143 replies to this topic

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Fenrisulvyn, on 17 June 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

"If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable"

But that's not what is happening here. And sorry, but the rest of your points have a sense of entitlement to them that is disturbing. If the last man standing wants to suicide to save himself and everyone else time, that's his call. You are not entitled to salvage his parts. If he instead wants to draw the game out and try to turn a 1 vs 12, that's his call too. And its no one else's place to dictate how he plays the game.

You can resign in chess. You can fold in poker. What you are essentially advocating is demanding the player match your raise when he has nothing in his hand.

There are good reasons to suicide out of bounds. There are also bad reasons too. But unless you are telepathic and can sleuth the pilot's reasons, its not your call.

It's exactly what's happening here. You're in a losing position so you're refusing to continue to play the game.

As to entitlement- at no point did I mention salvage, because that has nothing to do with it. What other entitlement do you see here?

You can resign in chess and fold in poker, yes. If your goal is to save time, though, by ending the game, then what you do is you quit the match (possibly while calling out your location to the enemy). This results in less time spent, in most situations, than running off the side of the map. This is a manner of forefeit that makes sense for speed. I could see running offmap if the pilot in question was next to the edge already, certainly, but most of the rest of the time it's a slower method of forfeit.

Hence what I said about it being no different than disconnecting, shutting down, or going AFK without some other, more important thing to do. In some situations it doesn't make a difference which you do. In the situations where it does make a difference, though, choosing a method other than the easiest/fastest method constitutes creating additional cost for yourself (in time) to deny a benefit to the opposing players, when going the fastest way results in the least cost for yourself.

The only reasons to apply additional cost to yourself are if it creates a perceived or actual benefit for you. By the way the game is currently constructed, it can't create an actual benefit.

[TWIAFU]

Fenrisulvyn, on 17 June 2015 - 01:43 PM, said:

There are good reasons to suicide out of bounds.

Please list the reasons PGI has given for it to be acceptable.

[anonymous161]

I dont get the issue if you can still fight then fight get as many points as possible.

My problem is with the players that choose not to fight but just run away the whole time using their ecm and speed to stay away while never actually trading shots.

Not really sure what could be done other than a team to properly coordinate and be able to cut off retreats.

suicide should give you the same penalty as a team kill 10k cbills at least.

Edited by Darth Bane001, 17 June 2015 - 02:09 PM.

[bad arcade kitty]

>If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable

bzz, when you play chess you can surrender and it is, yes, acceptable

[Nightmare1]

Mystere, on 17 June 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

That's because you see/play MWO as a "sport". I and many others don't.

I can't consider any video game a sport; that would be an insult to every other real sport in existence. I do believe in good, sportsmanlike conduct though no matter the situation.

Water Bear, on 17 June 2015 - 07:49 AM, said:

I told myself I Wouldn't post but...

Actually games do work that way in real life. See baseball, and the mercy rule. See professional fighting sports. You do not get to wail on an unconscious opponent, or one who has intentionally left the ring.

Also I have never played a card or computer game where I couldn't surrender. I wait with baited breath for the day when I say, "ok you win" at a game of Magic and my opponent says "sit your ass down, you still have 3 life left." The answer he gets will be no.

Double edit: That's not completely true, Unreal Tournament doesn't have a surrender, but that's why god gave me the ability to disconnect.

This isn't a sport so comparing MWO to sports is meaningless.

Compared to other games, I would say that there are many games where you play it through. Battleship, Monopoly, Settlers of Cataan, Rummy, Spoons, Sorry, Checkers, Chess, etc. are all games that you play through to the finish. There's no quitting half-way through, no running away from the table because you can't handle losing.

Yes, there are some games, such as Axis and Allies, that do tend to end by surrender, but that is normally due to the game length. After playing a few hours, it's hard not to if your enemy has you at a disadvantage.

However, for a ten minute match (if it's a long one, that is), running out of bounds to suicide is flat out stupid, a sign of ineptness, and demonstrates a pitiable lack of character. It would be far better to die from overheating in battle or to meekly power down and surrender than to commit suicide because you can't handle losing.

In the end, the thought is always the same, "I cheated them by killing myself!"

Well, not only is that incredibly juvenile (Until I started playing MWO, I thought that behavior was chiefly the domain of little children), but it's also very foolish, self-satisfying, and rather egotistical.

...And it's a breach of the CoC, so you run the risk of running afoul of PGI if you do it.

Run out of bounds if you want, just know that the only person you're really cheating is yourself. You're cheating yourself out of the respect of the other players on the field, the opportunity to improve your score and the scores of your teammates, and you're reinforcing a poor habit that will carry over into real life (being a quitter).

Joseph Mallan, on 17 June 2015 - 10:47 AM, said:

I vaguely recall that if you tip over your King in chess you admit defeat and it is considered acting maturely. personally when I know I am going to die... I just power down(while being destroyed).

Yes, and both those actions are acceptable. What is not acceptable is swiping your hand across the board to scatter the pieces and then running away gleefully (running out of bounds).

[Tiamat of the Sea]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

>If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable

bzz, when you play chess you can surrender and it is, yes, acceptable

For the sake of the sportsmanship part of the argument, chess is a sport.

[Nightmare1]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

>If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable

bzz, when you play chess you can surrender and it is, yes, acceptable

That's akin to powering down and allowing your enemies to take you.

A better example of running out of bounds, would be knocking over all the chess pieces while running away and shouting, "I didn't lose! I didn't lose!"

Which is more mature?

[Tiamat of the Sea]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2015 - 02:31 PM, said:

Yes, and both those actions are acceptable. What is not acceptable is swiping your hand across the board to scatter the pieces and then running away gleefully (running out of bounds).

I wouldn't go quite this far- but I would say that running out of bounds when it takes longer than some other method (charge the enemy, overheat to death, shut down and type location in All chat, disconnect) is equivalent to dumping the board on the floor and then turning and stomping away.

[Mystere]

TWIAFU, on 17 June 2015 - 10:53 AM, said:

The "fight" is 15min long and you agree to participate for that time.

The "fight" is not over til one side wins.

You are not participating in the fight if you are alive, there is time left, and you run out of bounds at any point in the 15min fight.

Or are you really trying to tell people here that you have participated in the fight if you shot one MG bullet did damage and then it is OK to run out of bounds? You participated, right?

How hard is it to understand one simple sentence?

Willfully going out of bounds. If you choose to knowingly go out of bounds instead of participate with no exceptions, you are subject to being reported.

Simple English.

If one is already disarmed and incapable of continuing the fight, why should they not retreat/suicide and deny the enemy their precious c-bills, XP. GXP, kill, assist, or whatever they so covet?

You can always report such people if you feel inclined. I can assure you though that nothing will come out of it.


Finally, your futile attempt to insult other people's English skills just betrays your own lack of English comprehension skills.

[bad arcade kitty]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2015 - 02:33 PM, said:

That's akin to powering down and allowing your enemies to take you.

A better example of running out of bounds, would be knocking over all the chess pieces while running away and shouting, "I didn't lose! I didn't lose!"

Which is more mature?

no it is not

when you surrender in chess you deny enemy the satisfaction to actually destroy you, same for suicide in mwo

p.s. moba games have surrender and i saw how people demanded enemies 'don't surrender we want to stomp you more, we want more kills', so, yeah, surrender surely does deny enemy the satisfaction

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 17 June 2015 - 02:40 PM.

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 17 June 2015 - 11:13 AM, said:

The whole idea of running into out of bounds for role playing reasons is a red herring since the game is essentially a first person shooter with no real role play elements. Since it is more profitable to stay and fight ... there is no real reason to run out of bounds to die.

Just because MWO has no actual facility for role-playing does not mean someone cannot chose to role-play anyway.

It's the same as MWO not having any built-in facility for role warfare. In spite of such a deficiency, there are still ways in which a player can implement their own role warfare (e.g. role within a 12-man team).

[Nightmare1]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 17 June 2015 - 02:34 PM, said:

I wouldn't go quite this far- but I would say that running out of bounds when it takes longer than some other method (charge the enemy, overheat to death, shut down and type location in All chat, disconnect) is equivalent to dumping the board on the floor and then turning and stomping away.

Which is incredibly immature and an insult to the person with whom you are playing.

[bad arcade kitty]

it's incredibly immature to want to stomp people who managed to get into a helpless position

[Nightmare1]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:35 PM, said:

no it is not

when you surrender in chess you deny enemy the satisfaction to actually destroy you, same for suicide in mwo

p.s. moba games have surrender and i saw how people demanded enemies 'don't surrender we want to stomp you more, we want more kills', so, yeah, surrender surely does deny enemy the satisfaction

You're not surrendering by running out of bounds. Committing suicide by fighting (overheating in battle) or by powering down before your foes and allowing them to kill you are both viable ways of ending the battle because, in the former case, you participate up until your moment of death while in the latter case you concede that you are beaten. Running out of bounds will likely not change the outcome of the match, so it is no skin of the winning team's teeth. However, it hurts your team. There have been many matches where I could have committed suicide but didn't, and wound up scoring another kill and more damage, boosting teammate scores high enough through assists that they were able to achieve qualifying matches for events. The biggest victims of you committing suicide aren't the players on Red Team; it's you and your own teammates.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

it's incredibly immature to want to stomp people who managed to get into a helpless position

He said, as though nobody opposing his arguments held themselves to the same standards they were espousing.

[Mystere]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 17 June 2015 - 12:57 PM, said:

If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable ...

A better analogy is dropping your king in Chess as a sign of accepting defeat.

[bad arcade kitty]

Nightmare1, on 17 June 2015 - 02:45 PM, said:

You're not surrendering by running out of bounds. Committing suicide by fighting (overheating in battle) or by powering down before your foes and allowing them to kill you are both viable ways of ending the battle because, in the former case, you participate up until your moment of death while in the latter case you concede that you are beaten. Running out of bounds will likely not change the outcome of the match, so it is no skin of the winning team's teeth. However, it hurts your team. There have been many matches where I could have committed suicide but didn't, and wound up scoring another kill and more damage, boosting teammate scores high enough through assists that they were able to achieve qualifying matches for events. The biggest victims of you committing suicide aren't the players on Red Team; it's you and your own teammates.

your logic is flawed

you suggest feeding enemy c-bills, kill ratio and satisfaction 'by powering down before your foes' because 'you concede that you are beaten' (what kind of reason it is, why running out-of-bounds isn't conceding, conceding doesn't mean 'feeding enemy kills'), so you consider it acceptable

at the same time you say that 'Running out of bounds will likely not change the outcome of the match ... However, it hurts your team.' why don't you use this reason to your suggested powering down? it will likely not change the outcome of the match too and it hurts your team too.

the whole post is ridiculous, in two cases which both supposedly may hurt your team, you suggest that one which feeds enemy kills and conceal that it may hurt your team, meanwhile you blame that one which doesn't feed kills and colorfully describe how it may hurt your team

double standards much?

Edited by bad arcade kitty, 17 June 2015 - 03:00 PM.

[InspectorG]

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:25 PM, said:

>If sportsmanship isn't applicable to games, then 'flipping the board' in any tabletop game when you're in a losing position is acceptable

bzz, when you play chess you can surrender and it is, yes, acceptable

bad arcade kitty, on 17 June 2015 - 02:44 PM, said:

it's incredibly immature to want to stomp people who managed to get into a helpless position

In a game where the stomping and penalty of the stomp are purely cosmetic and symbolic(no one actually gets hurt)?

Its a zero-sum game. Its a battle/fighting game. Ties are rare. There will be a winner who will often snowball and roll the losing side in a solo drop.
Thats the math.


So its only acceptable for the first 6 to die on your team to get stomped? The rest get to go home with a ribbon because the first 6 that died helped create an unfair situation?

[MechWarrior3671771]

"If your goal is to save time, though, by ending the game, then what you do is you quit the match (possibly while calling out your location to the enemy). This results in less time spent, in most situations, than running off the side of the map."

No, it really does not. Its seconds vs minutes.

I've spectated matches on maps like Tourmaline, Alpine and Terra Therma, where it would have taken the winning team minutes to cross the map to get to the last guy. But stepping out of bounds he ends the match in seconds instead of minutes. It really does save time. For everyone.

[Mystere]

Nathan Foxbane, on 17 June 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

Not the context of actively I was thinking of. I was thinking along the lines of a player who has been fighting their best or at least fighting rather than some mere token shots, sees they have a true no win situation and makes a decision to end the match on their own terms.

I find it difficult to believe that people are so incapable of understanding such a simple concept.