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Why Do We Even Have Armor?


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#1 Denal Ryker

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:28 AM

Before I say anything more: yes, this is a rage post. Possibly profanity-laden.

Why do we even have armor now? In my Hellbringer, Orion; hell, even my assault mechs might as well be wet paper bags than eighty foot tall hulking war machines. A mech kitted with two or three medium lasers at just outside optimum range will zap straight through my armor and still have the punch to damage the piece underneath. Seriously, why should I bother? Three shots from a couple of lasers brings down the maxed-out front of my Hellbringer with absolutely no trouble.

While I'm on the topic of that, I can do the exact same thing and zap someone with four medium lasers, usually in the arm, inside optimum range, and I get a yellow, maybe a yellow-orange damage result. Is there some sort of secret I'm missing out on? A Dire Wolf can knock out my maxed-armor Atlas in the torso inside 15 seconds, but if the reversed situation occured I would barely scratch them.

And the ******* laser boats. They're everywhere. I'll go matches where I'm getting shot across the map by several mechs at once with large lasers, and if I'm in a slow mover, I'm screwed! The way it seems to stand for me right now, those large lasers, even medium lasers, act as if there's no armor to my 'Mech and just outright core me if I'm unlucky enough to not have cover.

I spent $80 on this game, and the majority of the time it's not fun because everyone sits back and laughs as they lance out with blue beams.

#2 The Great Unwashed

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:30 AM

View PostDenal Ryker, on 11 June 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

A mech kitted with two or three medium lasers at just outside optimum range will zap straight through my armor and still have the punch to damage the piece underneath.


Hmm, no. You should have about 74 hitpoints of CT armor on a Hellbringer, so that is 10 shots with clan medium lasers, excluding hitreg problems. Only once the armor is gone, and only then, will your internals take damage. There isn't a single weapon in MWO that does internal damage while you still have armor.

What you might try is torso twisting: as soon as people start hitting you with laser beams, roll your torso left or right; you will distributed the damage over multiple sections and live longer. Do not present yourself too well to mechs outside your range. It's the most important thing to learn when you want to survive.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 11 June 2015 - 06:40 AM.


#3 Vxheous

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:42 AM

I am guessing that you do not front-load your armor, even with your exaggeration in regards to damage from 2-3 medium lasers

#4 MoonUnitBeta

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:46 AM

IMO, PGI should just pevlic thrust the timeline and throw in reactive and reflective armors.
When laservomit is prominent, we can just throw on reflective armor.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 11 June 2015 - 06:49 AM.


#5 Denal Ryker

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:51 AM

View PostThe Great Unwashed, on 11 June 2015 - 06:30 AM, said:


Hmm, no. You should have about 74 hitpoints of CT armor on a Hellbringer, so that is 10 shots with clan medium lasers, excluding hitreg problems. Only once the armor is gone, and only then, will your internals take damage. There isn't a single weapon in MWO that does internal damage while you still have armor.

What you might try is torso twisting: as soon as people start hitting you with laser beams, roll your torso left or right; you will distributed the damage over multiple sections and live longer. Do not present yourself too well to mechs outside your range. It's the most important thing to learn when you want to survive.


That's fine and dandy if I've seen them shoot first, though. I'll take a hit, get rocked, look down at my damage and get audio confirmation of "right/left torso/arm critical damage". It's maddening. I'll look in the direction and there's just one guy sitting out of range of my weapons.

View PostVxheous Kerensky, on 11 June 2015 - 06:42 AM, said:

I am guessing that you do not front-load your armor, even with your exaggeration in regards to damage from 2-3 medium lasers


Actually, practically overnight it seemed as if any armor I had was ineffective. Before I could survive a few hits, now I'm getting my arms and side torsos blown out in seconds. And how am I not "front loading" my armor when I can't add any more to the front because I've hit its max?

Unless many lasers form into one beam, I only saw two or three.

#6 Mystere

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:52 AM

Another day, another ranting "I got killed by ..." thread. :rolleyes:

#7 The Great Unwashed

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:57 AM

View PostDenal Ryker, on 11 June 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Unless many lasers form into one beam, I only saw two or three.


Many mechs have their energy weapons really close together and it is difficult to tell how many lasers are actually coming for you. So, it's possible you get hit by e.g., 1 LPL and 5 ERML for 48 damage. A Warhawk with 4 LPLs will do 56 damage with only two visible shots, one from each arm(blue). That really hurts :) That will core you out in about 2 or 3 shots if you give your opponent to opportunity to keep hitting your CT for the entire beam duration.

Also, once your armor is gone, most clan lasers will also start doing critical damage to you internals by their targeting computers, making life even more miserable. I suggest that when you use lasers yourself to throw a TC mk I on your builds. Not everyone realizes it, but when you do critical damage, 15% of that damage is also added to your internal structure. The changes for critical damage are <50%, but it does add up!

When you lock the enemy, once you get the paper doll info, you see how many weapons he has. That will give you a good indication.

Learning how to twist and distribute damage is your best way to deal with nearly all types of fire. When I just started the game I felt really frustrated by people turning away and apparently not dying at all. Now I know the trick. And I really like people not twisting because I can deliver a lot of damage to a single component while I turn slightly yellow all over.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 11 June 2015 - 07:04 AM.


#8 Templar Dane

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:57 AM

Welcome to power creep, where the TKK keeps on getting lower and where broad nerfs are required but the community wouldn't understand because they don't want "their" mech nerfed.

#9 Paigan

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:58 AM

Hehe, the funny thing about this thread is: It is not as flamy or whiny as it might sound at first.

It is rather pretty realistic.


Look at predator animals:
Do they have "armor"? None. They hide, scout, sneak and then either strike or piss off.
If they get wounded during the attack, well, GG. Game over.
Instead of growing armor that slows them down, being faster, sneakier, deadlier with still nor armor is almost always the better choice.

Or jets, battleships, submarines, etc.
They all are equipped with one-shot-kill weaponry that makes armor moreless useless anway.

Okay there are exceptions like elephants or knights or soldiers with kevlar armor.
But in general, the game is called "kill on first strike", not "tank ALL TEH BULLETZ".

#10 Tsuki Ookami vas Mugunghwa

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 06:58 AM

i'm just gonna say: screenshot/fraps or it didn't happen.

until then i either go with you failed to be aware of other opponents who shot you as well or you just extremely exaggerate to fuel the rage.

#11 Templar Dane

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:04 AM

View PostPaigan, on 11 June 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Hehe, the funny thing about this thread is: It is not as flamy or whiny as it might sound at first.

It is rather pretty realistic.


Look at predator animals:
Do they have "armor"? None. They hide, scout, sneak and then either strike or piss off.
If they get wounded during the attack, well, GG. Game over.
Instead of growing armor that slows them down, being faster, sneakier, deadlier with still nor armor is almost always the better choice.

Or jets, battleships, submarines, etc.
They all are equipped with one-shot-kill weaponry that makes armor moreless useless anway.

Okay there are exceptions like elephants or knights or soldiers with kevlar armor.
But in general, the game is called "kill on first strike", not "tank ALL TEH BULLETZ".


In the battletech universe the whole reason mechs rule the battlefield is because armor tech surpassed weapon tech, coupled with the mobility.

Suddenly armor matters, a single missile from an aircraft doesn't take down the armored unit on the ground. While aircraft and tanks still exist, nothing has the combination of survivability and mobility that the mechs have.

#12 The Great Unwashed

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:07 AM

And battleships were designed to absorb massive amounts of damage and frequently did. Smaller ships didn't stand a chance.

Edited by The Great Unwashed, 11 June 2015 - 07:07 AM.


#13 MeiSooHaityu

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:07 AM

Just pull the armor off if you don't think it's necessary, it won't bother me at all. Just don't be on my team :)

#14 Dino Might

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:42 AM

OP, got a fix for you. Play a Locust. Then you don't bother worrying about your armor or lack thereof.

#15 Wrayeth

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 07:55 AM

View PostDenal Ryker, on 11 June 2015 - 06:51 AM, said:

Actually, practically overnight it seemed as if any armor I had was ineffective. Before I could survive a few hits, now I'm getting my arms and side torsos blown out in seconds.


You may have been moved into a higher ELO bracket with better opponents.

Quote

And how am I not &quot;front loading&quot; my armor when I can't add any more to the front because I've hit its max?


You can reduce the back armor to increase the front armor. :)

Quote

Unless many lasers form into one beam, I only saw two or three.


Many weapons fired from one location, such as an arm or a side torso, can look like just one beam when you're not at point blank. For instance, when my Dire Wolf Prime shoots someone with its primary weapons, it probably looks like just 2 ER medium lasers when, in actuality, it's 6. It's not doing 14 damage, it's doing 42.

#16 Felbombling

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:01 AM

The main problem I see is finding balance between enough armour to create a five minute circle strafe situation against a single opponent and a fifteen second vaporize situation under the guns of multiple Mechs. Personally, I think the weapon recycle rate is way too fast for something that is touted as 'The thinking mans shooter', but whatever. Betty hardly has time to update you on that heat sink you just lost before you implode under the right circumstances.

#17 MechaBattler

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:06 AM

View PostPaigan, on 11 June 2015 - 06:58 AM, said:

Hehe, the funny thing about this thread is: It is not as flamy or whiny as it might sound at first.

It is rather pretty realistic.


Look at predator animals:
Do they have "armor"? None. They hide, scout, sneak and then either strike or piss off.
If they get wounded during the attack, well, GG. Game over.
Instead of growing armor that slows them down, being faster, sneakier, deadlier with still nor armor is almost always the better choice.

Or jets, battleships, submarines, etc.
They all are equipped with one-shot-kill weaponry that makes armor moreless useless anway.

Okay there are exceptions like elephants or knights or soldiers with kevlar armor.
But in general, the game is called "kill on first strike", not "tank ALL TEH BULLETZ".


I like this game because it isn't a one shot kill kind of game. Even if sometimes it can be pretty close under the right circumstances. There's usually some level of trading or the need to coordinate focus fire.

#18 Nightmare1

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:15 AM

View PostDenal Ryker, on 11 June 2015 - 06:28 AM, said:

A mech kitted with two or three medium lasers at just outside optimum range will zap straight through my armor and still have the punch to damage the piece underneath.


There's your problem right there. If you've got three MLs breaching your fresh armor and coloring your internals, then you don't have enough armor!

Try maxing out the values.

Frankly, I hear a lot of people complaining about being one-shotted but don't see it happening much. Shoot, I was sneaking up behind enemies during the "I Need A Hero" Event with my CN9-YLW to RCT them with an AC/20 and 2xMPLs well within optimal range. Since rear armor is thin, it cut through and damaged their internals, but it never quite killed any of the Mechs I did this to.

My Heavies and Assaults take a lot of damage before going down. If yours aren't, then I'd have to say that it's a personal problem and not a game problem.

Fixes:

1) Fight smarter
2) Equip more armor

#19 Almond Brown

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 08:32 AM

View PostStaggerCheck, on 11 June 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

The main problem I see is finding balance between enough armour to create a five minute circle strafe situation against a single opponent and a fifteen second vaporize situation under the guns of multiple Mechs. Personally, I think the weapon recycle rate is way too fast for something that is touted as 'The thinking mans shooter', but whatever. Betty hardly has time to update you on that heat sink you just lost before you implode under the right circumstances.


It is a Pace of Play thing though. We have 2X armor and 3X weapons fire. The pace is spot on when fighting 1 or 2 Mechs but it just doesn't matter how much armor you have when 4-6 enemy Mechs are all chewing on it at the same time.

An increase in weapons CD across the board now would not be seen in a good light by the Community as a whole I suspect. Being a slow Mech with a slow weapons firing output would simply suck. Not to sure a fast light with an ugly weapons output would be any fun either.

Each to their own I guess. Pace is good now. Just stay away, as best as possible, from those 4-6 on 1 armor munching encounters. :)

Edited by Almond Brown, 11 June 2015 - 08:33 AM.


#20 0bsidion

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Posted 11 June 2015 - 09:18 AM

The TTK in this game is a symptom of translating from a table top game where it was extremely rare for more than one weapon to strike a single component in the course of a round due to hit locations being determined by random dice rolls. This could help even light mechs survive multiple rounds of focus fire.

But in the realm of a FPS, where instead of dice rolls, we can physically aim at and hit the same location with multiple weapons at a fairly high RoF it makes it much easier and faster to kill mechs. There are some things PGI could do to artificially replicate table top randomness, such as making the crosshairs/aim shake when the mech moves and fires, similar to what happens while jump jets are activated.





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