118 replies to this topic

[bad arcade kitty]

it was meant to be played with more powerful ppc, lb and jj than we have in mwo

[Wintersdark]

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2015 - 05:57 PM, said:

I will say this though:

The stock Summoner Prime is kind of fun to pilot. If you just accept that it's going to be sub-par and try to appreciate the small victories, it's kind of fun to play the Summoner the way it was meant to be played.

Don't get me wrong, I think the Summoner is an awesome mech. I'm just frustrated that the lack of Endosteel isn't a balance decision, it's simply an arbitrary 3.5 ton nerf. Those 3.5 tons would make *all* the difference. Hell, swapping it's FF for Endosteel for a 2 ton gain would be enormous and make the Summoner a completely new mech.

[Alistair Winter]

bad arcade kitty, on 13 June 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

it was meant to be played with more powerful ppc, lb and jj than we have in mwo

This is it.

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 06:00 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong, I think the Summoner is an awesome mech. I'm just frustrated that the lack of Endosteel isn't a balance decision, it's simply an arbitrary 3.5 ton nerf. Those 3.5 tons would make *all* the difference. Hell, swapping it's FF for Endosteel for a 2 ton gain would be enormous and make the Summoner a completely new mech.

That's another thing, yeah. PGI not wanting to give FF any advantages over Endo, which is just an arbitrary nerf for the Summoner and the Warhawk, as you say. And they didn't want to give the Summoner any significant weapon buffs either.

[Wintersdark]

Alistair Winter, on 13 June 2015 - 06:04 PM, said:

That's another thing, yeah. PGI not wanting to give FF any advantages over Endo, which is just an arbitrary nerf for the Summoner and the Warhawk, as you say. And they didn't want to give the Summoner any significant weapon buffs either.

Yeah, a substantial weapon buff would work for the Summoner - a major LBX 10 buff, for example, would be very effective. It would work quite well because the Summoner can't stack LBX's (it lacks the tonnage). So, any quirk you give the Summoner is only buffing one LB-10X. Thus, no Dragon or pre-nerf TDR-9S ERPPC issues.

A big LBX buff, and a velocity buff on the CERPPC would make a big difference... But alas.

[lshtaria]

Hasn't Russ already said that FF only clam mechs will be converted to having ES?

I know it's not a lot but it will help.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 05:50 PM, said:

Basically, it's a 70t mech that packs the loadouts you'd expect to see on a 60t IS mech.

For example:

If you trim your armor some, you could mount:

2xcLPL, UAC5 w/ 2.5t ammo. 2.5t. On a UAC5. You'd burn through that in no time at all.

Except no IS mech can field 3x LLAS (equivalent to 2x CLPL) that reach out to 600m.

So perhaps you need to reconsider how you approach clan lasers.



Why do 1x UAC 5 (2.5T Ammo) with 2x CLPLs, when instead you could do 1x UAC 10 (3.5T ammo) + 4x CERMLAS + 3 extra DHS? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...082203c886b3228

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 05:58 PM, said:

Yes, it would be. But it would also be Yet Another Laser Vomit Clan Mech. God, yuck.

Sure, the Stormcrow has two less built in DHS, but at least it can run a Gauss+Laser build with ammo. And the Stormcrow is 15 tons lighter.

Now, I think you're not even trying.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cdbe40d658d06a4


I'll let you figure out where you want to shave armor to fit a MK 1 TC and the 2 extra DHS - that's three tons to make up.


http://mwo.smurfy-ne...10f2dc1eed50652


I'd probably shave from the RA to start, even though the Stormcrow loses those pretty easily.

After that you need to start cutting deep on legs, a bad proposition on a Stormcrow.


EDIT: I forgot to add that the SCR has those Laser burn & recharge negatives, and only one weapon mod available to compensate vs. the two that the SMN gets.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 June 2015 - 06:20 PM.

[Monkey Lover]

Endo and legs are way to big. This mech gets legged more than any light.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 06:10 PM, said:

Except no IS mech can field 3x LLAS (equivalent to 2x CLPL) that reach out to 600m.

Oh, god, I didn't mean that as a Clan Vs. IS argument, please, for the love of god, don't turn this into a clan vs. is debate.

The point of the post wasn't that it was an ideal build or anything, but rather that it's quite limited given the tonnage of the mech vs what you can do on many other clan mechs.

The Summoner's suckiness is directly related to how any build you run on it is better on another mech. It doesn't excel at anything, and it's not a flexible generalist either.

Quote

Why do 1x UAC 5 (2.5T Ammo) with 2x CLPLs, when instead you could do 1x UAC 10 (3.5T ammo) + 4x CERMLAS + 3 extra DHS? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...082203c886b3228

Yeah, as I said, I wasn't trying to show tuned builds, but rather the sadness of the build on a 70t mech.

Hellbringer, 4ERML, ECM, Gauss, 3.5t ammo. HBR-PRIME And it doesn't even have FF!

So, you can upgrade the CUAC10 to a Gauss Rifle (2 tons) and add ECM.


That the Stormcrow and Hellbringer manage to run essentially the same builds and generally better, the Timberwolf and Cauldron Born will run them FAR better (at + and -5t respectively).

That is a problem. The only reason to run a Summoner is if you really love jump jets that are kind of laughable. Yeah, it's the best 70+ ton jumper, but it's still just a 70t mech with 5 JJ's - JJ's are simply too poor in MWO right now.

If JJ's where better, or if ERPPC's didn't suck, or if CUAC's where actually GOOD weapons, the Summoner would be much better off. But they're not.

[ScreamingSkull]

I used the Prime when I first started playing CW and had good results with it. PPCS were useful back then though.

[Wintersdark]

But, ok, I'll concede: Yes, the Medium-class Stormcrow is slightly disadvantaged running the same builds as the Heavy-class Summoner. Slightly.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 June 2015 - 06:38 PM.

[Ultimax]

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Oh, god, I didn't mean that as a Clan Vs. IS argument, please, for the love of god, don't turn this into a clan vs. is debate.

The point of the post wasn't that it was an ideal build or anything, but rather that it's quite limited given the tonnage of the mech vs what you can do on many other clan mechs.

The Summoner's suckiness is directly related to how any build you run on it is better on another mech. It doesn't excel at anything, and it's not a flexible generalist either.

It has to be a Clan vs. IS argument, otherwise your argument becomes "My Summoner isn't one of the best mechs in the game like the TBR & HBR".


That's it, if that's what you want then say it.

Say you want the Summoner to be T1 and as good or better than the TBR & HBR.

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 06:34 PM, said:

Hellbringer, 4ERML, ECM, Gauss, 3.5t ammo. HBR-PRIME And it doesn't even have FF!

Yes, and it is and has been a T1 mech since it arrived.


So please state clearly if that is what you are asking for, you want the Summoner to be a T1 mech, just be honest - don't song and dance around it.


I believe I already covered that in my first post in this thread as well:

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 05:12 PM, said:

TL;DR: It's not as good as the TBR and HBR, and people want the SMN to be as good as those mechs.

I don't care if that's actually what you want, I would never disparage that.


I just want some transparency in the conversation.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 June 2015 - 06:48 PM.

[Cyborne Elemental]

Swap FF for Endo = instantly better.

[Ultimax]

Mister D, on 13 June 2015 - 06:49 PM, said:

Swap FF for Endo = instantly better.

I support this to happen, but an additional 1.24 tons is not really going to change all that much.

Wintersdark, on 13 June 2015 - 06:37 PM, said:

But, ok, I'll concede: Yes, the Medium-class Stormcrow is slightly disadvantaged running the same builds as the Heavy-class Summoner. Slightly.

Yes, slightly.

And the Medium class Stormcrow has more firepower than many IS heavy mechs.

It is hitting way above it's weight class.

If the Summoner could do the same, it would then be more like mech everyone loves to hate.

The Timber Wolf.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 13 June 2015 - 06:55 PM.

[Alistair Winter]

Felt inspired, went out and had a great match with my near-stock Summoner Prime. I've swapped the LRM15 for an LRM10 to get an extra ton of LBX ammo.

[NephyrisX]

I have been using a modified version of the SMN-PRIME, maxing armour, keeping the PPC while swapping out the LRM15 and LBX-10 for an SRM6 and UAC-5 respectively.

Still feels gimped, but it has good survivability and very good mobility for it's class, making it a nice skirmisher mech.

[SaltBeef]

It will probably be a better mech when and IF! the Clan AC's were brought up another notch Now they are just useable but kinda workable. Better Clan AC would benefit this mech and few other, Mr Gargies I am looking at YOU!

Edited by SaltBeef, 13 June 2015 - 07:28 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Jazzbandit1313, on 13 June 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

The JJ's are perfect on this mech. Don't take up too much room, but are amazing for mobility.

They take up five tons. I don't know what game you're playing where five tons is a small amount of weight. That's almost 10% of the 'Mech's total weight. Of course, in MWO 'Mech's are generally required to run full armor at all locations, apart from a few hitbox discrepancies - so those five tons actually take up (just slightly below) 20% of the 'Mech's actual usable "pod" space.

Another way to look at it: Endo-Steel, which is virtually required on 75% of Battlemechs in MWO, would give you 3.5 tons more space on a 70-ton 'Mech like the Summoner. The Summoner uses more of its tonnage on JJs than it would save by taking Endo, and it doesn't even have Endo to offset that fact! So, in terms of how MWO actually works, those jets are functionally costing the 'Mech 8.5 tons, since there is no real justifiable reason to not take Endo on a 70 ton 'Mech with such sparse hardpoints.

And that leads into the other issue for the Summoner - its hardpoints. In BT lore and TT games, the Summoner* acted as a hard-hitting, fast-moving commando element and/or ultimate dueling 'Mech. Ammo went a lot further per ton, the LB 10-X could fire in slug or cluster mode, the Clan ERPPC did all its damage to a single component, and Clan LRMs did full damage even at 0 meters. What you had was a well-rounded weapons platform that was, in a sense, the opposite of the Nova - it mounted three large weapons instead of a bunch of lighter weapons en masse, and was able to use these weapons repeatedly and constantly while jetting around without having to worry about heat.

Doing this in MWO just won't work. The cERPPC only does ten points of its 15 to the hit component. cLRMs spread terribly, and their damage suffers a rapid falloff once you're closer than 120 meters. And finally, the LB 10-X AC can not fire in slug mode - only cluster mode. What was, in TT and lore, a 'Mech that could actually do pinpoint damage better and cooler than other 'Mechs (e.g., the more generally viable Timber Wolf) now does spread damage, and only spread damage, on all its weapons! Not only that, but because of the way PGI has implemented heat mechanics in MWO, it overheats! With only one hot weapon!!! The Summoner Prime in MWO behaves pretty much the exact opposite that it does in TT. That's disappointing.

Even that would be tolerable, though, if you could force the Summoner into at least being viable by going the opposite direction to its lore role. But because of how Omnimech hardpoints work, the Summoner can't even counteract its low available tonnage by mounting multiple smaller weapons. You only get up to four energy hardpoints. You can run five missile hardpoints - but only at the expense of mounting nothing else but a single ballistic, which you'll then be forced to fill with a low-caliber weapon due to all the weight spent on missiles, which defeats the point of using one ballistic hardpoint (as opposed to many) in the first place.

So those are the issues with the Summoner. No Endo, five tons of JJs(which already weighs more than Endo would save), suboptimal hardpoints. I've seen a lot of people recommend simply giving the Summoner a few more energy hardpoints. That would help, a bit, but I don't find it to be an optimal solution at all. It just makes it more similar to other Clan 'Mechs, and I'd prefer it to be distinct. I'd like to see stuff like:

Full arm functionality - let the Summoner arms use Lower Arm Actuators even when mounting ballistics/PPCs
Extreme cERPPC cooling and/or cooldown
cERPPC on a full SMN-Prime (i.e., SMN-Prime CT with all Omnipods being SMN-Prime as well) does full 15 points of damage to one location
MAYBE allow pre-installed heat sinks to be taken out - I find this to be a better option than giving it a straight Endo upgrade

And so on. And, were any of those done, they'd be specific to the Summoner, not Clan-wide.

It should also be noted that there is already a SMN-M (I believe its called) in the gamefiles. PGI just hasn't actually put it in yet. It has a LT with one missile and one energy hardpoint. Again, I don't like the idea of "fixing" the Summoner by simply giving it MOAR HARDPOINTS, as that it makes it less unique - and it also doesn't fix anything since the 'Mech still has really low tonnage. But implementing that one variant, which has already had at least some work done on it, would be a good starting point.

EDIT: Another, and even better fix would be what several here have already pointed out. Make Ferro-Fibrous armor a competitive option against Endo-Steel internal structure. As it is right now, FF saves less weight than ES, and on Battlemech builds it offers no advantage over ES to make up for that, apart from a slightly lower, one-time cost. On Omnimech builds it offers absolutely no advantage whatsoever, since you can't switch one out for the other as you can on Battlemechs. Simply having FF give you the ability to mount higher armor values than what is TT legal, for example, would be enough.

The other thing to fix would be LBX mechanics. PGI really needs to find a way to allow it to fire both slug and cluster ammo, aside from the "invent standard ACs" option they took. Which, incidentally, was originally supposed to be a placeholder...

*In this paragraph, and the one that follows it, I'm specifically talking about the Prime variant.

Edited by Bloodweaver, 13 June 2015 - 07:47 PM.

[Bloodweaver]

Oh, and incidentally: I actually still like the Summoner. It has more character than the TimberGod, and is more fun (for me) than the ECMbringer. It's even more fun ever since they gave it agility quirks, which was one step in the right direction as opposed to simply giving it overdone weapon or durability quirks. But even though I enjoy it I can still see its very, very sub-optimal. It's not in a good place, really.

[InspectorG]

Jazzbandit1313, on 13 June 2015 - 04:48 PM, said:

The JJ's are perfect on this mech. Don't take up too much room, but are amazing for mobility. Hardpoints are just fine. I think people are comparing it to the god tier crow and wolf too much

2 JJ would accomplish about the same freeing up needed tons for weapons/ammo. Only MWO mech that can should take more than 2 JJ is the Spider J because it has NOTHING else to spend tonnage on. Summoner has PLENTY to spend tons on.

The torso B hardpoints are great...you just dont have the tonnage to dual anything other than 5's...which is meh.

LT Missile cannister gets shot off way too easily.

Only has 4 E hardpoints. Gauss+4ERLL is the best general build. SRM30 its 'brawler' build. Gauss+erppc the poptart...which is lame if you dont have poptart skills.

Has Ferro instead of endo...which was a balancing mechanic for BT in regards to BV which MWO doesnt use.

PGI could fix this easily with ST pods that have E hardpoints...but no dice yet.
Could swap in Endo or removable JJ...no dice.

I guess they will quirk it out?