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So Why Doesn't Case Work In Mwo?

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#21 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:15 AM

View PostGrisbane, on 15 June 2015 - 08:10 AM, said:



yes and no, some would reach that, but you forget at the end of those bones is a joint that takes up most of the free space.. besides there isn't space between myomer and the armor layers, or the ones even. kind of like how your skin is tight against to your muscle tissue and your muscles are weaved around the bone.. so once again, very little, if any of the blast would actually reach the ST internals at all. you forget the ammo detonation can only really happen if the armor is penetrated.. there would actually be less resistance on the horizontal plane than the vertical. think your estimation of how much free space is actually in those arms may be a bit high.

Do you know that? is Armor "Just" like skin? Cause I can give you points in stories where a Man is crawling around inside the armor stringing Myomar. Words like tight were used but a man was inside the armor.

View PostVellron2005, on 15 June 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

I play only Clan mechs... so far.. no editable or placeable case for me...

CASE closed.. :-(

Nice pun.

#22 Aiden Skye

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:35 AM

TTK is too low. None of that stuff matters when ur cored and dead in seconds

#23 Templar Dane

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:42 AM

I thought the explanation for case was that if/when the ammo started to cook off, the ammo was jettisoned.

#24 Satan n stuff

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 08:50 AM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 15 June 2015 - 08:01 AM, said:

Oh Man. That was... I can just imagine a crew in that... inferno. :(

I don't think they'd last very long, but that must hurt like hell, at least until most of your nerves have been burned off. I'd prefer something a bit more powerful, preferably with a minimum safe distance that's most easily measured in miles/kilometers.

Edited by Satan n stuff, 15 June 2015 - 08:51 AM.


#25 dezgra

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:20 AM

I always thought CASE was like a " Blow out panel". A system with blow out panels redirect the explosive energy out into a safe area, I have witnessed two explosions at work, one was in a system that was old and not equipt with blow out panels. It resulted in total destruction of operation center and collateral damage to adjacent building and machine centers. The other was upgraded with blow out panels and only the affected system was damaged. It was able to be repaired and put back in service. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that most modern battle tanks use similar tech, at least for crew safety.

#26 EgoSlayer

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:39 AM

View PostLightfoot, on 15 June 2015 - 05:05 AM, said:

All Clan Omnipods have CASE equipped. Head, Arm, Leg. And no, it does not prevent ammo explosions from taking out adjacent sections except the Center Torso, maybe. Big maybe though. It Balances out though with the fixed equipment slots instead of the floating/dynamic equipment slots of Inner Sphere mechs.... if CASE worked at all that is.

Clan CASE does work and prevents that damage from propagating. If you have some proof that it's not working - Like a video from a controlled test like in the training grounds, then submit it to MWO support as a bug. CASE doesn't protect the arm, the arm still gets blown off. What doesn't happen is any leftover damage spreading to the side torso.

There *was* a bug with CASE were it was not stopping Gauss rifle explosions from propagating that was introduced when they fixed the damage report to not say gauss ammo explosion as the cause of death. But that bug was fixed several patches ago.

But coming in here an saying it's not working without any proof, when several other people have tested it in the private matches and found it working (Where the Gauss issue and subsequent fix were identified), really just amounts to trolling.

Edited by EgoSlayer, 15 June 2015 - 09:41 AM.


#27 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 09:47 AM

View Postdezgra, on 15 June 2015 - 09:20 AM, said:

I always thought CASE was like a " Blow out panel". A system with blow out panels redirect the explosive energy out into a safe area, I have witnessed two explosions at work, one was in a system that was old and not equipt with blow out panels. It resulted in total destruction of operation center and collateral damage to adjacent building and machine centers. The other was upgraded with blow out panels and only the affected system was damaged. It was able to be repaired and put back in service. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that most modern battle tanks use similar tech, at least for crew safety.


That's essentially what CASE is. When an ammo explosion destroys a location with CASE installed, if there's any excess damage, instead of continuing to transfer inwards, the damage blows off the rear armor (if the location has a separate set of rear armor- otherwise it blows all the armor off) and then dissipates into the air.

Real world things aside, the idea of CASE is that the ammunition explosion doesn't go any further than the CASE-equipped component. There are a couple things that twist this value, but the original point of CASE in CBT is to 1) prevent having to replace the entirety of the 'mech when a 100-point plus ammo explosion goes off and 2) allow a 'mech with a standard engine to continue to operate after an ammo explosion, albeit minus at least an arm.

Clans getting free CASE in all locations is just another part of the 'look at how powerful these guys are' things that happened when the Clans were introduced to the BTech universe- originally, CASE is balanced value to cost. It's not a tax on standard engines or a tax on ammo weapons, it's a 'just in case' tool meant to save 'mechs, kind of like an AMS.

The effect of ammo explosions has been somewhat attenuated in CBT at some point post-2000, though: Originally, if one ammo bin in a location is critically hit, all ammo in that location explodes for full damage. Current rules, though, are that only the bin that was hit explodes.

Now, this damage transfer was not originally internal-only in CBT. It follows standard damage transfer rules, meaning that excess damage is applied to the armor of the next location in (from a limb- arm or leg- to that side torso, and from a side torso or head to the center torso). While this can attenuate the damage somewhat, 100 or so damage - the typical amount of damage dealt by a single untapped ammo bin- is enough to destroy pretty much any 'mech, no matter that it has to eat through the armor first. These days, the damage being internal only guarantees that even a half-empty ammo bin is fatal.

MWO messes with this a lot. To begin with, ammo bins have hit points and so take multiple critical hits from anything but a PPC, AC/10, AC/20, or Gauss to break. Second of all, ammo bins have a low (<25%? Not certain) chance of exploding when broken, instead of always exploding when broken. Thirdly, when damage in MWO is transferred to the next location, it's cut in half. This considerably reduces the risk inherent in carrying ammo despite ammo bins being about 50% larger in terms of shots and thus dealing staggering 150+ damage hits to the 'mech. (Edit- except for SRMs, which for some reason keep the same 100 missiles per tonne count. I don't understand why this is, but it is.) Doubled structure pushes this back even further. At the same time, though, damage dealing is better, faster, and more focused, meaning you'll pretty much never have an ammo explosion whose damage transfers to an undamaged location.

The result of this is that while ammo explosions in MWO are roughly equally deadly as in CBT, they're vastly less likely to happen, which makes CASE a noticeably less valuable piece of equipment. That said, it's absolutely not worthless either.

Point being, stop looking at CASE in terms of real world mechanics: we're driving GIANT STOMPITY ROBUTTS that somehow don't have weapon ranges that noticeably exceed those of modern-day tanks. If you have the tech to make lasers and fusion engines and jump drives, you have the tech to make cannons better than the autocannons we're using, no question.

Screw the money, I have rules.

The point is that CASE is balanced in terms of what it costs and what it is- it's a half tonne and one critical hit slot for a little extra security, which won't always matter but when it does it can go a long way.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 15 June 2015 - 11:43 AM.


#28 AlphaToaster

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:38 AM

C.A.S.E doesn't prevent all ammo explosion damage from transferring to the CT, you can still die from an ammo explosion. What it does is reduce the damage to only 1 ton worth.

Example 1: Mech has 4 tons of ammo in Left Torso, STD engine with no Case. Left torso gets crit and cooks off some ammo. Explosion happens taking the LT, remaining damage carries to CT. Dead mech.

Example 2: Mech has 4 tons of ammo in Left Torso, STD Engine with Case. Left torso gets crit and cooks off some ammo. Explosion happens taking LT, remaining damage carried to the CT is capped at only 1 ton worth of damage. CT takes damage but perhaps survives the crit.

*Protip: Destroying a leg on a mech with ammo in it can cause that mech to die from an ammo explosion if they don't have Case in the proper Side Torso, or if their CT was already really weak and can't survive the 1 ton worth of ammo explosion damage. It's rare but it happens.

#29 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:40 AM

View PostAlphaToaster, on 15 June 2015 - 11:38 AM, said:

C.A.S.E doesn't prevent all ammo explosion damage from transferring to the CT, you can still die from an ammo explosion. What it does is reduce the damage to only 1 ton worth.

Example 1: Mech has 4 tons of ammo in Left Torso, STD engine with no Case. Left torso gets crit and cooks off some ammo. Explosion happens taking the LT, remaining damage carries to CT. Dead mech.

Example 2: Mech has 4 tons of ammo in Left Torso, STD Engine with Case. Left torso gets crit and cooks off some ammo. Explosion happens taking LT, remaining damage carried to the CT is capped at only 1 ton worth of damage. CT takes damage but perhaps survives the crit.



...you're wrong. This is not how CASE was ever designed to work. If this is the experience you're having with CASE, then you need to start making bug reports to PGI, because this is absolutely 100% not what CASE is meant to do, and it demonstrably isn't what it does when the majority of players use it.






....despite this, your leg ammo protip is correct.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 15 June 2015 - 11:41 AM.


#30 Xmith

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 11:52 AM

I once put C.A.S.E. in the right side torso in an Atlas. I wanted to find a way to protect the AC20. That idea was shot down by the forum. I could swear it was working. But the forum warrior experts said, no way, C.A.S.E. does not work that way.

Edited by Xmith, 15 June 2015 - 11:53 AM.


#31 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:19 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 15 June 2015 - 07:52 AM, said:

Which we don't have here! Kinda almost makes CASE pointless.


But the blast would travel up the path of least resistance... You know the free space between the myomar, bones & armor. Channeling it to the next section.

Except one thing noted is each section is "sealed" on mechs, which is why a space or underwater breach only destroys that section.

Also, technically? The path of least resistance? Would be the hole blasted through your mech for the shot to touch off the ammo.

View PostLyoto Machida, on 15 June 2015 - 07:58 AM, said:

I don't see why PGI can't just introduce CASE II already and just call it CASE.

I mean, look what they've done with Guardian ECM? This couldn't be worse than that...



It IS essentially pointless here (on IS mechs)...kinda like AMS (unless you pack two or three).

AMS was not terribly good in TT, either.

View PostGrisbane, on 15 June 2015 - 08:31 AM, said:


think you are missing the point..

what has less resistance, a path cluttered by obstacles or a path that is wide open? the path cluttered is the line up the arm, the path wide open is the one where weapons fire has destroyed the armor on the arm (because to detonate that ammo you have to have reduced the armor to 0, especially in MWO). where do you think that explosion is going to go? trust me when i say after AO training in the US Navy (mostly on CV-67).. i may have a little bit of knowledge on how these things work (irl). besides, i'm kind of a pyro, i have had enough close calls nearly blowing my (insert appendage here) off to have figured out roughly how the explosion is gonna look. (and i can point you to 30 people that will verify this much to their chagrin. and before you ask where i get the explosives, just remember black powder is readily available at your local walmart)

Exactly. A large breach near the ammo magazine is the most obvious outlet. Plus, as I noted, Mech sections ae "sealed" from each other. You can confirm this in the Vacuum and Underwater special case rules.

#32 Tiamat of the Sea

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:21 PM

View PostXmith, on 15 June 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

I once put C.A.S.E. in the right side torso in an Atlas. I wanted to find a way to protect the AC20. That idea was shot down by the forum. I could swear it was working. But the forum warrior experts said, no way, C.A.S.E. does not work that way.


http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__4503691

#33 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:30 PM

View PostXmith, on 15 June 2015 - 11:52 AM, said:

I once put C.A.S.E. in the right side torso in an Atlas. I wanted to find a way to protect the AC20. That idea was shot down by the forum. I could swear it was working. But the forum warrior experts said, no way, C.A.S.E. does not work that way.

That's because it doesn't work that way. All CASE does is contain ammo explosions to that location. Period. Game over.

View PostQuickdraw Crobat, on 15 June 2015 - 11:40 AM, said:



...you're wrong. This is not how CASE was ever designed to work. If this is the experience you're having with CASE, then you need to start making bug reports to PGI, because this is absolutely 100% not what CASE is meant to do, and it demonstrably isn't what it does when the majority of players use it.






....despite this, your leg ammo protip is correct.

I have no clue where he even got that idea from....... :wacko:

#34 Water Bear

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:32 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 15 June 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:

That's because it doesn't work that way. All CASE does is contain ammo explosions to that location. Period. Game over.


That's about the nicest possible response to that post.

#35 Bilbo

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:34 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 15 June 2015 - 12:30 PM, said:


...
I have no clue where he even got that idea from....... :wacko:

Someone from support, a year or so back, gave a player this misinformation and it unfortunately made it's way to the forum.

#36 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:43 PM

View PostBilbo, on 15 June 2015 - 12:34 PM, said:

Someone from support, a year or so back, gave a player this misinformation and it unfortunately made it's way to the forum.

I hope that Support person got ninja-slapped with a week old fish for that.

#37 Bilbo

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:45 PM

If I recall correctly, they were part of the IGP team, so I don't know if they are even around anymore.

#38 Lightfoot

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 12:59 PM

View PostVellron2005, on 15 June 2015 - 05:29 AM, said:

I play only Clan mechs... so far.. no editable or placeable case for me...

CASE closed.. :-(



Next time you are in Mechlab, look at the top of each Clan mech section. Says, CASE equipped. But it doesn't work. Once an Arm with ammo is destroyed it takes out the adjacent Side Torso even when the ST is only lightly damaged. Don't you ever watch the mech damage graph?

#39 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 01:03 PM

View PostLightfoot, on 15 June 2015 - 12:59 PM, said:



Next time you are in Mechlab, look at the top of each Clan mech section. Says, CASE equipped. But it doesn't work. Once an Arm with ammo is destroyed it takes out the adjacent Side Torso even when the ST is only lightly damaged. Don't you ever watch the mech damage graph?

most of us aren't having your issue. Send in proof to support. I have ammo in the arms of several mechs and have never had this issue.

View PostBilbo, on 15 June 2015 - 12:45 PM, said:

If I recall correctly, they were part of the IGP team, so I don't know if they are even around anymore.

well, according to the tinhat crowd..... ;)

#40 Lightfoot

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Posted 15 June 2015 - 01:09 PM

Well it's night and day for me. The problem never happens on Clan mechs with the ammo stored in the leg. If they lose an arm, the side torso remains intact. If there was ammo in the Arm, it takes out the Side Torso with it. No, I am not going to bother with proving it to support. It's part of the design, not a bug. I am just asking why does CASE not work?

Edited by Lightfoot, 15 June 2015 - 01:10 PM.






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