204 replies to this topic

[Mechteric]

Who gives a flying raven's butt what weapons people want to bring to combat. It's the pilot that counts.


I guess I'm saying don't hate the player, hate the game.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:18 AM, said:

Well depending on the number of missiles they bring, Soaking isn't what they are there for.



This isn't meant to be on teh front line or even near the front line, and its a solid assault Mech.

This isn't the same as TT where you build a force like that.


This is a game of 12v12.


Each team has finite armor/health - everyone needs to soak damage.


No one is issued a specific mech, a specific build - so anyone building a mech that can't soak any damage at all is basically removing some portion of the team's overall health pool.


If that's an assault mech, it's an even greater proportional loss of the health pool.



Every mech in this game supports other mechs, and we do that primarily through our firepower and our available armor.



To be a mech that doesn't intended to soak any damage at all - you better be prepared to do like 2x the damage and kills of the best mechs on your team.

Those guys did damage, got kills and soaked bullets.

That's the full pie, can the LRM-hide mech make up for not pulling their weight in the soaking bullets portion? Usually, not even remotely close.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 June 2015 - 09:23 AM.

[Templar Dane]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:13 AM, said:

To hide in teh back and take shots at range?

A lot of medium mechs are faster than a kitfox. Anything they send at you will outrun and destroy the kitfox. If you're going to do it right, you need to be behind the enemy line. If they chase you you need the speed to GTFO.

The lynx can sorta do it but it's what, one ERPPC or one ERLL?

[Joseph Mallan]

lordtzar, on 04 June 2015 - 09:19 AM, said:

Well, as a spider pilot I can say the first thing I do is find the enemy team and target all of them for the scouting bonus and then rake a laser across the entire enemy team for an easy 10-12 assists. Damage isn't usually going to be high, so you gotta get the cbills where you can. I then focus on shooting them in the back until I get chased off.

You'd be surprised how effective the harassment can be. Once you've stripped the back armor off they aren't going to risk getting shot in the back again and they'll more often than not back up into a corner and are useless right up until my team finds them and 8v1s the guy. Sometimes they'll chase the squirrel. At the very least it'll maintain parity by having to send a mech to chase you off.

Only one thing that bothers me about your statement. I understand the logic, its just not mine.

Ultimatum X, on 04 June 2015 - 09:22 AM, said:

This isn't the same as TT where you build a force like that.


This is a game of 12v12.


Each team has finite armor/health - everyone needs to soak damage.


No one is issued a specific mech, a specific build - so anyone building a mech that can't soak any damage at all is basically removing some portion of the team's overall health pool.


If that's an assault mech, it's an even greater proportional loss of the health pool.



Every mech in this game supports other mechs, and we do that primarily through our firepower and our available armor.



To be a mech that doesn't intended to soak any damage at all - you better be prepared to do like 2x the damage and kills of the best mechs on your team.

Those guys did damage, got kills and soaked bullets.

That's the full pie, can the LRM-hide mech make up for not pulling their weight in the soaking bullets portion? Usually, not even remotely close.

Its not a game like that cause nobody plays it that way. Don't blame the game blame the players.

lordtzar, on 04 June 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

A lot of medium mechs are faster than a kitfox. Anything they send at you will outrun and destroy the kitfox. If you're going to do it right, you need to be behind the enemy line. If they chase you you need the speed to GTFO.

The lynx can sorta do it but it's what, one ERPPC or one ERLL?

Odd why would i want to have to go through the enemy to get to safety? That isn't a good strategy.

[Ultimax]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:24 AM, said:

Its not a game like that cause nobody plays it that way. Don't blame the game blame the players.

No, it's not a game like that because it is 12v12.


Is every game of Player A vs. Player B on TT 12 mechs vs. 12 mechs?

Or do you purchase units with a points cost system? Where some mechs are cheap and plentiful and others are elite and expensive?



This is not that game, that's why it doesn't work like that.



Also people hide in the back all the time, they and their team usually lose - because soaking bullets is everyone's responsibility.


I hate when I have LRM-hiders on MY team, because they do not fully contribute.

I'm OK when people have LRMs and understand they need to gain their own LOS and their own Position and soak bullets just like the rest of us.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 June 2015 - 09:28 AM.

[Revis Volek]

CapperDeluxe, on 04 June 2015 - 09:21 AM, said:

Who gives a flying raven's butt what weapons people want to bring to combat. It's the pilot that counts.


I guess I'm saying don't hate the player, hate the game RVN.

FTFY~! lolz

[nehebkau]

<TEAM> "ECM Raven 3L stay with the group and give us ECM. Don't go off and snipe people"

<RAVEN 3L> "Ok I'll Try that"

<Raven peeks over hill, cant back up because DWF has butthumped him> [raven dead]
<Raven stands in the middle of the group -- gets Critted by Friendly fire> [raven dead]
<Raven stays towards the back providing ECM and occasionally gets a shot> [Raven gets 50 damage and team complains]
<Raven Attacks with friendlies trying to be productive -- Gets hit by FF LuRMS, lasers, AC> [Raven Dead]
<Raven moves between middle and back of the group -- gets swarmed by enemy lights blown apart by FF and Enemy fire> [Raven Dead]

<TEAM> "ECM Raven 3L stay with the group and give us ECM. Don't go off and snipe people"

<RAVEN 3L> "Screw that, you scrubs will just get me killed and ill earn no cbills"

[Templar Dane]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Only one thing that bothers me about your statement. I understand the logic, its just not mine.

Hey, it's like 6500 cbills per assist. Spending a few seconds securing those assists makes all the difference when you aren't deathballing with the rest of the team.

If you skip that step you'd likely end up with half the assists, and half the cbills.

[Wintersdark]

Yup.

As to the OP... Seriously, the bad Light Supar Snipars piss me off immensely

Its not that light snipers can't be good - they can be valuable additions to a team. But so very often what is actually happening is you get a distinctly poor player who's simply hiding and ineffectively poking from absurd range where his vaunted ERLL or if your super lucky 2 ERLL's are doing roughly half damage, hosing it all over the target mech and all the terrain vaguely near it.

Those lights - the bad, cowardly ones - are also almost always the ones who end then losing match hiding agut down Inna corner, too.

Don't get me wrong, I saw an awesome video some time ago where a (prequirk) 3L with a pair of ERLL's took a matches from 1v6 to a win via actually fighting, as opposed to randomly ineffectively poking and hiding.

[Joseph Mallan]

Ultimatum X, on 04 June 2015 - 09:27 AM, said:

No, it's not a game like that because it is 12v12..

on TT every company had 2 archers.

And as a commando I rolled out games with 12 on 12 with 12 players per side at Conventions and everyone seemed to be able to play their role with no problem. So I don't accept it's the games fault MW:O players can't play roles.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 04 June 2015 - 09:41 AM.

[Piney II]

LOL, nehebkau!

[Yosharian]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 08:55 AM, said:

Being sneakier, and have better eye hand coordination that the next player.

Neither of things are affected by the mech you drive. Therefore OP's argument is invalid by this criteria.

[Joseph Mallan]

lordtzar, on 04 June 2015 - 09:36 AM, said:

Hey, it's like 6500 cbills per assist. Spending a few seconds securing those assists makes all the difference when you aren't deathballing with the rest of the team.

If you skip that step you'd likely end up with half the assists, and half the cbills.

Thats what I said. I understand your logic. Its not a criticism.

[MeiSooHaityu]

PunisherMark, on 04 June 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

The question should be, &quot;Why does such a little mech get 3 Large lasers?&quot;

Because it fits *shrug*.

I prefer to run the Raven 3L shorter range anyway because the ECM hides my movements allowing me to sneak in and not generate too much unwanted attention.

As for another small light like the Urbanmech, it is always going to be slow due to it's low engine cap. So, if you therefore have a lot of weight you can dedicate to weapons, might as well make them big weapons like LLasers, especially since the have range and range can be a good friend when slow and light.

A Raven 3L can be fast and sneaky (ECM) so I'd rather use it closer range. Maybe if I really wanted a Raven sniper, I'd consider the 2X.

Maybe you could make the argument that lights shouldn't be able to practically fire groups of LLasers, but if you're in an Urbie, what else are you going to use all that free tonnage for, when the engine can't take up the room lol.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yosharian, on 04 June 2015 - 09:37 AM, said:

Neither of things are affected by the mech you drive. Therefore OP's argument is invalid by this criteria.

I thought thats what I said?

[Templar Dane]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:26 AM, said:

Odd why would i want to have to go through the enemy to get to safety? That isn't a good strategy.

Harassment. If you are with the rest of your team, in a place/direction where they're expecting enemy mechs, peeking will get you killed.

You get in behind the enemy team where you can shoot them in the back, you know, the place where they have 1/10th the armor and your shots count for more.

They'll often send multiple mechs to chase you down, either recalling the lighter mechs to deal with you or sending the heavier stuff. While you may not be there, you are 20-35 tons not on the front line and they'll be losing a lot more than that sending multiple mechs. Worst case is they send a firestarter, and it only maintains parity.

There is also the psychological damage inflicted. Fire on them enough and they have to move somewhere you can't hit them. You can corral them into bad positions.

The most common thing that happens is you find their assaults and harass the **** out of them from the rear. They can't ignore you, they have to face you, bringing their frontal armor towards you, keeping them out of the battle for as long as you are there.

[LowSubmarino]

Dunno why anybody would run a raven with 2 erLLs when you can run the shawk 2k with 3 Erlls, better heat, way more damage, a jumpjet, running at 106,9 kph.

Its my best performing mech. But its highly dependent on a team that doesnt keep wandering about aimlessly. On tiny maps and with bad teams its hard to bring the hammer down. If the team has a good position and I can start to shoot freely for a few minutes that mech is a monster.

Then again, I was always in love with the IS er LL. From the first day I played, pre gauss/ppc meta, post gauss/ppc meta, pre jumpsniping, post jumpsniping, pre clans, post clans....till the very last day and the end of times.


If it's not for cw and weight issues I would always choose the 2k. Now and then a raven tries to start sniper wars. But they cant take as much dmg as the shadowhawk and I deal significantly more dmg with better heat dissipation. They always die or run.

Played cw only 4 times I think. Dropped with the 2k as first mech and did most dmg in two out of 4 games. Got 5 kills or so both times I think. And since I always loved being a sniper this is my favoirt mech. Since its the best sniper in the whole friggin game. Only thing that is dangerous is double gauss builds at a distance but you have a good chance there too if you know how to reposition and peekaboooo. Apart from that, at a distance theres nothing to fear if you know which terrain to use. Yoru lasers are mounted so high, the shadowhawk so agile, that you can avoid almost all dmg if you are good.

The raven doesnt even compare to that.

Little off topic. But honestly I dont see that many raven snipers. Really not many.

I see some wade into brawls with 3 erlls sometimes haha. Glass sniper running into a brawl.

I always smile though when a madcat or stormcrow try to outsnipe me with clan er lls haha. You can just lazily step behind cover. You wont get much dmg even if you move slowly. I even mock them sometimes.

God...the clan erlls in those 2 mechs are a joke now. They could just make it 10 second burn time to make a point 'This weapon sux hard....try to understand already.'

[Joseph Mallan]

lordtzar, on 04 June 2015 - 09:47 AM, said:

Harassment. If you are with the rest of your team, in a place/direction where they're expecting enemy mechs, peeking will get you killed.

You get in behind the enemy team where you can shoot them in the back, you know, the place where they have 1/10th the armor and your shots count for more.

They'll often send multiple mechs to chase you down, either recalling the lighter mechs to deal with you or sending the heavier stuff. While you may not be there, you are 20-35 tons not on the front line and they'll be losing a lot more than that sending multiple mechs. Worst case is they send a firestarter, and it only maintains parity.

There is also the psychological damage inflicted. Fire on them enough and they have to move somewhere you can't hit them. You can corral them into bad positions.

The most common thing that happens is you find their assaults and harass the **** out of them from the rear. They can't ignore you, they have to face you, bringing their frontal armor towards you, keeping them out of the battle for as long as you are there.

Ok again I see where you are coming from. I would personally prefer to flank from one side or the other than the rear. So I don't have to go so far away from friendly fire support.

[Templar Dane]

Joseph Mallan, on 04 June 2015 - 09:54 AM, said:

Ok again I see where you are coming from. I would personally prefer to flank from one side or the other than the rear. So I don't have to go so far away from friendly fire support.

As long as you've got a big engine [at least 130kph] you'll do fine. With the whole nascar thing it's usually pretty easy to know where the enemy team is going to be and you can race to the good spots without being seen. Just gotta have your escape planned out if/when that firstarter comes after you.

Mordor is the crappiest map for it. River ****** is crap, and forest colony can be tricky.

Forest colony is weird, it's either really really good or really really bad, depending on which way the enemy team goes and which side you spawn on. Sometimes you can slip through the cave when you spawn on the lower end and go up to their spawn and shoot them in the back for days. Sometimes they spread out too well and there's nowhere you can go.

[Joseph Mallan]

Well it doesn't matter how fast I go, I die ridiculously easy in lights.