118 replies to this topic

[Zen Idiot]

they should give the thing 360 torso twist to make up for the anemic hardpoints and low podspace.

[InspectorG]

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

I don't care if that's actually what you want, I would never disparage that.


I just want some transparency in the conversation.

IMO, Summoner could easily be a close 2nd to TimbyGod and ECMBringer.

I prefer more Niche. Poptart is fine, the skill ceiling likely would keep that from becoming too popular with the current meta.

I would like MOAR BETTER agility, beam duration, velocity, missile velocity/spread, energy cooldown.../etc.

Quirks that would make it the striker that its gonna have to be.

Unless they unlock JJ or something easy to code.

[FupDup]

It just doesn't have "the feels" to it. It feels like it's missing a part of it, like somebody took a complete mech and then tore out some aspect of it. I get the on-paper stats that it has for some builds, but it's just a weird robbit.

[LordKnightFandragon]

Summoner cant mount enough guns that you can take seriously. It also doesnt have the mobility it should, nor the JJ power that you would think it has, considering how many JJ it has.

Reason people hate it is it sucks. Its key role, a fast, striker/flanker heavy is unattainable due ot PGI's hate for Clans and everyones QQ over JJ.

Its prime config, which is 1 CERPPC, LRM15 and a LBX, basically useless cuz it has 3 weapons that are pretty much worthless. CERPPC, the most punchy weapon in the CLan arsenal is a hot, mid range joke. LBX is just plain bad and LRMs are lulzy, much less a single one of them.

You cant put enough fire power on it to matter. Ive played with it in smurfy, ive tried to come up with builds I would even dream of taking into combat, cant think one up. I made a 4x ML one wiht I think an UAC10, but meh...I would if UAC didnt blow.

Maybe if PGI buffs Clan ballistics some more, or the CERPPC or something, maybe Summoner might be decent. Allow it to strip out those JJ and it might be something, then it would gain what? 10t? from the 5JJ. Or are the JJ 1t each? idk, I never use JJ.

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 13 June 2015 - 09:29 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Ultimatum X, on 13 June 2015 - 06:47 PM, said:

It has to be a Clan vs. IS argument, otherwise your argument becomes "My Summoner isn't one of the best mechs in the game like the TBR & HBR".

No, Clan vs. IS is only relevant in CW. For the context of this thread, I don't care about CW (and to this day i wish they'd just made CW mixtech, but that's another discussion.

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That's it, if that's what you want then say it.

Say you want the Summoner to be T1 and as good or better than the TBR & HBR.

Ah, but you're constructing a straw man of sorts here. Yes, I want it to be as good as a TBR or HBR, or, at least reasonably close. That is not the case currently. I'm using clan mechs in the comparisons here solely because its easier to compare similar mechs, what with them having the same mech construction rules and tech.

I also want comparable IS mechs to be there too. I don't think clan mechs should be better than IS mechs. 90% of my play is in solo queue matches. I have nearly a hundred IS mechs. Many clan mechs too.

Yes, I want all the mechs to be on the same level, but I'm not just angling to get "my clan mechs" to be tier one.

Alternatively, all the good clan mechs and is mechs could get nerfed too, which would achieve the same ends

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So please state clearly if that is what you are asking for, you want the Summoner to be a T1 mech, just be honest - don't song and dance around it.

I thought I was quite clear that I wanted the summoner to be as good as those mechs? I didn't "song and dance" around it, and honestly I feel I deserve a little better than that. While we've not always agreed, I think I can say honestly I've always been open about my motivations.

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I don't care if that's actually what you want, I would never disparage that.

I just want some transparency in the conversation.

Clearly, I wasn't detailed enough, and for that I apologize.

I have the same feelings about the summoner as I do for a number of IS mechs that are simply bad. Quirks have "helped" (not fixed, and arguably have caused new problems) that situation though.

I just don't like having mechs that are objectively poor compared to their contemporaries, not even because of geometry or hardpoint choice, but random massive nerfs that exist purely as a result of ill-thought game design issues. Specifically, the locked FF and ES on clan mechs.

That makes balancing the mechs extremely difficult, factions ignored. How do you balance a Timberwolf, which magically gets 2 tons extra pod space vs. a Summoner in addition to its natural weight difference, which simply lacks it? How then do you balance the Orion, which can choose which has endosteel, vs both of them?

You may recall, I supported and continue to support the Timberwolf and Stormcrow nerfs.

I've only spoken of the summoner here, because the thread was specifically about why people think the summoner is bad.

Edited by Wintersdark, 13 June 2015 - 09:40 PM.

[lshtaria]

I'm still seeing a lot of:

TT did this, TT did that.

So,

MWO must do this, MWO must do that.

I really wish some of you TT diehards would just **** off because it's really you guys who are ruining this game.

[LordBraxton]

I love the summoner, but I want ENDO on it sooo badly, so I can run stock builds with proper ammo amounts.

I just want a classic prime summoner that feels somewhat competetive

[1453 R]

The Summoner suffers from the following negative quirk:

Bad Reputation

As some here have pointed out, the builds it does do well - Gausslasers, SRM striker - it actually does quite well indeed. It doesn't fly when it jumps but it does get some vertical mobility Recent cUAC tightening means you can take big-bore autocannons on it and not hate yourself, though I agree that the visual design of the cUAC/(10/20) is dumb as hell. cUAC/5? Awesome gatling gun! cUAC/>5? Completely boneheaded-looking hillbilly boomstick. Wut?

Anyways. Experience with the 'Mech has shown me that the Summoner is, taken by itself, a perfectly viable machine. It's not really any less flexible than a typical Spheroid machine, which are often as not hardlocked into bad hardpoints themselves. It's got surprisingly durable hitboxes, I can roll damage around a Summoner quite well. That said, it's really not great for experimenters because there's maybe four builds you can do on it, three of which hinge on the 2E D-variant arms. The Prime is...not as good as it could be...for most of the reasons Bloodweaver pointed out, and also?

Yeah, it does have to compete with things like the Timber Wolf, the Hellbringer, and soon the Cauldron-Born. All gifted with ridiculous profusions of hardpoints, one of them granted ECM in exchange for its lack of structural upgrades, one of them equipped with the best hillhumping hardpoints in the entire game, and one of them being the overall strongest heavy 'Mech in MWO. Against that sort of competition, a perfectly solid but not supah-standout machine like the Summoner - which does, in fact, compete well with the majority of Spheroid heavy designs - just doesn't hold up.

Sad, really. People able to forget constant 800-damage games in their Timber Wolves for a little bit can actually have a lot of fun in their Summoners. I know I do, I really enjoy running the Summoner. Its Gausslasers build doesn't feel all that significantly weaker than the same type of build on a TBR.

I just wish it could do stuff other than Gausslasers once in a while.

[Wintersdark]

Kyocera, on 13 June 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

I'm still seeing a lot of:

TT did this, TT did that.

So,

MWO must do this, MWO must do that.

I really wish some of you TT diehards would just **** off because it's really you guys who are ruining this game.

I wish I could like this more than once.

I'm a Battletech fanboy; Mechwarrior as well.

The hard cold reality is that MWO is Mechwarrior first, Battletech second: that is, it's a video game based on the classic IP. Battletech was built as a tabletop game, wasn't exceptionally balanced even on it's own.

As is said: FOR BALANCE, CORE RULE IGNORE.

Tabletop lore? Absolutely. Tabletop mechanics? No. The mechanics must be adapted to this style of game - a sim/fps style game, not a dice ruled tabletop wargame.

[Wintersdark]

1453 R, on 13 June 2015 - 10:00 PM, said:

Sad, really. People able to forget constant 800-damage games in their Timber Wolves for a little bit can actually have a lot of fun in their Summoners. I know I do, I really enjoy running the Summoner. Its Gausslasers build doesn't feel all that significantly weaker than the same type of build on a TBR.

I just wish it could do stuff other than Gausslasers once in a while.

If I had summoners, I'd likely enjoy them. But then, I like a lot of bad mechs.

Even a small change, like allowing ES (or even just swapping FF for ES), that SMALL bit of tonnage? It'd be enough to open up a LOT more build options. A couple tons doesn't sound like a lot, and in many cases it's not. However, a couple tons allows a lot more options to work because as soon as you add ammo based weapons to a Summoner, it's anemic pod space starts heavily limiting how much ammunition you can bring to the party, and with MWO's doubled armor and profusion of +armor and +structure quirks, ammo is very important.

[Sorbic]

I really enjoy my prime even with it's low slung (pet peve) arms. My only complaint is it's a little light on ammo due to tonnage. .

[Mcgral18]

Kyocera, on 13 June 2015 - 09:47 PM, said:

I'm still seeing a lot of:

TT did this, TT did that.

So,

MWO must do this, MWO must do that.

I really wish some of you TT diehards would just **** off because it's really you guys who are ruining this game.

Doesn't help PGI didn't even start with TT stats.

AC40s for everyone! (AC10 and AC2 were both AC40s at 4 DPS) Or, TT AC20s because of doubled armour.
Yet, the AC10 doesn't feel very powerful, does it? That's what the 14 ton AC20 would perform in a certain interpretation of live action TT weapons, unquirked with a 2.5s cooldown. 40 damage in 10 seconds against doubled armour.


Yet, we've got super quirks, weird heat scale, magical convergence, with weapons that cause 2-20 times damage, against robots with 2x to whatever armour due to quirks, with 1x heat dissipation in most regards.



Very little of the game still sticks to TT, or even Battletech stats. Just in name.

A BattleTech Game™

Edited by Mcgral18, 13 June 2015 - 10:15 PM.

[LordBraxton]

It should be focused on the feel of the universe and ignore the table-top stats and mechanics

[Queek Head Taker]

I love it! it's a great mech! i have them mastered! people are just stupid on these forums!

I outdamage many so called... good mechs all the time with my summoners. Has jump jets! good hard points. LOVE IT!

Edited by Queek Head Taker, 13 June 2015 - 11:03 PM.

[Kh0rn]

Summoner is a hit and fade heavy mech using it mobility too attack then move off. come back and repeat. It states in lore other heavy mechs out armed it but it had maneuverability too make the difference. Play it as a skirmisher.

[SgtMagor]

I preferred my MW4 Summoner, jumped like a medium, is an Omni mech so you were able to change configs easily. and the only weapons I ever used on it was 2 gauss rifles, er large laser. cant seem to get that config in MWO, at least the last time I tried to work on it, jump jets are meh for heavy's and assaults. considering that the Summoner was my main go to mech and now I don't even bother with it...

[KuroNyra]

Why? Lack of customisation.
Very poor heat management (for a mech who was suppose to never overheat, it's completly BS here.)

and the weapons are not effective.
Let's not forget the hooverjets...

[Satan n stuff]

Jazzbandit1313, on 13 June 2015 - 04:43 PM, said:

Really guys, what's the big deal here? I've been buying one of every clan mech with cbills I didnt get in a pack to try it out, and so far, the summoner is one of my favorite. It feels great right off the bat, not even basic'd, and has decent hardpoints for dual UAC5's, gauss, or heavier AC's Great for peeking and shooting. It's nice and snappy. Add the JJ's in, and its one of the most fluid and fun to pilot for me.

Why don't you guys like it?

Because a lot of players don't know how to have fun.

[Joseph Mallan]

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I DON'T GET WHY PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE SUMMONER

I'm a Spheroid, its a Clan Omni. Do I need any other reason?

[OznerpaG]

the Summoner is an ok mech

but when the PUG heavy queue is always at 40%+ and you have to wait 5min for a match, then an 'ok mech' isn't worth the wait