sense than anything else

yet you can play their game 100% for free, every day until they shut the doors
you can win as often as the player who spent $10,000 on the game
in all likely hood the free player will win more because they spend more time on single mechs and have learnt how to milk every c-bill worth out of each chassis they own

oh but wait this new mech is better than something else , its pay to win right ?
no, its still just pay for early access

any mechs superiority is purely subjective
this grass hopper you claim is OP, lets see how fast you die when you find your self inside a tunnel facing down a ballistic brawler of equal weight, your high hard points will be useless, your lack of arm weapons a fatal flaw and jumpjets or twist degree will be irrelevant

sure it might be better at hill humping that some mechs, but a dual gauss jagger will still remove your face from 1200m
guess what, you can get that for 100% free
all those nerfed timberwolfs will destroy your "OP" grasshopper in mere moments

the new Grasshopper might be OP in your eyes because it fits your playstyle better than the others, however not everybody plays like you do and for them the new mech will be bad
look at hunchback pilots, they all have a favorite, they all swear theirs is the best and they can all "prove" it with screen shots of massive kills and scores
but they are all just hunchbacks and a non hunchback pilot will see them as all the same

PGI have done an outstanding job of making each variant feel different from its brothers and each mech feel different again with out being straight out superior to each other
everybody has their favorites, everybody has a mech they feel is OP but isnt because it dies just as much as anything else

selling mechs and variants are PGI's primary source of income
it makes huge amounts of sense
they are not going to stop trying finding new ways to sell us things
and nore should they
because selling things is how PGI keep funding the game

you do not have to buy a thing, ever
but those that do allow everybody else to play

[Bishop Steiner]

TKSax, on 02 June 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

If that grasshopper is better than the other grasshoppers and you are unable to get it another way than with cash then it is P2W, TBR-A, (Debatable now with the neg quirks) GRF-2N are other examples of possaible P2W since they are clearly better than the existing chassis (DWF-S, was definitely P2W for a while). Dragon Slayer was definitely P2W for a long time.

If you defending by saying its will be available in a few months that's not really a good defense. MWO is not a p2w game, but some p2w elements sneak in from time to time. I have that already released chassis have extra variants in the gift store that are only available there for months. A week or two I would understand 2 to 3 months for a chassis that is already in game is stupid. I am sort of ok with the way mech packs work (all though Wave 1 when it first came out was totally P2W), I get that earl access thing with New Mechs, but the gift store thing with existing chassis annoys me to no end.

that's a fallacious argument, and you know it.

Doesn't matter if it is the "best" Griffin, or Hunchback, or whatever. Is it the best in it's class? Are there other mediums and heavies better than it? Etc. If a paywall mech is clearly the best in it's class, then yes, you have a P2W argument. Just being the best of it's type? Meh. That shifts every time the Meta does. And sometimes, it's going to be a Paymech that get lucky.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

IraqiWalker, on 02 June 2015 - 07:10 PM, said:

No, P2W is purchasing a massive advantage. Can you tell me what it is that this grasshopper can do, that no other mech in the game can do? Or compare to? I'm pretty sure it loses in the energy boating wars to the Stalker, and Timberwolf. Easily. Maybe even to the Hellbringer.

It's pay for early access.

Yes, you can't buy heroes, but not a single one of them qualifies as P2W. Some got close. The Dragonslayer for a while was pretty close to being P2W, then PGI nuked it from orbit.

In competitive game like this, any edge of advantage accesed only by $ is P2W.
There is nothing like "massive" requirement. It is or it is not, even if it is by small margin.
In MWO you got more then enough temporaly P2W: Dragonslayer, Ember, Clans etc. and we still got cherrys like huggin just to name one that is waiting in his marketting life cycle for a nerv bat.
Im talking about not just this Hopper, in matter of fact I didnt look at it yet. But then you got now those new IS ECM mechs. You call it early access, someone can call it temporaly P2W. You bay mechs that are OP for a while and then when they finally come out for CBs they get nerv bat, of course is coincidence one would say, but so many times?

[the wr3ck]

It is pay to win because they release over quirked or overpowered mechs. Early buyers get to play them. Then when they are for c bills several months later they are nerfed and the new overpowered mechs are out. Your an idiot if you can't see that. Your also throwing your money away on 120$ plus mech packs. The price points compared to other games are crazy. PGI needs to be more upfront with the mechs they plan to sell and make them all available instead of holding some for top tier purchases. I've bought phoenix all the clan packs and the first resistance pack. I don't want to hear anything about supporting then game. I'm not supporting this merry go round system they have of bait and switch with the quirks. I belive others are also tired of these tactics. It's only you fan boy brown noses that keep sucking up to them.

[TKSax]

Bishop Steiner, on 02 June 2015 - 07:52 PM, said:

that's a fallacious argument, and you know it.

Doesn't matter if it is the "best" Griffin, or Hunchback, or whatever. Is it the best in it's class? Are there other mediums and heavies better than it? Etc. If a paywall mech is clearly the best in it's class, then yes, you have a P2W argument. Just being the best of it's type? Meh. That shifts every time the Meta does. And sometimes, it's going to be a Paymech that get lucky.

No its not its my opinion, and obviously you disagree, best in class is still something that is nice to have for somethings and some situations(cw) Griffin with ECM slots well in drop decks, which of course comes into play in CW. TBR-A some are still saying it is the best Timber and everyone agrees it is the best heavy, and everyone said it would be the best Timber before it came out... and pgi pay walled it any way so it was not "lucky" it is the best. Everyone knew it would be.

Now I would disagree with the wr3ck that PGI introduces stuff that is OP on purpose, clearly clan wave 2 and the first resistance pack are proof of that. I believe part of the problem is PGI really is not getting/listening to feed back from really good Top Tier players (TBR-A is a good example) and mechs come out that are OP, then they have to be adjusted. The TBR/CROW definitely needed some more adjusting

Edited by TKSax, 02 June 2015 - 08:29 PM.

[Sparks Murphey]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 02 June 2015 - 08:02 PM, said:

In competitive game like this, any edge of advantage accesed only by $ is P2W.
There is nothing like "massive" requirement. It is or it is not, even if it is by small margin.
In MWO you got more then enough temporaly P2W: Dragonslayer, Ember, Clans etc. and we still got cherrys like huggin just to name one that is waiting in his marketting life cycle for a nerv bat.
Im talking about not just this Hopper, in matter of fact I didnt look at it yet. But then you got now those new IS ECM mechs. You call it early access, someone can call it temporaly P2W. You bay mechs that are OP for a while and then when they finally come out for CBs they get nerv bat, of course is coincidence one would say, but so many times?

Well, I guess the "any edge of advantage argument" "in a competitive game" rings true. Let's consider a hypothetical:

Me: "Hey, DHB competitive drop commander, I just bought myself a Grasshopper -5P!"
DHBCDC: "...That's nice, Sparks, but we're doing some competitive drops today. Can you get in a Timber Wolf or Stormcrow, please?"
Me: "But I PAID for it!"
DHBCDC: "Is it a Timber Wolf?"
Me: "...no. It's a Grasshopper."
DHBCDC: "Then it's twice the size, half the firepower and probably slower than a Timber Wolf, unless you made it more fragile than a Timber Wolf. Go spend some c-bills on a Timber Wolf."

Yeah, I don't think it's going to cut it.

[NephyrisX]

the wr3ck, on 02 June 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

. It's only you fan boy brown noses that keep sucking up to them.

Because extreme arguments totally legitimize your case.

Keep on hyperboling. This amuses me.

Edited by NephyrisX, 02 June 2015 - 08:38 PM.

[Scratx]

the wr3ck, on 02 June 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

It is pay to win because they release over quirked or overpowered mechs. Early buyers get to play them. Then when they are for c bills several months later they are nerfed and the new overpowered mechs are out. Your an idiot if you can't see that. Your also throwing your money away on 120$ plus mech packs. The price points compared to other games are crazy. PGI needs to be more upfront with the mechs they plan to sell and make them all available instead of holding some for top tier purchases. I've bought phoenix all the clan packs and the first resistance pack. I don't want to hear anything about supporting then game. I'm not supporting this merry go round system they have of bait and switch with the quirks. I belive others are also tired of these tactics. It's only you fan boy brown noses that keep sucking up to them.

... I don't recall the last time they did an overpowered or overquirked mech. In fact, the few that are overquirked were so because they were that bad they needed that to get good. (and now it's debatable whether some of them don't need a nerf)

And frankly? As long as they do any sort of "promotion" such as this of giving additional unreleased variants to people who buy their stuff early or something, somebody is going to think at least one of those variants is OP or some crap like that, no matter how true that is or is not. (hey, you seem to be the only one who thinks that grasshopper is OP... *hint* )

I don't think they should stop it just because somebody thinks X is OP and goes to the forums rail against it, really.

[ArchAngelWC]

Ultimatum X, on 02 June 2015 - 04:27 PM, said:

With all of the really strong mechs out there, I don't think I'd call this GRH pay to win.


However, PGI very clearly saved the most optimized chassis for the Gift Store and did not put it into the pack that people pre-ordered.

This isn't the first time they've done this either.

TBR-A, DWF-S, WHK-C, etc.



You might think it not having arm mounts is some kind of a detriment, but every play that plays metabuilds sees purely ablaitive arms that you can shave for extra tonnage - and a CT you can better conceal while you poke with 4 or 5 high energy mounts.


The sky isn't falling, but this isn't a coincidence either.

everytime I hit the JJ's in my DWF-S I think of this,

[IraqiWalker]

the wr3ck, on 02 June 2015 - 08:15 PM, said:

It is pay to win because they release over quirked or overpowered mechs. Early buyers get to play them. Then when they are for c bills several months later they are nerfed and the new overpowered mechs are out. Your an idiot if you can't see that. Your also throwing your money away on 120$ plus mech packs. The price points compared to other games are crazy. PGI needs to be more upfront with the mechs they plan to sell and make them all available instead of holding some for top tier purchases. I've bought phoenix all the clan packs and the first resistance pack. I don't want to hear anything about supporting then game. I'm not supporting this merry go round system they have of bait and switch with the quirks. I belive others are also tired of these tactics. It's only you fan boy brown noses that keep sucking up to them.

Dude, take a chill pill. You're overactive, and I feel like veins are gonna pop in your head any minute now. Just accept that you are wrong on this one. the 5P is not P2W.

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Just few months ago.

Sparks Murphey, on 02 June 2015 - 08:30 PM, said:

Well, I guess the "any edge of advantage argument" "in a competitive game" rings true. Let's consider a hypothetical:

Me: "Hey, DHB competitive drop commander, I just bought myself a Dragon Slayer !"
DHBCDC: "...That's nice, Sparks, but we're doing some competitive drops today. Can you get in a Timber Wolf or Stormcrow, please? Dragon Slayer is not meta anymore.
Me: "But I PAID for it!"
DHBCDC: "Is it a Timber Wolf?"
Me: "...no. It's a Dragon Slayer."
DHBCDC: "Then it's nerved to the ground, half the firepower and probably slower than a Timber Wolf. Go spend some $ on a Timber Wolf, if you want to play with us."

Yeah, I don't think it's going to cut it.

Soon you will probably see something similar just change name of mechs. Timber for Cauldron Born, Dragon Slayer for Timber.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 03 June 2015 - 10:05 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 02 June 2015 - 08:51 PM, said:

Just few mounths ago.

Soon you will probably see something similar just change name of mechs. Timber for Cauldron Born, Dragon Slayer for Timber.

Thats called META SHIFT and happens to non "P2W"(which are unicorns and dont exist other then in fairy tales) mechs as well...

Stalker? FS9's? (other then the Ember now)

You are just putting more holes in your argument the more you talk.

Edited by DarthRevis, 02 June 2015 - 09:11 PM.

[Dr Hobo]

I fail to see an issue with the new GRH.

Wanna know why? Because that wave of the Resistance pack is so bland and cookie cutter. It's an idiot proof pack that is fine stock(sans the usual endo/DHS mandatory upgrades) This brings some life to that pack. Is it op? I doubt it.

[Aresye]

the wr3ck, on 02 June 2015 - 04:07 PM, said:

Pgi continues to screw even paying customers. This newest grasshopper is 10 times better than the rest. It's the only one with complete extra armor on all parts and also has the best laser quirks with 10 percent less laser duration. PGI continues to sell players mech packs while holding the best version back to make players pay even more after they buy a package. Several other examples are the timberwolf with high laser mounts, energy dire wolf with jumpjets, or ecm cataphract. I would think most players with a brain are getting tired of this business practice. I'm pretty sure the new grasshopper will be nerfed as soon as pgi want players to buy a new mech pack. I am done supporting this business practice. I've been done since the timber energy shoulder release and nerf,even though I didn't buy that. I haven't bought any resistance 2 mechs either. Only reason I didn't cancel clan 3 was because of the shadowcat.

Could be worse.

Instead of releasing a better version for CBills, they could just make all your bought mechs useless.

[Parnage Winters]

On one hand you can never find a real set definition for pay 2 win.

For some it's something as simple as an XP boost in a store, for others it'd take them literally selling items unobtainable in game. There is no set definition for pay2win. It's kind of like obscenity in that regard you know it when you see it and some peoples tolerance will obviously vary.

Having said that, the easiest I've found is how respectful is the store and the options in said store to the players be they free or paid. If a store is selling things no one else can get without paying that do in fact provide a different way to play it's not inconceivable to think the game is selling power. It's disrespecting to some free players and to a paying player it's just more money they have to throw down to use something that perhaps is just a minor change but it's still something they want and are willing to pay for.

Honestly with all these extra variants being pushed in it seems like they're nickel and diming people who buy this stuff doubly so for clan variants where you essentially only want an omnipod. That just seems silly to pay that much for a part of a mech or a mech variant that honestly is only mildy different. Then you look at the drastic increase in time between gift shop to mc to credits and yeah that's kinda crap. This wouldn't be a problem if they had continued with the old method of week delay between mc to credits but for whatever reason they've decided to abandon it. Most likely because it sells more mechs for cash.

Is this all pay 2 win? Eh, not really.
Does it leave a poor taste in my mouth? Yeah, I feel like they want to strangle every cent out of me for variant parts that should of been bonuses for early adopters in the first place. This becomes even more distasteful when you see the current state of the game and wonder where the hell all the money is going. They can't even keep there site updated but they want me to pay how much for a omnipod?

[JC Daxion]

TKSax, on 02 June 2015 - 07:40 PM, said:

If that grasshopper is better than the other grasshoppers and you are unable to get it another way than with cash then it is P2W,

No, because it will be for C-bills, and as others have said, it isn't better it is just different. Perhaps for some it might be better, but that is personal opinion. There are so many great mechs in this game, having to get one a bit later for c-bills, is not a big deal at all. I've paid 60 bucks on the game, and have played for about 2 years now, and have 52 mechs.. certainly not pay to win, or pay to have fun to me.


If you wan't to call releasing mechs for MC to people that buy with real cash PTW, then i dunno what to tell you, cause i kill mechs all the time, especially when they get released for a good month or two while everyone is leveling them up. It is more like Pay to loose for a while anyway.. Nothing like farming mechs with no unlocks for fun PUG times!

Edited by JC Daxion, 03 June 2015 - 12:39 AM.