143 replies to this topic

[Lugh]

Fenrisulvyn, on 16 June 2015 - 03:13 PM, said:

"it makes no sense, when the match score is 1-8 or greater in favor of the enemy, to engage in combat thinking you will stand any chance at all to make a useful difference"

There are two responses to this, both of which I think are valid:

1) pulling an out of bounds suicide is silly because it robs you of a chance to gain experience. When I am last man standing, I try to pull a drive-by or drive-thru to see what I can get away with. Because the learning experience may come in handy when I am only down 1-3.

2) conversely, on large maps like Tourmaline or Terra Therma, running out of bounds is legit because it saves the other team time trying to cover distance to get to you.

I llike this attitude I've been in games where we were down 4-8 and the 8 that died did their jobs well and did significant damage to all the mechs on the enemy team. I've seen that remaining lance kill the 8 remaining mechs with drive throughs.

I did 5 myself one after the other (ac20 to the red for the win)and seen the team win 12 -10.

[Rushin Roulette]

Average Pilot, on 16 June 2015 - 02:46 PM, said:

In MW:O, I have personally had several MM hiccups that have resulted in a 4 on 8 or 5 on 8 battle to start, with myself on the shorter side. The conversation in team chat is whether to fight or run? I have done all options - kept to the field of battle and died in a loss, kept to the field of battle and eked out a victory, fled the field of battle rather than stick out the situation.

Just out of curiosity... are you also asking the same question if you are on the side with a distinct advantage? Meaning that the enemy team is down 3 or 4 mechs. Just making sure that this question is not for the sole attempt to pad your own stats and also is intended as a question in the form of "can I run out of bounds to make the teams even again so that all others in the match can have more fun?"

[Mystere]

Flash Frame, on 17 June 2015 - 08:26 AM, said:

If you suicide, you are DENYING c-bills earned to the enemy team.

You talk as if that is a bad thing.

Appogee, on 17 June 2015 - 08:28 AM, said:

Mystere, on 16 June 2015 - 08:37 PM, said:

People always miss, or conveniently ignore, one very important caveat: it only applies during instances of non-participation. In other words, you are in violation only if you did not participate in the fight.

[Joseph Mallan]

InspectorG, on 17 June 2015 - 05:27 AM, said:

You lose nothing by dying...other than KDR which in the context of the game is not the best performance metric.

There is no R&R - you get a fresh mech each drop.

No Discretion or Valor needed. NOTHING IS LOST. Pilot lives. Mech is 100% next match. NOTHING TO LOSE by going out fighting. In fact, you may actually be able to win. You would never know if you tuck tail and run.

Again, if one opts to 'tactically retreat' knowing they lose nothing and will have a replenished mech next drop regardless of win or lose...how is that not a 'fragile ego'?

This isnt BT with BV and R&R. Pilots dont die here.

So then you don't need to kill him... right? You still win. You make a little less money and a bit smaller E peen.

Its simple, He has decided to accept the inevitable and admit defeat. The shows not having a Ego problem at all. Game is over, We lost. GGClose!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 June 2015 - 10:44 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2015 - 03:56 AM, said:

Suicide is the most cowardly way to quit a match and falls under the non-participating clause of the CoC.

Simply put, you're playing a game with other people. Do them the courtesy of being a good sport if you lose. Don't leave the "table" before the game's over to prevent them from fully winning; that's not how games work in RL and it's not how this one should.

I vaguely recall that if you tip over your King in chess you admit defeat and it is considered acting maturely. personally when I know I am going to die... I just power down(while being destroyed).

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 17 June 2015 - 10:47 AM.

[Mystere]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

So then you don't need to kill him... right? You still win. You make a little less moneyand a bit smaller E peen.

Its simple, He has decided to accept the inevitable and admit defeat. The shows not having a Ego problem at all. Game is over, We lost. GGClose!

I think the highlighted fragment is the crux of the issue.

[TWIAFU]

The "fight" is 15min long and you agree to participate for that time.

The "fight" is not over til one side wins.

You are not participating in the fight if you are alive, there is time left, and you run out of bounds at any point in the 15min fight.

Or are you really trying to tell people here that you have participated in the fight if you shot one MG bullet did damage and then it is OK to run out of bounds? You participated, right?

How hard is it to understand one simple sentence?

Willfully going out of bounds. If you choose to knowingly go out of bounds instead of participate with no exceptions, you are subject to being reported.

Simple English.

[Bilbo]

Report away. If the fellow participated in the battle, nothing is likely to come of it.

[Water Bear]

TWIAFU, on 17 June 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

The "fight" is 15min long and you agree to participate for that time.

The "fight" is not over til one side wins.

You are not participating in the fight if you are alive, there is time left, and you run out of bounds at any point in the 15min fight.

Or are you really trying to tell people here that you have participated in the fight if you shot one MG bullet did damage and then it is OK to run out of bounds? You participated, right?

How hard is it to understand one simple sentence?

Willfully going out of bounds. If you choose to knowingly go out of bounds instead of participate with no exceptions, you are subject to being reported.

Simple English.

What you're describing was already addressed by the contents of the following post (scroll up a few or click the link):

Mystere, on 17 June 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

[...]

Rushin Roulette, on 17 June 2015 - 08:50 AM, said:

Just out of curiosity... are you also asking the same question if you are on the side with a distinct advantage? Meaning that the enemy team is down 3 or 4 mechs. Just making sure that this question is not for the sole attempt to pad your own stats and also is intended as a question in the form of "can I run out of bounds to make the teams even again so that all others in the match can have more fun?"

I can't speak for the guy you were addressing, but the goal in a competitive sport is for one team to win. That necessarily includes the notion that the losing team may feel bad. Where most games draw the line is in making the losing team feel excessively or unnecessarily bad.

[Nathan Foxbane]

TWIAFU, on 17 June 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

Or are you really trying to tell people here that you have participated in the fight if you shot one MG bullet did damage and then it is OK to run out of bounds? You participated, right?

This is a specific scenario for exploitation of the non-participation rule and should not be used as an argument. If you deem the action a violation, report it and let PGI sit judgment on the conduct of the player in question.

In general, if a player has actively participated in combat it is not my place to judge their choice in terms of defeat.

[Mawai]

InspectorG, on 16 June 2015 - 03:01 PM, said:

Whats a legit reason for going out of bounds in MWO????

1) Meleeing near the boundary. Accidentally run out of bounds. Overheat and shutdown. Die due to out of bounds.
2) Run into out of bounds to flank opposing player ... run too far in and can't get back out in time. Die.
3) Chase opponent too far into out of bounds ... both die.

There are quite a few "legitimate" situations where you end up out of bounds and if you don't time things properly it is quite easy to die before returning in bounds.

The only other reason folks run into out of bounds is usually to deny the other team the kill though what that really means I have no idea since kills are pretty meaningless in general. The whole idea of running into out of bounds for role playing reasons is a red herring since the game is essentially a first person shooter with no real role play elements. Since it is more profitable to stay and fight ... there is no real reason to run out of bounds to die.

[GRiPSViGiL]

There is no shame in retreating out of bounds when the fight is out of hand. Even well known players and top competitive players have done this. I do it to choose my own demise in protest of the horrible MM.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

RP is cool and all, and that's what running out of bounds is. However, you need to RP as if "out of bounds" is actually minefield because that's really what it is... you die. You run out there and you die. There was no retreat, you didn't save your mech to fight another day, you explode and die.

There is nothing to be gained, only lost by running into the minefield.

Then again that's just how I see it (since you actually explode in game), but play like you want to. I can't deny a man his jollies and how he gets them.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"can I run out of bounds to make the teams even again so that all others in the match can have more fun?"

Good point. I did something like that recently on Alpine when the enemy had a teamkiller. They were down 2 before we started (the victim and the TKer). So I announced I would do a suicide run to "even things up" a bit. Drove into their middle and did evasive maneuvers, didn't fire a shot, let them kill me.

Is that violating the TOS? Hardly. Its simply good sportsmanship. And I think many players view suicide by out of bounds the same way. It can be a simple courtesy to move things along so everyone else can drop again sooner.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

Mystere, on 17 June 2015 - 10:16 AM, said:

You talk as if that is a bad thing.

Given the Economy of MWO... Yeah, it's a bad thing.

[InspectorG]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2015 - 10:43 AM, said:

So then you don't need to kill him... right? You still win. You make a little less money and a bit smaller E peen.

Its simple, He has decided to accept the inevitable and admit defeat. The shows not having a Ego problem at all. Game is over, We lost. GGClose!

Or the 3 i killed went to cap and nulled our caps???

I could have 'given up' and let fate/chance determine who was gonna win.

Or i could have fought against the odds to see if i could pull out a miracle win.

Hmm...MWO is a battle simulation game...with nothing to lose...

Giving up is best tactic, much OP. PGI plZ Nerf.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Personally, I don't consider heading out of bounds as a method of self-destruct to be any better or different than going AFK from that point of the match on, disconnecting and leaving your 'mech behind, or otherwise 'taking your ball and going home'.

Yes it's about sportsmanship, yes it's applicable even to things that aren't sports.

If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable- anything from Battleship to Warhammer to Magic: The Gathering to Risk to Space Hulk to Robo Rally and so on.

Anyone claiming that MWO shouldn't have sportsmanship applied to it because it's not a sport has no ground for comparing it to war either as long as it isn't an actual war.

A tactical retreat is performed during the course of a match of MWO just through breaking off, repositioning, and reengaging. The entire point of a tactical retreat is to conserve force for re-use elsewhere, and with no resource carry-over from one match to the next, the mindset that there is such a thing as a tactical retreat on a scale exceeding the bounds of a single match makes no sense.

Applying this concept in this manner is misapplying it, and you might want to reconsider how you're thinking about this game.


By hitting the 'launch' button, you're making a small social contract- you're agreeing to play a game with twenty-three other people. As with any other situation where you're agreeing to play a game, in person or otherwise, you have no legal obligation to participate in good spirit, but you do have a moral one. It's not a big moral obligation, nothing comparable to not killing your neighbors' dog next time they go to the store (just to pull an example out of my complete lack of a hat), but it is a moral obligation nonetheless.

As in any other such game situation, you've thus agreed to try to win and to stick it out for the whole game, or at least until you personally are eliminated. Leaving before this time (for reasons other than something more important coming up) hinders the fun of the others playing the game. If you don't want to consider the fun of others, then the obligation is yours to find a game where you aren't playing with anybody else and thus don't have this concern. Choosing to ignore this in this situation (when playing a game with strangers over the internet) indicates one of two things:

• People you don't know personally don't matter to you. If you knew these people, you'd care, but you don't, so they can go [insert colorful phrase here]. I would like to suggest you try to figure out what the actual reason is you're playing a game with non-local multiplayer, since it's clearly not about playing with other people.
  
• You only care about how you look- since these berks on the internet don't know you, you don't have to worry about appearing to be a good person. I would like to suggest you reexamine your morality and existing friendships, since you're lying to the people who know you.

Games are intended for having entertainment. Games with multiple players are intended for all the players to be entertained. This is the nature of game, and the point you agree to uphold by playing a game. If you are going to break with this agreement for any reason, then you are responsible for damaging others' entertainment.

No, it's not as bad as most other forms of damage.

No, that doesn't excuse it either.

[InspectorG]

GRiPSViGiL, on 17 June 2015 - 11:22 AM, said:

There is no shame in retreating out of bounds when the fight is out of hand. Even well known players and top competitive players have done this. I do it to choose my own demise in protest of the horrible MM.

And what defines "out of hand" and protesting the "horrible MM"

This is a very easy slippery-slope that would lead to Puggers 'retreating' due to the reasons you stated justified by:

Enemy is a bunch of LRM scrubs this isnt MW, im leaving.

We have too little ECM to protect from LRM, MM sux, im leaving.

We have 2 disconnects, we are gonna lose, im leaving.

We dont have any Assaults, im leaving.

They are all Clan OP mechs, im leaving thats not fair.

They are all Meta IS mechs, thats not fair im leaving.

3 Locusts on our team? We suck, im out.

Seriously, think of all the newb and not so newb QQ and give them justification for choosing when to participate and when to 'gracefully exit'.

Cherry pickin will reach a whole new level if it became socially acceptable to 'retreat' in a non-campaign setting.

C'Mon, its a FIGHTING GAME...hence: FIGHTING.

Its not Diplomacy.
Its not Axis&Allies.
Its not Civilization.

Its robots blowing up other robots. Thats the definition of the game, thats the fun.

Nathan Foxbane, on 17 June 2015 - 11:05 AM, said:

In general, if a player has actively participated in combat it is not my place to judge their choice in terms of defeat.

But it could be construed as farming. Doing the minimum to participate/score, then jump to another 'moar fair' match.

[MechWarrior3671771]

"If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable"

But that's not what is happening here. And sorry, but the rest of your points have a sense of entitlement to them that is disturbing. If the last man standing wants to suicide to save himself and everyone else time, that's his call. You are not entitled to salvage his parts. If he instead wants to draw the game out and try to turn a 1 vs 12, that's his call too. And its no one else's place to dictate how he plays the game.

You can resign in chess. You can fold in poker. What you are essentially advocating is demanding the player match your raise when he has nothing in his hand.

There are good reasons to suicide out of bounds. There are also bad reasons too. But unless you are telepathic and can sleuth the pilot's reasons, its not your call.

[Nathan Foxbane]

InspectorG, on 17 June 2015 - 01:01 PM, said:

But it could be construed as farming. Doing the minimum to participate/score, then jump to another 'moar fair' match.

Not the context of actively I was thinking of. I was thinking along the lines of a player who has been fighting their best or at least fighting rather than some mere token shots, sees they have a true no win situation and makes a decision to end the match on their own terms. Something more along the lines of last one or two 'Mechs standing against assured defeat.

I would report someone I see repeatedly doing the bare minimum and bailing.
Of course we should discussing the OP's question, namely the game is lost, their team is on the verge of total collapse, is it OK to roleplay a retreat by going OoB? Personally, I find this acceptable from the last player alive, or players which can provide no further tactical value. I suspect PGI would look at anything else on a case by case basis.
I would recommend, if the OP really wants to travel that particular roleplay path, to only go OoB if they are among the last three players standing (at most) against overwhelming numbers who are in good condition and/or the OP can no longer meaningfully contribute to the battle. The latter being all weapons gone/out of ammo and/or acting as a shield or distraction will have no impact on the game's outcome type of situations.